Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[fenwick16]

Originally Posted by P Unit

I don't understand how people have any opinion on the BMO expansion other than happy it's happening or angry that the Argos are moving in. It's like judging a building on massing studies.

Not really. They aren't tearing it down and starting from scratch. I think that anyone who has been to BMO Field has a good idea of what the finished project will look like from the renderings. There is quite a bit of information in the March 5th public meeting presentation originally posted by FrankieFlowerpot - http://www.explace.on.ca/database/rte/fi...20Field%20-%20Public%20Meeting_FINAL.pdf. If the finished stadium looks like the plans then it is a stadium that I will enjoy going to.

[Le-TanK-]

The improved BMO field looks nice, don't know why people are upset, better then playing in an over half empty sky dome that is owned by people who don't want you playing there.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Le-TanK-

The improved BMO field looks nice, don't know why people are upset, better then playing in an over half empty sky dome that is owned by people who don't want you playing there.

I don't think anyone is upset... underwhelmed would be a better description. But as the nautical saying goes, "any port in a storm"...

[bt04ku]

Originally Posted by Le-TanK-

The improved BMO field looks nice, don't know why people are upset, better then playing in an over half empty sky dome that is owned by people who don't want you playing there.

Well I suppose now they're going to be playing in a red-seated stadium owned by people who will reluctantly have them there. An improvement regardless (hell, a half empty BMO would still be better than a full Skydome IMO) but it just seems wrong that the largest market in the CFL has a team needs to keep settling on where they play.


BMO will definitely become a much better venue after this, but it will still be rather underwhelming given what the total cost would be and what could have been built for a similar price.

[Welkin]

[QUOTE=Prometheus;6481275]It's warm in October in Toronto. It can easily reach the high teens many days.




From a football perspective, I think the stadium is a little disappointing, in the same way that Tim Horton's field is a little disappointing, and does not really represent a step-up from older CFL stadium designs, like Canad Inns, Mosaic, Frank Clair, Molson-Percival, McMahon, Ivor Wynne, etc., which were cobbled together over the years and lack symmetrical cohesion and wrap-around bowl seating.

Without a football-specific, symmetrical design and wrap-around bowl seating, BMO Field fails to achieve that important "big-league" atmosphere and aesthetic that stadiums like Investors Group Field and BC Place exude when full. (Even Tim Horton's Field is football-specific and has sideline seating that extends all the way to the back of the endzone and has endzone spectator decks.)

Ultimately, I think Rogers (via MLSE, this time) has once again successfully seduced the Argos away from achieving independence and building a modern football-specific stadium of their own.[/QUOTE]

That is nice in concept. However having a team like the Argos raising $250 million+ for a "modern football-specific stadium of their own" could be a challenge. Keep in mind, if it was not for MASSIVE public subsidies, neither Regina, Winnipeg, Ottawa or Hamilton would be getting new stadiums (or BC getting a free stadium upgrade).

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by esquire

I think it's best if BMO is treated by the Argos as a short-term solution. Not in the sense of 1 or 2 years, but maybe 10 or 15 years. As I've said before, they really need to start planning a proper football stadium the moment the deal is done on this one.

And yes, it is somewhat surprising that a city like Toronto couldn't do better than this adequate but wholly unimpressive compromise of a facility. No one is saying that the Argos/TFC need a billion dollar NFL-style palace, but this BMO overhaul looks like something you'd expect from a much smaller city like K-W or Halifax. I'm pretty confident that if Saskatoon got a CFL expansion franchise they'd manage to build something better than this.

The Argos are a PRIVATE company not a public utility. The reason they don't have a really cool, up-to-date stadium is because they cannot afford one. The Argos do not generate enough revenue to be profitable at their current location, much less in a new $250 million stadium where they would be carrying an additional $15+ million per year mortage cost. Unless you feel that the public should build facilities for private companies (I am sure Tim Hortons would love for us to build a bunch of really cool, really expensive stores for them) private companies have to deal with the reality of what revenue their enterprises provide.

[VANRIDERFAN]

[QUOTE=Welkin;6485731]

Originally Posted by Prometheus

It's warm in October in Toronto. It can easily reach the high teens many days.




From a football perspective, I think the stadium is a little disappointing, in the same way that Tim Horton's field is a little disappointing, and does not really represent a step-up from older CFL stadium designs, like Canad Inns, Mosaic, Frank Clair, Molson-Percival, McMahon, Ivor Wynne, etc., which were cobbled together over the years and lack symmetrical cohesion and wrap-around bowl seating.

Without a football-specific, symmetrical design and wrap-around bowl seating, BMO Field fails to achieve that important "big-league" atmosphere and aesthetic that stadiums like Investors Group Field and BC Place exude when full. (Even Tim Horton's Field is football-specific and has sideline seating that extends all the way to the back of the endzone and has endzone spectator decks.)

Ultimately, I think Rogers (via MLSE, this time) has once again successfully seduced the Argos away from achieving independence and building a modern football-specific stadium of their own.[/QUOTE]

That is nice in concept. However having a team like the Argos raising $250 million+ for a "modern football-specific stadium of their own" could be a challenge. Keep in mind, if it was not for MASSIVE public subsidies, neither Regina, Winnipeg, Ottawa or Hamilton would be getting new stadiums (or BC getting a free stadium upgrade).

Has any stadium/arena in the US or Canada been built without MASSIVE public money involved? I would hazard a guess that none have.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Welkin

The Argos are a PRIVATE company not a public utility. The reason they don't have a really cool, up-to-date stadium is because they cannot afford one. The Argos do not generate enough revenue to be profitable at their current location, much less in a new $250 million stadium where they would be carrying an additional $15+ million per year mortage cost. Unless you feel that the public should build facilities for private companies (I am sure Tim Hortons would love for us to build a bunch of really cool, really expensive stores for them) private companies have to deal with the reality of what revenue their enterprises provide.

I'm with you, I'm not a fan of public subsidies for professional venues.

That being said, while I don't think the Argos would be in a position to build something spectacular on their own dime, I'm pretty sure that they could pull off something relatively second-rate but functional like the BMO football/soccer combo complex, but a bit better and more specifically suited to football.

The nice thing about that is that the Argos would not be beholden to a landlord that decided that it didn't want them around anymore... essentially the difference between renting and owning your own home. I know that BMO Field is city owned, but it is leased out to MLSE and Toronto has let publicly-owned stadiums fall into private hands before.

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[Le-TanK-]

I Think Hamilton down the road a little bit should add permanent seats to the one "walking section" (for lack of a better wording) behind the end-zone that does not have the jumbo-tron. It helped Mosiac here in Regina to feel more bowl like and helps the atmosphere of the stadium crowd.

[Welkin]

Has any stadium/arena in the US or Canada been built without MASSIVE public money involved? I would hazard a guess that none have.[/QUOTE]

Unfortunately you are mostly right. Outside of the Air Canada Center, MetLife Stadium, Busch Stadium and Bank of America Stadium, most stadiums are publicly funded. It is not as big a problem here in Canada but it is a huge problem down in the states (check out www.fieldofschemes.com). The new stadiums in Regina and Winnipeg are for publicly owned teams so that is not such a big deal. For some reason all you have to do is start a team and then have the public build you a place to conduct your business (Ottawa). What a hell of a plan and we suckers jump right in because it is "our" team. No wonder MLSE wants a NFL team. They know that they will be able to scam the good citizens of Toronto into building them a billion dollar asset for their business.

While I am a big fan of private enterprise, I really think sports teams should be community owned. They would be city owned just like parks, museums and libraries. We own the teams and we build the arenas. No more giving billion dollar arenas and stadiums to billionaires just so we can root for "our" team in a really cool place. There really is no benefit to private ownership in sports leagues. Too bad the City of Toronto did not step up to buy MLSE when they had the opportunity. It would have made a nice investment.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Funnily - I was down at Tim Hortons Field myself this afternoon - I was driving home from the in-laws in London and decided to pull into Hamilton and see how things were going first hand.

First impression was this feels a lot bigger than BMO Field

I took one lap of the site - there's about 25 pictures in all - I hope they can all fit in one post. Started at the southeast corner and walked counter clockwise.

Enjoy

[Dr Awesomesauce]

Great stuff!

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by elly63

I'm interpreting that as getting the seating done in the first phase before the roof to get the Argos in there. Argos at 25k and TFC at 30k.

Based on attendance in recent years aren't the Argos much more likely to need 30K capacity than TFC?

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Based on attendance in recent years aren't the Argos much more likely to need 30K capacity than TFC?

The Argos layout won't fit 30,000. The TFC layout contains the removable seats at each endzone which adds the extra 5,000. It is not a matter of needed attendance capacity, but it more of what capacity fits field demension requirements.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

Funnily - I was down at Tim Hortons Field myself this afternoon - I was driving home from the in-laws in London and decided to pull into Hamilton and see how things were going first hand.

First impression was this feels a lot bigger than BMO Field

I took one lap of the site as I let my dog stretch his legs - there's about 25 pictures in all - I hope they can all fit in one post. Started at the southeast corner and walked counter clockwise.

Enjoy

Great photos! Definitely the best views of THF I've seen online yet.

My general impression is in line with yours - THF looks bigger and more impressive than BMO (in its current form). I will also say that it looks like they are building that stadium on a timeline driven by the 2015 Pan Am Games more than anything else. I would be pretty surprised if there was any CFL football being played in there this year.

Oh, and nice dog!

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Welkin

The Argos layout won't fit 30,000. The TFC layout contains the removable seats at each endzone which adds the extra 5,000. It is not a matter of needed attendance capacity, but it more of what capacity fits field demension requirements.

Under normal circumstances, 25,000 would be at the lower end of what I'd expect the Argos would want as their capacity, but in this case it does look like they don't have much choice given the need to make the endzone seats retractable.

I suppose if Argos/TFC attendance increases significantly, they could always make the upper endzone seats permanent by building a new grandstand above the retractable seats which would presumably push total capacity somewhere around 35 thousand for football.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by Welkin

The Argos layout won't fit 30,000. The TFC layout contains the removable seats at each endzone which adds the extra 5,000. It is not a matter of needed attendance capacity, but it more of what capacity fits field demension requirements.

Maybe, but that was not really my point.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Permanent endzone seats in the south end at least will require the closing / re-routing of a street

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Based on attendance in recent years aren't the Argos much more likely to need 30K capacity than TFC?

Average regular season attendance for the Argos for the last 4 years

2013 - 21,926
2012 - 23,689
2011 - 20,017
2010 - 22,069

TFC's aren't any better to be honest - but given the significant investment in the team and the fact they have sold 17,000 season tickets for this season I'd imagine larger crowds for TFC games than Argo games