Calgary Public Transit II

[joe498]

Calgary Transit to add 20 more Bendy Buses:

http://metronews.ca/news/calgary/974850/...more-bendy-buses-in-2014-for-12-million/

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Just to throw another angle at this... I just spent 1 hour on the 301 "express" bus; about 35 minutes of it on 5th ave to travel 5 blocks. No sign of an accident, just heavy traffic and loads of buses. Given a 20 year time frame, does 5th ave have the capacity for all the buses that are going to be on it? It already seams to be beyond capacity, with bendy buses blocking north/south traffic at intersections. If there is some sort of busway up centre, this is only going to get worse.

I've been playing that mini metro game, and I keep getting thoughts of the game ending when I hit around 650 passengers and finally they all get fed up! Calgary's future?

This. This, this, this this this.

5th avenue has ridiculously slow traffic, almost exclusively caused by buses trying to turn left onto Centre Street. If we put in bus only lanes and a dedicated left turn signal at centre and 5th, we can alleviate much of this congestion.

[Halofire]

Originally Posted by fusili

This. This, this, this this this.

5th avenue has ridiculously slow traffic, almost exclusively caused by buses trying to turn left onto Centre Street. If we put in bus only lanes and a dedicated left turn signal at centre and 5th, we can alleviate much of this congestion.

I completely agree. In fact, I kinda wonder if the benefit of NCLRT over a proper dedicated lane BRT is actually worth it if you are to just build it at grade. The speed shouldn't be significantly different and you may lose a bit of capacity, but you gain a massive amount of flexibility in how you service the corridor.

The good thing is that since the BRT will be built as an short-term solution, we will see how it plays out.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Halofire

I completely agree. In fact, I kinda wonder if the benefit of NCLRT over a proper dedicated lane BRT is actually worth it if you are to just build it at grade. The speed shouldn't be significantly different and you may lose a bit of capacity, but you gain a massive amount of flexibility in how you service the corridor.

The good thing is that since the BRT will be built as an short-term solution, we will see how it plays out.

The downtown portion would not be at grade on any NC LRT routing. Even a Nose Creek route interlined with the 202 downtown would, at some point, require grade separation downtown. If the Greenline were to remain a BRT forrever we'd need a bus tunnel downtown. A bus lane on 5 Ave would be a short term solution.

The last NC transit study, from the mid 2000s or so, forecast a need for LRT in Nose Creek in the 20 year timeframe because bus capacity would be maxed. If any thing, ridership has grown faster than the estimate.

[Northski]

An alternative to building a busway on center st. is to charge a rush hour toll or a congestion charge to cross the center st bridge when its busy. The huge amount of right hand and left hand turning movements along the corridor means that its difficult to make a bus only lane work and to enforce it. A congestion charge would have a significantly lower capital cost than a bus only lane which requires only a toll gantry over the bridge and an electronic billing system. The toll revenue could be used to increase bus frequency, repave the street more frequently and improve the sidewalks and to help fund the NCLRT. Car drivers who paid the toll would benefit from shorter commutes times and bus riders would benefit from more frequency and quicker service. A toll of between 1-2 dollars would probably be enough to cut the number of cars by 20%. Some drivers would convert to the bus while others would use different bridges to get downtown.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

The downtown portion would not be at grade on any NC LRT routing. Even a Nose Creek route interlined with the 202 downtown would, at some point, require grade separation downtown. If the Greenline were to remain a BRT forrever we'd need a bus tunnel downtown. A bus lane on 5 Ave would be a short term solution.

The last NC transit study, from the mid 2000s or so, forecast a need for LRT in Nose Creek in the 20 year timeframe because bus capacity would be maxed. If any thing, ridership has grown faster than the estimate.

I agree, I firmly believe that the center street (along 5th & 6th Ave) transit lanes need to be completed within 3 years, at very minimum from DT to 20th. This really isn't a hugely complex project if we can complete a project like the airport tunnel in a short time frame, why can't we put in a few curbs and signals in a lot less?

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Northski

The huge amount of right hand and left hand turning movements along the corridor means that its difficult to make a bus only lane work and to enforce it.

Far too many access points is a problem on many roads in Calgary and is an easy problem to fix - just close them! It slightly reduces access, but turning movements will be difficult anyway if it isn't a signalised intersection. Not only will the main road be improved greatly, but cut-through traffic on residential streets will be eliminated while pedestrian traffic can still access them. Win-win.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by Northski

An alternative to building a busway on center st. is to charge a rush hour toll or a congestion charge to cross the center st bridge when its busy. The huge amount of right hand and left hand turning movements along the corridor means that its difficult to make a bus only lane work and to enforce it. A congestion charge would have a significantly lower capital cost than a bus only lane which requires only a toll gantry over the bridge and an electronic billing system. The toll revenue could be used to increase bus frequency, repave the street more frequently and improve the sidewalks and to help fund the NCLRT. Car drivers who paid the toll would benefit from shorter commutes times and bus riders would benefit from more frequency and quicker service. A toll of between 1-2 dollars would probably be enough to cut the number of cars by 20%. Some drivers would convert to the bus while others would use different bridges to get downtown.

A curb separated transit lane shouldn't cause significant issues with turning movements. The priority lights at 10th Street and 16th Ave have little affect on the other traffic through the intersection and would have even less if the transit lane continued on the other side of the intersection. If the lane continued you could have all straight movements go at the same time.

All but 12 Ave would be purely transit straight through with a delayed turn signals for traffic. 12th would need a transit priority turn signal triggered only by the #2, you could place a lay by just south of the intersection such that the #2 would wait till the next cycle if it arrives after the light changes to green so as to not block other buses (not sure what technology you could use to enable this though). In fact it's likely that the transit lane would improve traffic flow on Centre and decrease issues with turning movements as right now you have many buses moving into the center lanes to bypass backed up turning traffic in the right lane.

Originally Posted by milomilo

Far too many access points is a problem on many roads in Calgary and is an easy problem to fix - just close them! It slightly reduces access, but turning movements will be difficult anyway if it isn't a signalised intersection. Not only will the main road be improved greatly, but cut-through traffic on residential streets will be eliminated while pedestrian traffic can still access them. Win-win.

This too

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Northski

An alternative to building a busway on center st. is to charge a rush hour toll or a congestion charge to cross the center st bridge when its busy. The huge amount of right hand and left hand turning movements along the corridor means that its difficult to make a bus only lane work and to enforce it. A congestion charge would have a significantly lower capital cost than a bus only lane which requires only a toll gantry over the bridge and an electronic billing system. The toll revenue could be used to increase bus frequency, repave the street more frequently and improve the sidewalks and to help fund the NCLRT. Car drivers who paid the toll would benefit from shorter commutes times and bus riders would benefit from more frequency and quicker service. A toll of between 1-2 dollars would probably be enough to cut the number of cars by 20%. Some drivers would convert to the bus while others would use different bridges to get downtown.

And the Edmonton Trail, lower deck of Centre, Louise and 14th street bridges would all become gridlock. If we are to use a toll, it has to be comprehensive for the entire downtown.

[Halofire]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

The downtown portion would not be at grade on any NC LRT routing. Even a Nose Creek route interlined with the 202 downtown would, at some point, require grade separation downtown. If the Greenline were to remain a BRT forrever we'd need a bus tunnel downtown. A bus lane on 5 Ave would be a short term solution.

The last NC transit study, from the mid 2000s or so, forecast a need for LRT in Nose Creek in the 20 year timeframe because bus capacity would be maxed. If any thing, ridership has grown faster than the estimate.

I have no issue with a bus tunnel. There are minor issues you would have to work out, but otherwise no different than an LRT tunnel.

The study you mention, I believe (not certain) refers to bus capacity in normal traffic lanes. The problem I see is that regardless of what vehicle is used, by building it at grade they are sacrificing one for the other, and I don't believe that trains offer a significant capacity difference than a constant stream of articulated buses on dedicated lanes. The benefit being that they can be re-routed in the case of an accident or branch off to service a larger area. Additionally, its easier to have a dedicated bus to a given community during rush hour to maximize efficiency.

Have a look at this presentation from RouteAhead's website. At grade is what they are mostly considering as they are too concerned about the cost of tunneling (due to difficult geology). While there would be mostly underground downtown, it wouldn't necessarily happen until reaching 7th ave SW. Nose Creek is out, and so is the idea of merging in on the NE line to enter downtown.

Let me be clear, I'd absolutely prefer a tunneled LRT DT to ~20th Ave North, as it would be a clear addition to capacity of movement to downtown, but an LRT running on Centre at grade doesn't make much sense.

[Fuzz]

Agreed with Halofire, may as well stick with the flexibility(and cost) of buses up centre if they aren't going to grade separate the LRT. Doesn't seam much point to bother, other than to pretend things have improved when in reality they just end up closing a bunch of intersections and put a big pedestrian barrier up the middle of the city.

[Halofire]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Agreed with Halofire, may as well stick with the flexibility(and cost) of buses up centre if they aren't going to grade separate the LRT. Doesn't seam much point to bother, other than to pretend things have improved when in reality they just end up closing a bunch of intersections and put a big pedestrian barrier up the middle of the city.

I think what may have happened is that the committee doing the high-level review at this point has gone too far down the rabbit hole and in order to meet a wide variety of 'requirements' has compromised the main goal of transit - to move people efficiently. TOD, low floor boarding, '"complete street" design, are all great concepts but have dominated the conversation more than capacity, speed, frequency and costs.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by Halofire

I think what may have happened is that the committee doing the high-level review at this point has gone too far down the rabbit hole and in order to meet a wide variety of 'requirements' has compromised the main goal of transit - to move people efficiently. TOD, low floor boarding, '"complete street" design, are all great concepts but have dominated the conversation more than capacity, speed, frequency and costs.

Step one is frequency above all else, if service (bus, train, or drone) isn't frequent it won't get used.

[Northski]

Originally Posted by fusili

And the Edmonton Trail, lower deck of Centre, Louise and 14th street bridges would all become gridlock. If we are to use a toll, it has to be comprehensive for the entire downtown.

I agree with you, its easier to explain who benefits and who pays with a center street bridge congestion charge. If bus only lanes are implemented on center street and enforced there would also be a shift of drivers onto the other bridges and presumably the non bus lanes will be more congested.

[Fuzz]

As much as I hate to say it, maybe the best option is the Nose Creek alignment, swinging back west beyond McKnight or wherever it is appropriate. Buses can continue to service south of there, vastly reducing the burden on Centre Street. In 30 years, or whenever we get around to it, a proper grade separated line can be built, and either maintain Nose Creek alignment as a spur for non-stop downtown, or remove it, or route it to the Airport.

[simster3]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

As much as I hate to say it, maybe the best option is the Nose Creek alignment, swinging back west beyond McKnight or wherever it is appropriate. Buses can continue to service south of there, vastly reducing the burden on Centre Street. In 30 years, or whenever we get around to it, a proper grade separated line can be built, and either maintain Nose Creek alignment as a spur for non-stop downtown, or remove it, or route it to the Airport.

The problem with that route is the entrance to downtown and its alignment once there. If it were to go on the 202, it would then be on an already over capacity corridor. If you made a new alignment it would be more costly than the current proposals.

[Halofire]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

As much as I hate to say it, maybe the best option is the Nose Creek alignment, swinging back west beyond McKnight or wherever it is appropriate. Buses can continue to service south of there, vastly reducing the burden on Centre Street. In 30 years, or whenever we get around to it, a proper grade separated line can be built, and either maintain Nose Creek alignment as a spur for non-stop downtown, or remove it, or route it to the Airport.

Not the best option, as it puts further strain on the blue line and doesn't provide a significant value-add to the majority of the route.

Investing in grade separating McKnight and 16th ave from Centre Street (even if it is just for transit) and 90% of the bottleneck is removed. Figuring out DT is an issue regardless of technology used, but again, LRT limits the options drastically.

[mellbell416]

I know that we have discussed inner city bus routes before, and this article lends sopport for the idea along with a proposal to toffer discounts based on means, not age..

http://www.calgaryherald.com/opinion/edi...it+should+implemented/9522096/story.html

[MalcolmTucker]

Makes sense to me.

[mellbell416]

Sounds reasonable to me too. Does anyone know of anywhere where they apply transit discounts based on income? I have only ever seen student/child and senior discounts...