Calgary Stoney Trail [Ring Road]

[Oliver Klozov]

Originally Posted by Spring2008

With 5billion the city could prob build the SE, North Central lines and the subway. How much use is this section of the ring road even going to get?

I'll use it a lot too!

I often need to travel from west of Calgary to somewhere S or SE of Calgary like Okotoks. Right now, it's always a decision of which route will be less painful at any given time, around on Hwy 22 through Bragg Creek and then 22X over to MacLeod or TCH-Sarcee-Glenmore-Deerfoot. (I gave up on Hwy 8 to Glenmore - too many trucks and too many lights now)

I think that W-SW Stoney will be at least the 2nd busiest section behind the NW right from the start.

[Spring2008]

2 people out of the 1000 calgary ssp sample size, for $5Billion?

Case closed!

[RWin]

Originally Posted by Spring2008

2 people out of the 1000 calgary ssp sample size, for $5Billion?

Case closed!

The NE leg of the ring road was a waste of money for me.

[lubicon]

Originally Posted by Spring2008

With 5billion the city could prob build the SE, North Central lines and the subway. How much use is this section of the ring road even going to get?

I will use it literally every day for my commute. And so will the thousands of other vehicles I share the road with every day. Plus all kinds of commercial truck traffic that is coming out of the industrial areas in the SE and heading west.

[Socguy]

Originally Posted by Spring2008

With 5billion the city could prob build the SE, North Central lines and the subway. How much use is this section of the ring road even going to get?

Don't get me wrong, the city needs all those projects and more but the SWRR project is a necessity. As for how much use it's going to get, I will go out on a limb and say way more than the SE portion when it opened... I recall someone here mentioning that they plan to have much of it 4 lanes in each direction on opening day. If so, I suspect heavy use is the way the Provence feels as well...

[Mazrim]

Originally Posted by RWin

The NE leg of the ring road was a waste of money for me.

The NE was appropriate and proactive for a number of reasons:
- Connectivity. If they built the NW and SE first, then we'd have a discontinuous roadway for a period of time, which would be very weird. It made sense to build it next since they were finishing up the NW.
- Timing. The SW wasn't going to be done any time soon, so the obvious direction to go next was the NE. The funding was there, so using it sooner than later saves us money in the long run (inflation).
- Networks. Offloading cross-town traffic from 16th Avenue, especially trucks, was a factor in doing the NE as well.

The NE might be the least used section, but it certainly has helped the area. They certainly didn't overbuild it for opening day. It might need widening soon though, since the NW is being widened now, and SE Stoney has 3 lanes in either direction for large stretches.

[milomilo]

Yes it's expensive, and perhaps we'd get better value out of other projects, but this is the only chance we have to build this road. If we don't, we'll kick ourselves in 30 years for penny pinching and have to fix the problem at greater expense. I'm happy the province is being proactive.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by milomilo

Yes it's expensive, and perhaps we'd get better value out of other projects, but this is the only chance we have to build this road. If we don't, we'll kick ourselves in 30 years for penny pinching and have to fix the problem at greater expense. I'm happy the province is being proactive.

Same could be said for a large number of other projects too

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by Full Mountain

Same could be said for a large number of other projects too

I agree, but this project is unique in the fact that if we don't build it now the door will be closed on it forever.

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by milomilo

I agree, but this project is unique in the fact that if we don't build it now the door will be closed on it forever.

I doubt it. If anything this is one that can wait. Tsuu Tina land was undeveloped, wide ROW preserved already for most of it. no significant suburban developments that would generate trips along it are planned for a while on any scale requiring such a massive investment. I would agree you might as well buy the land now that the Tsuu Tina agree, but that is only 500 million (still shockingly alot!) of the budget. The road itself could easily wait while higher value projects are funded.

Meanwhile North, Centre city and SE are seeing the most growth and will continue for a while.

I still haven't seen any documentation or planning on what the proposed trip count is expected to be or any justification. The AB Transportation website (i.e. AB Roads) I have searched on and there is no documentation or studies provided other than the proposed maps. No cost estimates, no trip generation projects, no population projections of the area. That is a lot of money to spend with shocking little or hard to find documentation on why we should spend it over anything else. It makes the city website a transparent beacon of openness and public information in comparison.

Anyone have anything on that?

[5seconds]

...

[craner]

Yeah, it took 60? Years to achieve an agreement with the Nation. We have to build this road now or the opportunity will likely not come again.
I for one am looking forward to using it.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by craner

Yeah, it took 60? Years to achieve an agreement with the Nation. We have to build this road now or the opportunity will likely not come again.
I for one am looking forward to using it.

Isn't there a clause in the agreement with the Tsuu Tina that if the SWRR construction on the Tsuu Tina land hasn't started by 2020, the agreement can be cancelled by either party and the lands in question revert back to the original Tsuu Tina, Province and Fed ownership.

as if the agreement never happened.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Isn't there a clause in the agreement with the Tsuu Tina that if the SWRR construction on the Tsuu Tina land hasn't started by 2020, the agreement can be cancelled by either party and the lands in question revert back to the original Tsuu Tina, Province and Fed ownership.

as if the agreement never happened.

That's my understanding. Which is why it would be a fail of utterly epic proportions if it isn't built. Luckily, everything seems to be falling into place nicely.

[5seconds]

...

[RicoLance21]

$5B is a sh!tload of money for infrastructure that I am never going to use!

Sorry, but those C-Train expansion haters have been peeving me way too much...

Originally Posted by RicoLance21

$5B is a sh!tload of money for infrastructure that I am never going to use!

So is $8B for the trains and whatever other transit I'm not going to use either.

[RicoLance21]

Originally Posted by Acey

So is $8B for the trains and whatever other transit I'm not going to use either.

This is exactly the stuff I've read in the comments section of newspapers.

[eggbert]

Originally Posted by RicoLance21

This is exactly the stuff I've read in the comments section of newspapers.

Your first mistake was reading the comment section in a newspapers! But how was your comment any different? I never use the C-Train but I'm all for the C-train expansions being discussed here. I will use SW Stoney Trail probably everyday so of course I'm all for it proceeding asap.

All of these projects benefit citizens in different parts of the city so everyone has to realize that sometimes a project will benefit them directly and sometimes it won't, but in the end all of these projects benefit Calgary as a whole.

Also, why even bother talking about Stoney anymore? The construction of this road will proceed so it might be better to figure out how to move forward rather than whine about the money being wasted to build it.

I relate this this debate of the C-Train vs Ring Road to the Suburban vs Urban debate. Yawn!

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by eggbert

Your first mistake was reading the comment section in a newspapers! But how was your comment any different? I never use the C-Train but I'm all for the C-train expansions being discussed here. I will use SW Stoney Trail probably everyday so of course I'm all for it proceeding asap.

All of these projects benefit citizens in different parts of the city so everyone has to realize that sometimes a project will benefit them directly and sometimes it won't, but in the end all of these projects benefit Calgary as a whole.

Also, why even bother talking about Stoney anymore? The construction of this road will proceed so it might be better to figure out how to move forward rather than whine about the money being wasted to build it.

I relate this this debate of the C-Train vs Ring Road to the Suburban vs Urban debate. Yawn!

My concern is the lack of transparency around how this decision was made:

SW Ring Road
(estimated ~5 billion)
Pros:
- 20,000 - 30,000 users per day
- goods movement and some trucking
- Potential to relieve congestion on Glenmore and provide an alternative (100,000 users per day on causway

Cons
- Lack of growth in areas near road mean that trip growth in the future is constrained
- Expensive land acquisition
- Does little to promote sustainability
- Relatively small catchment area (SW neighbourhoods on the east side, very minimal development in Tsuu Tina Nation)
- Doesn't align with existing Trip patterns or connects to any activity centres

Green Line LRT NC-SE
(estimated ~ 5 Billion)
Pros
-50,000 -100,000 users a day
- connection of primary growth areas (Inner city, Far North, Deep SE)
- connection to major activity centres (Downtown, Quarry Park, South Hospital, Foothills industrial park)
- Relieves congestion on Deerfoot (100 - 200,000 users / day) by providing alternatives on much of same route

Cons
- Expensive land acquisition
- SE portion travels through many low-trip generation areas before Quarry Park
- No ability to facilitate goods movement


I am no planner this is just a hobby: how could anyone argue that the benefit for 50,000+ users a day, not to mention those that continue to drive with less cars on Deerfoot (trucking included) could possibly be a worse deal than the SW Ring Road?

I am not saying the SW ring road is useless All I am saying is that for that price we should be getting a better deal. It's not like these are pie in the sky ideas, the Green Line plan exists and has studies on it. It will be built eventually, and it will help many more people get around than the SW Ring Road will ever.