Calgary Stoney Trail [Ring Road]

[MalcolmTucker]

The Green Line is at least two years out from a one and a half to two year tender process.

[speedog]

Of the estimated $5 billion for each project - how much is city monies? The ring road is all provincial, no?

Originally Posted by MasterG

My concern is the lack of transparency around how this decision was made:

SW Ring Road
(estimated ~5 billion)
Pros:
- 20,000 - 30,000 users per day
- goods movement and some trucking
- Potential to relieve congestion on Glenmore and provide an alternative (100,000 users per day on causway

Cons
- Lack of growth in areas near road mean that trip growth in the future is constrained
- Expensive land acquisition
- Does little to promote sustainability
- Relatively small catchment area (SW neighbourhoods on the east side, very minimal development in Tsuu Tina Nation)
- Doesn't align with existing Trip patterns or connects to any activity centres

Green Line LRT NC-SE
(estimated ~ 5 Billion)
Pros
-50,000 -100,000 users a day
- connection of primary growth areas (Inner city, Far North, Deep SE)
- connection to major activity centres (Downtown, Quarry Park, South Hospital, Foothills industrial park)
- Relieves congestion on Deerfoot (100 - 200,000 users / day) by providing alternatives on much of same route

Cons
- Expensive land acquisition
- SE portion travels through many low-trip generation areas before Quarry Park
- No ability to facilitate goods movement


I am no planner this is just a hobby: how could anyone argue that the benefit for 50,000+ users a day, not to mention those that continue to drive with less cars on Deerfoot (trucking included) could possibly be a worse deal than the SW Ring Road?

I am not saying the SW ring road is useless All I am saying is that for that price we should be getting a better deal. It's not like these are pie in the sky ideas, the Green Line plan exists and has studies on it. It will be built eventually, and it will help many more people get around than the SW Ring Road will ever.

[O-tacular]

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Agreed. Peace out guys, lets pick up this bickering Monday!

We can get into taxation levels, division of powers between governments and the various levels of public consultation that is deemed appropriate for infrastructure projects. Exciting!!

Everyone study up facts and studies that only support your own side of the arguments on the weekend and we will meet back here in a few days

[O-tacular]

Was generally just a reaction to the statement that we're 4.5 years out from tendering construction of the green line.

Originally Posted by RicoLance21

This is exactly the stuff I've read in the comments section of newspapers.

West LRT. It helps out the 30,000 people who use it, but if you don't live on that side of town, it doesn't help you at all. West LRT does nothing to reduce vehicular traffic on the east side of town.

Stoney Trail SE. It massively helps out the 30,000 people who use it, but if you don't live on that side of town, it does nothing to reduce vehicular traffic on Crowchild Trail, for example.

For any "roads are useless" type of mentality the same argument can be made the other way. I refrain from posting in the transit thread because I have nothing of value to contribute, maybe you should consider the same for this thread, a thread about Stoney Trail and not trains.

[VIce]

We could just make Stoney Trail SE a CTrain route so that everyone is upset equally?

[RicoLance21]

Originally Posted by Acey

West LRT. It helps out the 30,000 people who use it, but if you don't live on that side of town, it doesn't help you at all. West LRT does nothing to reduce vehicular traffic on the east side of town.

Stoney Trail SE. It massively helps out the 30,000 people who use it, but if you don't live on that side of town, it does nothing to reduce vehicular traffic on Crowchild Trail, for example.

For any "roads are useless" type of mentality the same argument can be made the other way. I refrain from posting in the transit thread because I have nothing of value to contribute, maybe you should consider the same for this thread, a thread about Stoney Trail and not trains.

Still, I think that stretch of the road, SW Stoney, should not be worth $5B. For that money, we can convert Route 306 (Westbrook to Quarry Park) to LRT and build a new SWLRT leg from downtown to Mt. Royal U. How's that for helping the Southwest? As for "roads are useless" type of mentality, I'd say freeways are useless if they lead to downtown, and I think upgrading Crowchild from 17th Ave SW to 5th Ave NW to a free-flow would considerably hurt ridership on the NW LRT leg. MacLeod Trail will be fine the way it is indefinitely.

[5seconds]

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To ask if they've done CBA is almost an insult to the people they've paid so much to do CBA.

[5seconds]

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[MasterG]

Originally Posted by 5seconds

I think the point is that these kinds of things have not been made public, so the perception is that this kind of analysis has maybe not been undertaken (or revised recently in light of current conditions etc.). I think the other point is that when this deal was in the region of $1.3 billion, people might have a certain view of the benefit vs. cost, but with that number hitting $5 billion, that balance will have changed for some.

It's also interesting that while some project proponents have to fight tooth-and-nail to get funding, something with this kind of price tag is accepted as a given. I'm not making a judgement call, it just doesn't seem to happen that often.

This is the most interesting comment of the article, is Markusoff accurate?

"The last major public evaluation of the ring dates from 1974"

A quick search suggests that Calgary's population was ~430,000 in 1974. That's a lot of public that didn't exist at the time to be part of the debate on whether a SW ring road is the best public investment. Not to mention the technology and demographic shifts of the past 40 years that have changed the options and way that that the city can develop which didn't exist in 1974.

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by Acey

To ask if they've done CBA is almost an insult to the people they've paid so much to do CBA.

And to ask if wizards exist is an insult to wizards, which is even worse; wizards will turn you into a toad if you cross them. But talking in a huff about wizards doesn't make them real. I've never seen cost-benefit analysis done for any provincial transportation project in Calgary, including any inch of the ring road. I know that costs have been estimated and volumes forecast, but I don't believe costs have ever been compared to benefits nor have provincial transportation projects been evaluated against equivalent spending on municipal projects, which is the real issue that should be evaluated and hasn't.

A series of Google searches produces more provincial documentation on cost-benefit analysis for BSE testing on cattle than on transportation projects. I'd be grateful if you could produce such a report, or any evidence beyond innuendo that such a report has ever existed. I'm not alone, either:

Originally Posted by Mayor Nenshi

“There’s no question that the ring road will have exceptional benefits and I’m very happy about it, but it is interesting that it was never been weighed, as far as I know, against other transportation priorities.”

Originally Posted by MasterG

This is the most interesting comment of the article, is Markusoff accurate?

"The last major public evaluation of the ring dates from 1974"

A quick search suggests that Calgary's population was ~430,000 in 1974. That's a lot of public that didn't exist at the time to be part of the debate on whether a SW ring road is the best public investment. Not to mention the technology and demographic shifts of the past 40 years that have changed the options and way that that the city can develop which didn't exist in 1974.

I wouldn't be surprised if the last comparison that traded off this freeway versus other transportation projects in Calgary was that old -- and in 1974 the ring road went through what is now Nose Hill Park as an example of how much the city has changed. All the City work I know of going back to Go Plan (20 years ago) assumed that the road was a thing that would be built by the province at some point once a deal had been made with the Tsuu T'ina in the provincially designated ring road corridor. I don't think any study has been done in that time looking specifically at what could be done with the SW ring road not on the table as an eventuality.

Note that this isn't the same as no studies having been done -- they have, within the last 10 years, including public information sessions, etc. But the tenor has always been "we're building this road; do we want express lanes through this section? we're building this road; which movements at this interchange should be flyovers?", and done with a primary eye towards developing a maximum transportation corridor for negotiations with the Tsuu T'ina.

For $5B, we could probably build not only the Green line, but also the Stephen Ave Subway. I would be shocked if the residents of Calgary as a whole chose to spend $5B on a freeway with very limited benefits versus spending the same money on city-wide transit improvements that could benefit all four quadrants. Honestly, I don't even think the SW quadrant as a whole would pick the SWRR. But there are communities who would prefer it, obviously, as well as land holders who can't build suburbs on their land without it. It is ridiculous to spend this kind of money based on priorities from two generations ago.

[MalcolmTucker]

If you think not building the SWRR would free up a full $5 billion, I have a bridge I want to sell you . Once the ring road is done, how many more road projects in the city really need to be done? maybe 5 or 6 interchanges? By creating a high capacity alternative, we can stop debottlenecking at greater expense (remember the cost is being amortized over 30 years) within the city limits.

[Socguy]

The thing that people keep forgetting about the ring road is that it is a provincial project built for provincial priorities. We look at it from a city prospective and how it can benefit cars getting around the city. While this is nice and I'm sure the provence doesn't mind selling those aspects of the road, we should realize that the primary purpose of this road is to benefit industry and ensure the smooth movement of goods and resources (it's a TUC as well!) around and through this region of the provence. Now, will a train do more to benefit the movement of the citizens of through Calgary? Maybe, but the train does nothing for industry, now or in the future. To the provence, Deerfoot is becoming untenable for this purpose so it's building stoney and washing it's hands of the 'foot.

[Oliver Klozov]

Originally Posted by Socguy

..... We look at it from a city prospective and how it can benefit cars getting around the city. ....

As a non-Calgarian that lives west of the city, I often travel to points east of Calgary like Strathmore, Brooks, Medicine Hat, etc. I don't even consider 16 Ave as an option any more and just take NW/NE Stoney around. I also travel to Okotoks, High River, Lethbridge a lot and for me SW Stoney will be fantastic.

I think one of the biggest benefits of SW Stoney will be the trucks to/from the west will use it rather than Glenmore to access/egress the growing industrial areas in the SE.

SW Stoney -

[5seconds]

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[fusili]

Interesting that the 2008 study predicted 11K vehicles would use the road during the peak. That is absolute peanuts and less than a third of the volume of transit riders on Centre street alone.

I am still firmly in the "waste of money" camp on this one.

[Mazrim]

The article is correct but there have been more recent stuff done for sure, just not publicly, as part of the evaluation of options when it appeared that no deal was available. If they did release the numbers, the contractors bidding know what the province is looking at and can play with that to increase the cost for their benefit, I would assume.

The comparison to the larger portions of Anthony Henday is applicable still, as they came in at $1.6B and $1.8B with no land acquisition costs. $2B per portion in 2016-17 dollars (guessing) makes sense on the road length, number of interchanges, and amount of bridges needed (Bow River, Elbow River, Fish Creek, etc). Add in the Tsuu T'ina deal and you're hitting $5 Billion.

Much like the Airport tunnel, this is now or never, and the government would be foolish not to do it.

[joe498]

I realise it was kind of a now or never kind of thing to get the Tsuu T'ina deal but Calgary really doesn't need the SW Stoney right now, rather we do need the NC / SE LRT.

The future is public transit, not more cars.