Calgary Public Transit II

[joe498]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

I shall try my best to give a summary because, as you mentioned, the changes have been fast and furious over the last few months.

- SE Portion: The Functional Planning for the SETWAY/SE LRT has been complete. The City is now in the Engineering/Detail design phase. This will be complete in 2017. Construction will begin on the SETWAY shortly after. The SETWAY Bus Transit-way will be complete from the Downtown core to Douglas Glen by 2021. Other small investments will be made south of Douglas Glen to help improve travel times as part of the project. Without any new funding, LRT conversion to Douglas Glen is seen as happening in 20 years and full LRT build out to Seton will be in 30 years. Total cost of the SE LRT is approximately $2 Billion.

Yeesh, I can't even begin to imagine what Deerfoot will be like if we don't even get a bus system in place by 2021...

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

Is that at all realistic? The Airport tunnel was what, $400 million built on empty unused space. Will an LRT through our active downtown with stations really be cheaper? I'm suspicious...

Agreed. I thought the 8th Ave Subway was tentatively going to cost $1 Billion. How could the 2nd street subway be only 1/4 of the cost?

[MalcolmTucker]

The cost estimate was for a pretty short tunnel compared to what will actually be built (with an at grade crossing of Macleod Trail iirc). One underground station, maybe two? Stations are a huge cost.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Agreed. I thought the 8th Ave Subway was tentatively going to cost $1 Billion. How could the 2nd street subway be only 1/4 of the cost?

8 Ave Subway requires boring for the entire length due to the proposed position of the tunnel.

2nd Street tunnel can be completed using cut and cover for most of the tunnel, which reduces the cost.

[lineman]

It would then be advantageous to utilize the boring machine to tunnel to 20th Ave N (providing that becomes the preferred way up the bluff) as I'm sure the cost of transporting and assembling the thing isn't cheap.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Ferreth

Some calculations to put this into perspective:

So, let's call the cost of the whole green line $4Billion. We just need to assess every man, woman, and child living in the city $3,333.33 and we can build it tomorrow. Want some more tunneling? Add another $Billion for $833.33 per person.

Yes, that is a ridiculous way to fund something, but illustrates the scale of funding compared to the size of the city.

Forget about the Feds bailing us out. At best, Toronto got 1/3rd of a line funded, the Spadina extension got $700 out of $2600 millions, or 1/4.

Alberta Government funding? First we have to split evenly between Edmonton and Calgary, because politically that's how things are done around here. That works out to $2000 per person in our half of the province.

Let's stick with our Alberta example, and really rub salt in the wound, tally up the per household cost (average size 2.5) we are at $5000, and since a certain percentage of households will not be able to pay, or pay a lot less, I'll say the average would be more along the lines of $6000

If the Feds kick in a 1/4, and perhaps we tap rainy day funding a bit we are down to $4500 per household. Over 10 years, $450 per household, each year. About a 20% increase in taxes, if we assume every household pays, directly or indirectly.

My point is, even with tax increases to help pay for all of this, we are not going to get a $4 billion dollar line built in the next 10 years, barring political financial suicide*. The 20-30 time frame is realistic, even if we don't like it.

* Personally, I'd be happy with %20 higher taxes, for what it could pay for, not just green line but many things beyond that. But too many people don't look beyond our city and realize we have low taxes, but are paying an ever increasing price in lack of infrastructure. They just see that their property tax went up %5 again and scream bloody murder. Perhaps as traffic and transit become ever more grid-locked some will to spend and fix these problems will emerge.

I have a simple solution. It involves not building the SWRR and it provides all the money for the Green Line. What is the Ring Road at now (including all legs) something like $15 billion??

[Fuzz]

So if they plan on a 2nd st tunnel, how do you get the train back over to center st to go up the bridge....

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

The cost estimate was for a pretty short tunnel compared to what will actually be built (with an at grade crossing of Macleod Trail iirc). One underground station, maybe two? Stations are a huge cost.

I was under the impression that it couldn't be buried until after Macleod because of conflicts with the existing S LRT tunnel. So to separate grades at Macleod would require elevating the line.

It was definitely worked out with two under ground stations. I imagine the costing was something like 900m of underground, 2 125m stations @ 110 million each and 650m of cut and cover @ ~100 million per km. those are relatively realistic numbers. They may have even estimated a cheaper station for Eau Claire than the one that includes transfers to other lines, who knows.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Cage

McKnight to downtown would be an incomplete line that would not connect anything togethe and would still require a lot of improvements to the bust transit network. The catchment area for NCLRT is from areas north of McKnight.

Same goes for SELRT, the major catchment areas are south of Quarry Park. Just getting to QP would make the LRt unviable.

Where is this info coming from? Because when I look at the Civic Census, it tells me 90K people live in communities south of Beddington and 60K people live in communities north of Beddington.

[fusili]

I am starting to be more and more convinced that an at-grade alignment on Centre street could work. This study (http://www.steerdaviesgleave.com/casestu...tions-along-vancouvers-broadway-corridor) by Steer Davies Gleave for the Broadway corridor in Vancouver illustrates how you can handle intersections and pedestrian crossings along a constrained corridor.

I remember seeing a larger report with several intersection diagrams, but can't seem to find it now. Too bad.

[Fuzz]

So how would a vehicle cross centre street then? Would left turns be allowed at 16th ave? Does 20th turn into a dead end at centre? 40th?

[fusili]

Originally Posted by Fuzz

So how would a vehicle cross centre street then? Would left turns be allowed at 16th ave? Does 20th turn into a dead end at centre? 40th?

There was another diagram for intersections that allowed left turns and crosses. I would imagine cross streets such as 20th, 24th, 30th and 40th would allow for left turns and crosses.

[O-tacular]

Originally Posted by lineman

It would then be advantageous to utilize the boring machine to tunnel to 20th Ave N (providing that becomes the preferred way up the bluff) as I'm sure the cost of transporting and assembling the thing isn't cheap.

I'm just curious how this will play out with the water diversion tunnel going east on 50th from the Elbow to the Bow? It needs to be tunneled, not cut and cover iirc. I also seem to remember Nenshi musing about other uses they could find for such an expensive tunnel boring machine. I'm just saying, couldn't the case be made to the province to roll all of these tunneling projects together to maybe get a price break?

[MalcolmTucker]

Originally Posted by fusili

There was another diagram for intersections that allowed left turns and crosses. I would imagine cross streets such as 20th, 24th, 30th and 40th would allow for left turns and crosses.

Can always use this:



You can have all turn movements without any lefts in the intersection. Source: http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread....Metrolinx-U-C-amp-Design-Phase%29/page23

Or this:
Source: http://www.blogto.com/city/2009/08/the_eglinton_lrt_needs_a_re-think/

Eventually they decided to tunnel the central section instead of doing this.

[joe498]

Originally Posted by fusili

I have a simple solution. It involves not building the SWRR and it provides all the money for the Green Line. What is the Ring Road at now (including all legs) something like $15 billion??

Agreed, considering the price we paid for the SWRR deal, the Green line should of been much higher priority.

Come to think of it, we now own the land for the SW RR so why not switch timeframes with the Green line, use the SWRR funds for the Green line, build the SWRR in 10+ years.

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by Cage

8 Ave Subway requires boring for the entire length due to the proposed position of the tunnel.

2nd Street tunnel can be completed using cut and cover for most of the tunnel, which reduces the cost.

What makes you say this? I would say the existence of Gulf Canada Square and the CPR tracks, we would have to tunnel most of the SE Line tunnel. What is in the way on Stephen ave?

I also think you would have a hard time convincing council that cut and cover will work on a busy traffic road, that crosses several very busy traffic roads, but not work on the pedestrian mall. Yes, it would be disruptive to our nicest downtown street, but if you did it one block at a time you wouldn't shut down all of stephen ave at once.

[mersar]

Originally Posted by fusili

I have a simple solution. It involves not building the SWRR and it provides all the money for the Green Line. What is the Ring Road at now (including all legs) something like $15 billion??

In adjusted dollars it will maybe get near $10B at absolute most. The SE was only $770M, and in the SE opening press release it mentioned a total of $1.9B so far invested in Stoney Trail but those totals are likely not in adjusted dollars.

Originally Posted by MichaelS

What makes you say this? I would say the existence of Gulf Canada Square and the CPR tracks, we would have to tunnel most of the SE Line tunnel. What is in the way on Stephen ave?

Yep. 2nd Street would need to be at least partially bored, otherwise we'd need to demolish the parkade ramps at Gulf Canada and do a tricky dig under the CP Mainline and shuffle the tracks around, neither of which will happen.

Originally Posted by MichaelS

I also think you would have a hard time convincing council that cut and cover will work on a busy traffic road, that crosses several very busy traffic roads, but not work on the pedestrian mall. Yes, it would be disruptive to our nicest downtown street, but if you did it one block at a time you wouldn't shut down all of stephen ave at once.

Agreed. Vancouver did it to Cambie, no reason we can't do similar here. It would be painful for businesses, but not the end of the world if its done right.

[fusili]

Originally Posted by mersar

In adjusted dollars it will maybe get near $10B at absolute most. The SE was only $770M, and in the SE opening press release it mentioned a total of $1.9B so far invested in Stoney Trail but those totals are likely not in adjusted dollars.

With a $5B SE portion? The numbers I saw were in the billions for each quadrant.

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Originally Posted by joe498

Come to think of it, we now own the land for the SW RR so why not switch timeframes with the Green line, use the SWRR funds for the Green line, build the SWRR in 10+ years.

There are conditions in the agreement around the SWRR having to be operational, I think, within 7 years of the deal being final (or something along those lines, someone correct me if I'm wrong) .. Further to that the road has to remain open as well .. Otherwise the land reverts back to the Tsuu T'ina

In a vacuum building the Green Line is a priority over the SWRR, undoubtedly, but the issue is tied into the Tsuu T'ina and them being willing to sell their land - that's been an ongoing discussion for a long time .. Once that window opened for the City/province to get that land, they had to jump on that opportunity otherwise it may never come up again even if it means having to build the road ASAP .. It's not black and white

[Policy Wonk]

The SELRT has never faced a real implementation level shake-down of what is and isn't essential. I continue to believe the SELRT will ultimately run through the old station grounds at grade. And no, I don't anticipate the CPR is terribly attached to a nearly abandoned railroad station that has been little but dead storage for the last thirty-plus years and would be more than happy to see someone else foot the bill for realigning their downtown ROW into something useful to them.