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  #8101  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2014, 7:40 PM
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Reading the comments on the Trib it just sounds like a bunch of miserable people who hate the LDS Church/Members who always find a way to bash them even when the story has nothing to do with the LDS Faith or these people just hate everything about Utah as a whole. Really, if these people are THAT miserable why live here? Seems to me a lot of the people who comment on the Trib would be much happier living else where. Never read so many comments from a bunch of bitter people then I have on the Trib.
     
     
  #8102  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2014, 7:50 PM
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Even with the owners being out of towners, it would be a very poor idea to let the Trib go to the deseret news. I know a few reporters that would quite before working for anything church owned. The guy that runs the Dnews is just trying to boost the Dnews numbers so he can put a feather in his cap.

What should happen is the Dnews should be absorbed into KSL.com. They can still put out the out dated paper but all the content the two media outlets produce should be under one roof (domain) and that being KSL.com.
     
     
  #8103  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2014, 8:04 PM
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The tower built along with the UPAC will not be tax exempt. Any church owned property that is used to make a profit pays property tax. This includes buildings, parking lots, apartments, etc. The only properties that do not are those that are purely built for a religious/institutional purpose such as Temple Square, chapels, and LDS Business College.
     
     
  #8104  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2014, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by AllOutOfBubbleGum View Post
Even with the owners being out of towners, it would be a very poor idea to let the Trib go to the deseret news. I know a few reporters that would quite before working for anything church owned. The guy that runs the Dnews is just trying to boost the Dnews numbers so he can put a feather in his cap.

What should happen is the Dnews should be absorbed into KSL.com. They can still put out the out dated paper but all the content the two media outlets produce should be under one roof (domain) and that being KSL.com.
This essentially already happened, hence why the former Deseret News building will have new tenants soon (if it doesn't already). All of Deseret Media (DNews, KSL) is now located at the Triad Center. While the two different websites are maintained, that makes sense since people have their own loyalties, why have only one when you have have two? If you pay attention to the two sites they often now have very similar stories. You can read more about it here:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12230812
     
     
  #8105  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2014, 8:29 PM
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Originally Posted by jtrent77 View Post
This essentially already happened, hence why the former Deseret News building will have new tenants soon (if it doesn't already). All of Deseret Media (DNews, KSL) is now located at the Triad Center. While the two different websites are maintained, that makes sense since people have their own loyalties, why have only one when you have have two? If you pay attention to the two sites they often now have very similar stories. You can read more about it here:

http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=12230812
It's not as buddy buddy as that article makes it seem. And a lot has changed since that announcement and I mean a lot. Dnews can use any KSL material they feel like using and never have to answer to anyone, sometimes borderline plagiarizing. KSL using Dnews writers ... well you might not want to pull that string to much.

I'm stopping there.
     
     
  #8106  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2014, 9:25 PM
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Originally Posted by asies1981 View Post
Although I believe the PAC tower will be taxable and not house church business and will remain part the LDS churches secular business investments, as someone who grew up in Utah I can see why people get nervous when the LDS church purchases more property in downtown SLC. Utah is notorious for not always being welcoming to people who aren't and don't want to be LDS or live an LDS lifestyle. But for decades SLC is and has been a cultural refuge for those that don't fit into mainstream LDS/Utah culture. I read today that the LDS church/Deseret News wants to purchase the SL Trib, those type of actions are going to make the large non LDS population in SLC nervous about an expanding LDS presence. You can be weary of the LDS church owning more of downtown without being anti-LDS and still appreciating their contributions to downtown. Although many people become bitter against the LDS church and/or fearful of their motives, there is value in not wanting just one major player in downtown. Part of what makes cities and downtowns so great is their diversity and greater acceptance of differing opinions. I can tell you that outside of the Mountain West most people think of SLC just as the mormon headquaters when it is so much more than that. If SLC wants to attract more companies and truly grow into a world class city, it needs more than just tall buildings but a truly diverse downtown. I believe SLC is heading in that direction (a la Goldman Sachs etc.) but if the city doesn't get some other big players besides the LDS church growth isn't going to be what it could and should be.
Thank you. This sums up my feelings exactly.
     
     
  #8107  
Old Posted Apr 10, 2014, 10:15 PM
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Originally Posted by SLC Projects View Post
Really, if these people are THAT miserable why live here? Seems to me a lot of the people who comment on the Trib would be much happier living else where.
I ask this all the time....
     
     
  #8108  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 3:58 AM
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I completely agree. I'm excited to have a potential new tallest, but if it doesn't bring more life and engagement to the streets it's on, it's kind of pointless. I'd love to see it on RWP primarily for the reason you gave, making more of a connection from Gateway to the rest of downtown. Hoping for the best.
South temple would make a better connection to gateway any day of the week. South temple is nicer safer and doesn't pass through a transient camp.. People are more likely to come out of a hotel and walk towards the up depot and ESA the walking down 200 witch doesn't look that good and has tons of bums hanging out.
     
     
  #8109  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 4:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Future Mayor View Post
I just got an e-mail notification that someone replied to my comment on the March 16th Trib article about the CCH. Seriously, doesn't that person have anything better to do than make comments on an article from 3 weeks ago.

All of his points were absolutely irrelevant; Saying that because the LDS church was the developer that it would be a non taxable building, comparing using TIF money for the CCH to using TIF money to build a grocery store across from an existing grocery store, and that the Grand/Little America were against the legislation. Sometimes idiotic, uninformed people make me laugh, other times they piss me off.



Don't get me wrong, I understand that people have differing opinions and valid arguments to back up their opinions, just like our S. Temple vs RWP discussion, neither is wrong and both have their positives and negatives. But when someone spouts off completely irrelevant and untrue arguments it just pisses me off.

I don't think it's ever been said the LDS has anything to do with this... I think some people think that the LDS church and Utah State government are the same entity... Oh well.. Let people be dumb...
     
     
  #8110  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 4:05 AM
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Originally Posted by ToysNoiz View Post
I ask this all the time....
actually many people do move away.. and never come back while some come back in hopes of changing the perceptions of utah where they grew up. Much of utah's population increases comes from birth rates. If it wasn't for the birth rates, the amount of people leaving would be much more pronounced. I think that utah loses a lot of talent because of the overwhelming LDS influence that asserts itself upon public policies and politics and even social dynamics. I've heard many people say they've turned down job offers in utah because they are fearful of their children being left out or ostracized because they are not LDS and so much revolves around the church in terms of activities. (people who do leave share their stories and that only fuels the fire. Like utah, I've noticed the same here in idaho in the past where the young creative class historically ends up leaving for greener pastures but for different reasons usually education and Job opportunity. With all of that said though, I think things are changing, and that change is being fueled by diversity… we really should not ever be saying "this is how it is here if you don't like it leave" that is exactly the attitude that turns people off and creates negative perceptions in people's minds.
     
     
  #8111  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 4:41 AM
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I don't think some of you people know what it's like to grow up non-LDS in Utah. It's a completely different feeling than anything in any other area of the country. While other states have their predominant faiths, the impact and influence isn't nearly at the level you see in Utah.

Catholics dominate much of the Northeast, and yet, Mitt Romney, a Mormon, managed to govern one of the largest Catholic-populated states in America. Utah hasn't had a non-Mormon governor since the 1950s. Growing up on the outside instinctively makes people push against the status quo.

The problem is that for many Utahns, being a non-Mormon has made us an outsider most our lives. Is their bitterness toward the LDS Church justified? Eh, probably not. But I can understand where it comes from. If you didn't grow up outside the Church (something that would get you 'what church' in any other state), it's hard to really understand.

Everything here still revolves around the LDS Church. This weekend, the top stories in all the newscasts and papers dealt with the LDS General Conference. Coworkers spent Monday talking about it like some major sporting event. When a missionary dies, even if they're not from Utah, it's played up here as something huge. When a new temple opens up, even if it's not in the U.S., the news here will cover it like it just happened down the street. Sure, I get that they're just catering to the majority. I understand, for over 60% of the state, this is BIG NEWS. But every news station, every radio station, every newspaper is tailored toward the majority. Even the Tribune, which has this perception of being independent, really isn't independent. The only independent news source Salt Lake has is Salt Lake City Weekly.

But I don't need to be told I am any less of a Utahn because I roll my eyes at a legislature and government that is dominated by Mormon ideologues who would rather rule this state based on prophecy and church doctrine than what this country was founded on. I don't buy that many of our elected officials don't do their church's bidding, even if indirectly or unofficially. Calling 'em out on that — is not being bigoted or anti-Mormon. Suggesting the Mormon Church probably has a bit too much influence in how this state is run isn't an attack - it's probably true.

It also doesn't mean I hate Utah. I've lived my whole life here. My dad might've been from Chicago, but my mom's parents lived in Utah. My grandpa taught at South High, attended USU and the U, played football for East High and went to Irving Schoolhouse in SugarHouse. My grandma went to St. Mary's of the Wasatch, an all-girls Catholic college next to the U, graduated from West High and was raised by the children of immigrants who settled in Salt Lake from Ireland in the early 1900s.

I hate, HATE when people say, "don't like it, leave it." It's so condescending and dismissive. As if our views aren't welcomed because they go counter to what you believe.

Utah is my home. I hate the government, but I still love my state. I hate how religion has too much influence in our daily lives - from liquor on down to defining who you can marry. I hate that our government is probably the most homogeneous government of any state in the country. I hate that all the power this state has, from the media on down to the elected officials, seems to be built around one philosophy and that diversity, for the most part there, has yet to catch up to the actual diversity in our state.

But none of that means I hate Utah.

Surely, though, people would have to logically oppose the LDS Church owning Salt Lake's two daily newspapers. That type of power grab, when they already own KSL, and most the news anchors and reporters belong to their faith, is not healthy for any state.

I love a great deal of what the LDS Church does. I think most their members are extremely good, caring people. But I also know the stigma of not being a member. I know how awkward and weird it is, at times, when everyone around you does this - and you don't.

Utah has to become more inclusive. It's interesting, the same people who bemoan the stereotypes that define the state also are blind to what creates 'em.
     
     
  #8112  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 4:42 AM
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Boise guy, I generally agree with what you are saying but it is a two way street. The negative comments and attitudes of some who are not LDS is not doing anything to help the situation either. Civility on both sides is needed to forge bridges.
     
     
  #8113  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 4:43 AM
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Originally Posted by Boiseguy View Post
we really should not ever be saying "this is how it is here if you don't like it leave" that is exactly the attitude that turns people off and creates negative perceptions in people's minds.
I agree 110%. We should try to push diversity forward and make things better for non-LDS related people. But there are those who are down right arrogant and, as said previously, will bring LDS loathing into every conversation. Those who constantly — and moan about Utah's issues, but do no thinking as to how to solve them, should really just leave. They are part of the problem, too. They keep Mormon Utah horror stories alive. I think a lot of those folks need to realize that Utah isn't the only state in the country with these issues. Sure Zion has a ton of unique issues, but many church and state issues are everywhere. Look at the Catholic reign in the North East.

When people leave the state, I think many will realize, "Wow, there are so many more clubs and places the get a drink and have an — here, but the government is basically the same."

POSTSCRIPT: I typed this before Comrade's response.
     
     
  #8114  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 4:53 AM
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Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
The only independent news source Salt Lake has is Salt Lake City Weekly.
Agreed. I don't read Des because it's all one sided, and I don't read Trib because it's all church news. City Weekly is more sophisticated and has a sense of humor. All of the — ads in Weekly really make it stick out from other Salt Lake newspapers.
     
     
  #8115  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 5:00 AM
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Originally Posted by mobius42 View Post
Boise guy, I generally agree with what you are saying but it is a two way street. The negative comments and attitudes of some who are not LDS is not doing anything to help the situation either. Civility on both sides is needed to forge bridges.
i get what you're saying believe me.. but put yourself in their shoes being a minority in what many times seems like a sea of madness and weirdness. I know of a colleague recently relocated to SLC who was denied an apartment in Bountiful not because he had bad credit, or smoked, or whatever.. but the landlord asked him if his wife and kids were LDS..when he responded no…the landlord simply said "I'm sorry but I'm looking for a tenant/tenants that share my beliefs so it isn't going to work out" … now however illegal that is or if it is even illegal at all in utah.. these things are happening. This happened 3 months ago. US vs THEM mentality resides in the minds of those who exist in the status quo when their points of view and values are challenged. I'm not saying that an equal and opposite bitter reaction is in any way justified, but the dynamic has it's own context and could be avoided altogether by being more inclusive and embracing diversity. That is all. Many born and bred LDS Utahans have a hard time adjusting to life outside utah out of their comfort zone of becoming a minority themselves...and are very vocal about how weird or different things are..believe me I've seen it.(in utah this.. in utah that..well ur not in utah anymore sweetheart we go out to breakfast and shopping on sunday) So too would someone moving TO utah. I just don't think we should ever stop challenging the status quo..everytime I visit SLC and see the diversity and more and more diversity each time.. I smile a little inside. Just saying
And by diversity I don't mean different colors of skin or nationalities.. I mean actual different cultures and points of view uninfluenced by LDS belief systems.

Last edited by Boiseguy; Apr 11, 2014 at 5:27 AM.
     
     
  #8116  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 5:20 AM
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My basic point that seems to have started this discussion, which has impressively stayed very civil, is that some people simply throw comments out, on newspaper comments threads, that have no relevance and are completely false. I'm not sure how my comments regarding the idiot that thought the LDS church had anything to do with the CCH someone got turned into questioning if 111 may or may not be taxable.

There can be very civil discussion, but it's the flat out lies on both of any issue that hurt the perception of both sides by outsiders. The ones that are bitter just for the sake of being bitter and blame everything on one side or the other, like the LDS church building the CCH, are the people that can go away for all I care.
     
     
  #8117  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 5:25 AM
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Originally Posted by Future Mayor View Post
My basic point that seems to have started this discussion, which has impressively stayed very civil, is that some people simply throw comments out, on newspaper comments threads, that have no relevance and are completely false. I'm not sure how my comments regarding the idiot that thought the LDS church had anything to do with the CCH someone got turned into questioning if 111 may or may not be taxable.

There can be very civil discussion, but it's the flat out lies on both of any issue that hurt the perception of both sides by outsiders. The ones that are bitter just for the sake of being bitter and blame everything on one side or the other, like the LDS church building the CCH, are the people that can go away for all I care.
No different on any website and it isn't just anti-Mormon idiots, either. Go read the KSL comment sections. They're awful, bigoted, racist and intolerable.
     
     
  #8118  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 5:31 AM
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Originally Posted by Comrade View Post
No different on any website and it isn't just anti-Mormon idiots, either. Go read the KSL comment sections. They're awful, bigoted, racist and intolerable.
right? read the idaho Statesman comments section.. or KTVB.com (boise news) it's full of ignorant, anti-californian, anti-mormon, anti-growth, you name it comments…
people are — idiots everywhere… I think it's important to change your perception, and challenge those around you to put yourself in outsiders shoes.. u don't have to agree with them.. but it takes the edge off of what could be a civil discussion or a bitter hateful exchange
My parents are LDS converts… and I am gay, me and both my siblings are atheists..and we think our parents are nuts..lol I'm not trying to sound like i'm on a high horse.. I just get lots of practice and the divides that influence culture in utah just really hit home and I don't even live there.. lol.. sorry I'll go back to idaho threads now

Last edited by Boiseguy; Apr 11, 2014 at 5:53 AM.
     
     
  #8119  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 5:43 AM
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It makes me sick when people in the majority try to play the victim card.

Also, there are plenty of well informed people who find much of the lds culture/belief/politics/etc to be disgusting. Just because one finds something dissagreeable doesn't mean they are ignorant on the subject matter.

but yes, most of the people who frequent the trib des and ksl comment threads are downright ignorant.

Last edited by Old&New; Apr 11, 2014 at 6:23 AM.
     
     
  #8120  
Old Posted Apr 11, 2014, 6:00 AM
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Deleted, non development related.
     
     
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