Calgary Public Transit II

[ByeByeBaby]

Originally Posted by Bassic Lab

Low floor systems involve 15% higher costs to vehicle maintenance and 20% higher costs for track maintenance. The vehicles are also generally more expensive. The designs of low floor vehicles involve real compromises that affect performance. Combine that with all of the synergies that a unified fleet allows and there is no reason to create a second low floor system in Calgary. Low floor systems might make sense in routes that swing closer to the streetcar end of the spectrum in cities that lack preexisting routes, which isn't Calgary, isn't the SE LRT, and shouldn't be the NC LRT.

We don't have a unified fleet today - we operate U2s, SD60s and SD160s, with S200s on order; we seem to be doing okay despite our lack of synergies. Do you have a link you could point me to that shows the difference in maintenance and purchase costs?

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

Given all these running controversies, where is the transit improvement money going to be spent over the next 5 years? Just when you think the city is getting somewhere, suddenly everything takes a left turn and it's off for yet more studies...

North LRT seems to be destined for more agonizing for a while (maybe decades). So is money over the next 5 years going into the Green Line BRT? Or, cancel that and go full-tilt for the SE LRT? What about the other BRTs like the South Crosstown route?

It is exhausting trying to keep up with the transit improvement plans!

I shall try my best to give a summary because, as you mentioned, the changes have been fast and furious over the last few months.

Green Line
$520 was committed towards funding the Green Line by Council in November (this is the 10 year/$52 Million that had everyone talking in the Fall). Combining this new funding with some pre-existing Provincial funding along with an application for the new Build Canada Fund, the Green Line Bus Transit-way is now fully funded.

- SE Portion: The Functional Planning for the SETWAY/SE LRT has been complete. The City is now in the Engineering/Detail design phase. This will be complete in 2017. Construction will begin on the SETWAY shortly after. The SETWAY Bus Transit-way will be complete from the Downtown core to Douglas Glen by 2021. Other small investments will be made south of Douglas Glen to help improve travel times as part of the project. Without any new funding, LRT conversion to Douglas Glen is seen as happening in 20 years and full LRT build out to Seton will be in 30 years. Total cost of the SE LRT is approximately $2.7 Billion.

- NC Portion: The Alignment Study is now underway for the NC Corridor. City Staff will report back with the preferred alignment no later than December, 2014. The recommended alignment will also include proposed station locations, grade separation (if any) and a preliminary cost estimate. The Functional Planning Study will begin in early 2015 after the recommended alignment is accepted by City Council. The Functional Planning Study will last approximately 2 years. Once complete, Engineering/Detail design will begin for any bus transit-way improvements along the corridor. In approximately 2019, construction will commence on bus transit-way improvements and this construction will also be complete by 2021.

The total cost of the NC LRT is still to be determined however I should note a few things. The cost of tunnelling from 2nd Street SW underneath the 7ave LRT Tracks and the CP Tracks has already been accounted for in the cost for the SE LRT and is considered to be a part of the phasing of that line. The cost of getting the NC LRT from 16th Ave N to the termination point of the SE LRT is a complete unknown at this stage. We will find out more when the final alignment is brought forward in December. That being said we do know the cost of the various alignments north of 16th Ave N. If an at Grade option is used on either Centre Street or Edmonton Trail, the cost is around $500 Million. If the line is completely underground, the cost is around $1.9 Billion. Chances are, the final alignment will be a combination of both so realistically we are talking about $1 Billion + the cost to get the train from 16th Ave N to the 2nd Street W station. As mentioned, BRT construction will be complete at the same time as the SE Bus Transit-way construction in 2021. LRT conversion is seen has happening in the 20-30 year time frame.

Other Rapid Transit
Due to Council allocating the $520 Million to the Green Line, pre-existing funding that had already been allocated to construction of the Green Line Bus Transit-way was freed up to be used for other projects. In January, Council voted to use this money to fully fund construction of 5 other bus transit-way projects. These projects have all now entered the Functional Planning stage and construction will begin at various points. All of the 5 bus transit-way projects are now fully funded and will have construction complete by 2021. The projects are:

-Southwest Transit-way (Downtown - MRU - Woodbine)
-17th Ave SE Transit-way (Section from just east of Deerfoot Trail out to 52nd Street)
-South Crosstown BRT (Quarry Park - Heritage - MRU)
-North Crosstown BRT (16th Ave N from Rundlehorn - U of C)
-NW Hub BRT (West Campus Mobility)

Hope that helps!!

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

We don't have a unified fleet today - we operate U2s, SD60s and SD160s, with S200s on order; we seem to be doing okay despite our lack of synergies. Do you have a link you could point me to that shows the difference in maintenance and purchase costs?

http://www.gruene-hannover.de/uploads/abschlussbericht_stadtbahn_hannover_2010_03_04.pdf

It's on page 111, sorry its in German.

We have what amounts to a unified fleet when it comes to procurement and fleet management, which is where the benefits I alluded to our found. It has absolutely nothing to do with getting a new model of the same thing every other decade. We can currently purchase a common vehicle for all routes. We can transfer any vehicle in our fleet to any route to meet any unforeseen eventuality. We can operate a single facility for major maintenance. These are real benefits that we would be abandoning by making new lines low floor.

[Fuzz]

The only benefit of the 20-30 year timeline is that it is far enough out for the city to see the utter folly of running it at grade up centre street bridge and beyond.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by ByeByeBaby

We don't have a unified fleet today - we operate U2s, SD60s and SD160s, with S200s on order; we seem to be doing okay despite our lack of synergies. Do you have a link you could point me to that shows the difference in maintenance and purchase costs?

I believe that comes from here:

Some public transport companies have both low floor and high floor trams. They report that low floor trams have 15% higher maintenance costs for the rolling stock, and 20% higher maintenance costs for the infrastructure on average.[2] Among the problems observed is that the missing bogies result in a higher level of wear and tear.

source:http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Low-floor_tram
but it is referring to trams, not sure if the low floor LRT has the same issues.

[Ferreth]

Some calculations to put this into perspective:

So, let's call the cost of the whole green line $4Billion. We just need to assess every man, woman, and child living in the city $3,333.33 and we can build it tomorrow. Want some more tunneling? Add another $Billion for $833.33 per person.

Yes, that is a ridiculous way to fund something, but illustrates the scale of funding compared to the size of the city.

Forget about the Feds bailing us out. At best, Toronto got 1/3rd of a line funded, the Spadina extension got $700 out of $2600 millions, or 1/4.

Alberta Government funding? First we have to split evenly between Edmonton and Calgary, because politically that's how things are done around here. That works out to $2000 per person in our half of the province.

Let's stick with our Alberta example, and really rub salt in the wound, tally up the per household cost (average size 2.5) we are at $5000, and since a certain percentage of households will not be able to pay, or pay a lot less, I'll say the average would be more along the lines of $6000

If the Feds kick in a 1/4, and perhaps we tap rainy day funding a bit we are down to $4500 per household. Over 10 years, $450 per household, each year. About a 20% increase in taxes, if we assume every household pays, directly or indirectly.

My point is, even with tax increases to help pay for all of this, we are not going to get a $4 billion dollar line built in the next 10 years, barring political financial suicide*. The 20-30 time frame is realistic, even if we don't like it.

* Personally, I'd be happy with %20 higher taxes, for what it could pay for, not just green line but many things beyond that. But too many people don't look beyond our city and realize we have low taxes, but are paying an ever increasing price in lack of infrastructure. They just see that their property tax went up %5 again and scream bloody murder. Perhaps as traffic and transit become ever more grid-locked some will to spend and fix these problems will emerge.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Ferreth

Some calculations to put this into perspective:

So, let's call the cost of the whole green line $4Billion. We just need to assess every man, woman, and child living in the city $3,333.33 and we can build it tomorrow. Want some more tunneling? Add another $Billion for $833.33 per person.

Yes, that is a ridiculous way to fund something, but illustrates the scale of funding compared to the size of the city.

Forget about the Feds bailing us out. At best, Toronto got 1/3rd of a line funded, the Spadina extension got $700 out of $2600 millions, or 1/4.

Alberta Government funding? First we have to split evenly between Edmonton and Calgary, because politically that's how things are done around here. That works out to $2000 per person in our half of the province.

Let's stick with our Alberta example, and really rub salt in the wound, tally up the per household cost (average size 2.5) we are at $5000, and since a certain percentage of households will not be able to pay, or pay a lot less, I'll say the average would be more along the lines of $6000

If the Feds kick in a 1/4, and perhaps we tap rainy day funding a bit we are down to $4500 per household. Over 10 years, $450 per household, each year. About a 20% increase in taxes, if we assume every household pays, directly or indirectly.

My point is, even with tax increases to help pay for all of this, we are not going to get a $4 billion dollar line built in the next 10 years, barring political financial suicide*. The 20-30 time frame is realistic, even if we don't like it.

* Personally, I'd be happy with %20 higher taxes, for what it could pay for, not just green line but many things beyond that. But too many people don't look beyond our city and realize we have low taxes, but are paying an ever increasing price in lack of infrastructure. They just see that their property tax went up %5 again and scream bloody murder. Perhaps as traffic and transit become ever more grid-locked some will to spend and fix these problems will emerge.

That doesn't really put things into perspective. Residential property taxes aren't a municipalities only revenue stream, let alone the province's. Here is another perspective, Calgary's ring road will have cost ~10 billion dollars (between what has been paid for and expensed over the next 20-30 years). That is enough to build the 203 with the Centre Street portion entirely buried, bury the 201 under 8 Ave (and add grade separation at other key locations like 25 Ave S and Heritage Drive), bury the 202 under 7 Ave, build an International Ave LRT, build a 16 Ave Crosstown LRT, build an Airport Trail LRT linking the NC LRT and NE LRT, and elevate the 36 St portion of the 202. I'd take that over an outer ring road any day of the week.

[Fuzz]

Why can we build 2 $5-10 billion dollar ring roads in this province then? Why can Montreal have 70km of metro, and we can't bury 1.5km under downtown?

Divide your $3333.33 by 50 years an its much more reasonable. I wish the govt. would get rid of the flat tax so we could fund these things.

[RyLucky]

I think Alberta and Calgary should pursue taxation that is competitive with other markets. We don't have to have the lowest taxes by a lot (like we do now), but just by a little. If our taxes and royalties were like BC's (which we can easily afford), we could fund hundreds of millions to billions more in infrastructure each year.

[H.E.Pennypacker]

^ A phased in tax increase for LRT funding might be easier for taxpayers to swallow .. As low as they are in this municipality, people will always whine about an increase

It could be weighted more significantly depending on how each community is located in relation to the new LRT lines

Just a theoretical idea ... If it's going to take 15+ years to start the LRT surely funding can be gathered over that timeframe

[artvandelay]

Why would we need more taxation? All that's needed is better allocation of operating and capital expenses. If the Province can successfully fund massive ring roads around both major cities, a Canada Line style LRT corridor in north central Calgary should not be a problem. The provincial government spends more per capita than any other province save Newfoundland. Revenue is not the issue.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by O-tacular

Wow, the discussion on this thread seems to parallel the endless back and forth at the city level that is only making this project more complicated than it needs to be. In my mind the simplest solution is to do like Chadillac said and build it from McKnight to QP. The fact that they are looking at building the entire line in one go is the reason why it is rapidly becoming a 30 year project. Why can't they build it to serve the most crucial areas first, then add extensions when there's money later? I mean the biggest no-brainer to me is to run it to QP from DT and deal with the NC alignment later. At the pace these discussions are going we'll all be using fusion powered flying cars by the time this gets built.

McKnight to downtown would be an incomplete line that would not connect anything togethe and would still require a lot of improvements to the bust transit network. The catchment area for NCLRT is from areas north of McKnight.

Same goes for SELRT, the major catchment areas are south of Quarry Park. Just getting to QP would make the LRt unviable.

With both ends of the line unviable unless they are extended to the end, it pretty much has to be the full distancenfrom day one.

The other problem with the NCLRT is the new line requires a maintenance facility NDA the only logical locations are 1/2 way down the SELRT line.

[H.E.Pennypacker]

Originally Posted by Cage

McKnight to downtown would be an incomplete line that would not connect anything togethe and would still require a lot of improvements to the bust transit network. The catchment area for NCLRT is from areas north of McKnight.

Same goes for SELRT, the major catchment areas are south of Quarry Park. Just getting to QP would make the LRt unviable.

With both ends of the line unviable unless they are extended to the end, it pretty much has to be the full distancenfrom day one.

The other problem with the NCLRT is the new line requires a maintenance facility NDA the only logical locations are 1/2 way down the SELRT line.

Good point - didn't the City set aside a new parcel near Stoney Trail for the maintenance facility that will be built for the Green Line?

[MichaelS]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

I shall try my best to give a summary because, as you mentioned, the changes have been fast and furious over the last few months.

Green Line
$520 was committed towards funding the Green Line by Council in November (this is the 10 year/$52 Million that had everyone talking in the Fall). Combining this new funding with some pre-existing Provincial funding along with an application for the new Build Canada Fund, the Green Line Bus Transit-way is now fully funded.

- SE Portion: The Functional Planning for the SETWAY/SE LRT has been complete. The City is now in the Engineering/Detail design phase. This will be complete in 2017. Construction will begin on the SETWAY shortly after. The SETWAY Bus Transit-way will be complete from the Downtown core to Douglas Glen by 2021. Other small investments will be made south of Douglas Glen to help improve travel times as part of the project. Without any new funding, LRT conversion to Douglas Glen is seen as happening in 20 years and full LRT build out to Seton will be in 30 years. Total cost of the SE LRT is approximately $2 Billion.

- NC Portion: The Alignment Study is now underway for the NC Corridor. City Staff will report back with the preferred alignment no later than December, 2014. The recommended alignment will also include proposed station locations, grade separation (if any) and a preliminary cost estimate. The Functional Planning Study will begin in early 2015 after the recommended alignment is accepted by City Council. The Functional Planning Study will last approximately 2 years. Once complete, Engineering/Detail design will begin for any bus transit-way improvements along the corridor. In approximately 2019, construction will commence on bus transit-way improvements and this construction will also be complete by 2021.

The total cost of the NC LRT is still to be determined however I should note a few things. The cost of tunnelling from 2nd Street SW underneath the 7ave LRT Tracks and the CP Tracks has already been accounted for in the cost for the SE LRT and is considered to be a part of the phasing of that line. The cost of getting the NC LRT from 16th Ave N to the termination point of the SE LRT is a complete unknown at this stage. We will find out more when the final alignment is brought forward in December. That being said we do know the cost of the various alignments north of 16th Ave N. If an at Grade option is used on either Centre Street or Edmonton Trail, the cost is around $500 Million. If the line is completely underground, the cost is around $1.9 Billion. Chances are, the final alignment will be a combination of both so realistically we are talking about $1 Billion + the cost to get the train from 16th Ave N to the 2nd Street W station. As mentioned, BRT construction will be complete at the same time as the SE Bus Transit-way construction in 2021. LRT conversion is seen has happening in the 20-30 year time frame.

Other Rapid Transit
Due to Council allocating the $520 Million to the Green Line, pre-existing funding that had already been allocated to construction of the Green Line Bus Transit-way was freed up to be used for other projects. In January, Council voted to use this money to fully fund construction of 5 other bus transit-way projects. These projects have all now entered the Functional Planning stage and construction will begin at various points. All of the 5 bus transit-way projects are now fully funded and will have construction complete by 2021. The projects are:

-Southwest Transit-way (Downtown - MRU - Woodbine)
-17th Ave SE Transit-way (Section from just east of Deerfoot Trail out to 52nd Street)
-South Crosstown BRT (Quarry Park - Heritage - MRU)
-North Crosstown BRT (16th Ave N from Rundlehorn - U of C)
-NW Hub BRT (West Campus Mobility)

Hope that helps!!

Where are you getting your costs from? Considering the west lrt cost $1.4 billion and was much shorter than the SE LRT, I am very skeptical of your $2 billion number, especially if it includes the tunnel on 2nd street.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by Cage

McKnight to downtown would be an incomplete line that would not connect anything togethe and would still require a lot of improvements to the bust transit network. The catchment area for NCLRT is from areas north of McKnight.

Same goes for SELRT, the major catchment areas are south of Quarry Park. Just getting to QP would make the LRt unviable.

With both ends of the line unviable unless they are extended to the end, it pretty much has to be the full distancenfrom day one.

The other problem with the NCLRT is the new line requires a maintenance facility NDA the only logical locations are 1/2 way down the SELRT line.

I agree that there are real diminishing returns when we start cutting the SE LRT shorter. The most expensive part of the route is the inner section and all of the people live in the outer section. It is also a route that intends to leverage the benefits of rail and faster travel times to grow ridership. Existing bus routes that would be eliminated contribute little to existing capacity constraints.

I'd argue that the NC LRT is different. The #2, #3, #62, #64, #109, #116, #142, #300, and #301 all use the Centre Street bridge and numerous other routes that use either 10 St or Edmonton Trail (like the #4 and #5) could likely be eliminated. Now a forced transfer is by no means ideal but there is a limit to the number of busses that downtown and the Centre Street Bridge can handle. A stub NC LRT, preferably extending at least one station past 16 Ave to speed up turn around times and avoid congestion at !6 Ave, could eliminate dozens of busses from downtown streets during rush hour. I think that could justify an initial Douglasglen-Tuxedo route with later extensions to the north and south.

[MalcolmTucker]

The ring roads are being paid off like a mortgage by the province. When we are growing so fast it is unrealistic to wait until then money is in the bank, especially since our savings can grow at a much faster rate than debt. On the current course that is set by the city and the province I fully expect a ground breaking by the end of the decade to finish the core Lrt networks in both Calgary and Edmonton for completion by the mid to late 2020s. Going faster than that will require new revenue tools and a careful attitude to make sure we don't over tax our productive capacity.

Unless we invent a way to build without nearly as much labour in the mean time.

[CTrainDude]

Originally Posted by H.E.Pennypacker

Good point - didn't the City set aside a new parcel near Stoney Trail for the maintenance facility that will be built for the Green Line?

The Stoney Trail parcel is for a bus garage.

[outoftheice]

Originally Posted by MichaelS

Where are you getting your costs from? Considering the west lrt cost $1.4 billion and was much shorter than the SE LRT, I am very skeptical of your $2 billion number, especially if it includes the tunnel on 2nd street.

I had grabbed the numbers from a SE Transit-way brochure that I picked up at an open house that listed the costs for each phase of the SE Corridor. Now that you mention it, I apparently misread some of the info in the brochure and you're correct that my initial numbers weren't accurate. Having a second look it appears that the total cost of all phasing comes out to $2.7 Billion for the SE Leg, which makes much more sense... $667 Million for the Busway from 4th Street to Douglas Glen, $1.05 Billion to construct the LRT from Eau Claire Station to Quarry Park (the tunnel is included in this figure and is costed at $251 Million) and then $940 Million to construct LRT from Quarry Park to Seton.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by outoftheice

I had grabbed the numbers from a SE Transit-way brochure that I picked up at an open house that listed the costs for each phase of the SE Corridor. Now that you mention it, I apparently misread some of the info in the brochure and you're correct that my initial numbers weren't accurate. Having a second look it appears that the total cost of all phasing comes out to $2.7 Billion for the SE Leg, which makes much more sense... $667 Million for the Busway from 4th Street to Douglas Glen, $1.05 Billion to construct the LRT from Eau Claire Station to Quarry Park (the tunnel is included in this figure and is costed at $251 Million) and then $940 Million to construct LRT from Quarry Park to Seton.

Is that at all realistic? The Airport tunnel was what, $400 million built on empty unused space. Will an LRT through our active downtown with stations really be cheaper? I'm suspicious...

[mellbell416]

ouoftheice, you are awesome!

Wow, it's going to be a number of years before any significant improvements are made to the transit system - construction on these projects only starts in 2017 with finish dates by 2021.... A while back, they were talking about starting the construction work on the SETWAY in 2014, but that seems to only be a lovely dream now.

It is great that the Crosstown BRT routes are going to be a reality in a number of years - they will really change how people get around the city. It's nice to live in a city that values public transit - there are many that do not.

Still wish that all of these improvements were coming FASTER!