Calgary Public Transit II

[mellbell416]

Well, they need to think about the SE too.

Imperial Oil is moving to Quarry Park quicker than planned and it is going to be a nightmare to get there by public transit. Imperial Oil is moving at least 500 employees there this summer, with the bulk of the 3000 employees there by end 2015. There's really only the poor 302 bus that is in any way useful and these Green Line improvements can't come soon enough. As it is, the transit is so poor that the City is guaranteeing that the majority of the employees who presently use public transit will switch to cars because there is no other way to cope. NOT impressive.

[Fuzz]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

Well, they need to think about the SE too.

Imperial Oil is moving to Quarry Park quicker than planned and it is going to be a nightmare to get there by public transit. Imperial Oil is moving at least 500 employees there this summer, with the bulk of the 3000 employees there by end 2015. There's really only the poor 302 bus that is in any way useful and these Green Line improvements can't come soon enough. As it is, the transit is so poor that the City is guaranteeing that the majority of the employees who presently use public transit will switch to cars because there is no other way to cope. NOT impressive.

I think we can point some of the blame to the Federal and Provincial governments for absolutely failing on public transit funding. Their is only so much the city can do.

[andasen]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

Well, they need to think about the SE too.

Imperial Oil is moving to Quarry Park quicker than planned and it is going to be a nightmare to get there by public transit. Imperial Oil is moving at least 500 employees there this summer, with the bulk of the 3000 employees there by end 2015. There's really only the poor 302 bus that is in any way useful and these Green Line improvements can't come soon enough. As it is, the transit is so poor that the City is guaranteeing that the majority of the employees who presently use public transit will switch to cars because there is no other way to cope. NOT impressive.

If anything this is work that is needed to fast track LRT to the SE, the network vision has determined that SE and NC will eventually be interlined so you need to figure out exactly how the downtown alignment needs to run to work with both the SE and NC approaches.

[mellbell416]

I know that there is a lot of enthusiasm around building the LRT, but I think that it is much more realistic to focus on short term improvements to the bus corridors. The money needed to build the LRT is staggering and simply not available, and it is going to be a long time before anything is in place for the SE. I hope that the SE Green Line busway work starts as soon as possible. Recently, the noise has been the loudest around the northern section and I worry that this means that the SE will lose out yet again. Hey, I live in the north, but transit is already great through that section. It would be nice to improve travel time in the north, but the need isn't as great as it is in the SE. People at IOL now are actively buying cars because isn't any other way to get to work in a reasonable time frame from most parts of the city. Really we need an LRT to make that happen, but I just can't visualize that happening fast.

It is great that the 302 bus frequency has increased during rush hour (every ten minutes) and that is a step in the right direction.

[milomilo]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

Well, they need to think about the SE too.

Imperial Oil is moving to Quarry Park quicker than planned and it is going to be a nightmare to get there by public transit. Imperial Oil is moving at least 500 employees there this summer, with the bulk of the 3000 employees there by end 2015. There's really only the poor 302 bus that is in any way useful and these Green Line improvements can't come soon enough. As it is, the transit is so poor that the City is guaranteeing that the majority of the employees who presently use public transit will switch to cars because there is no other way to cope. NOT impressive.

Imperial chose to relocate from somewhere with good transit access to somewhere with poor transit for their financial benefit. The city shouldn't be expected to foot the bill for their selfish decision. The same goes for people who've moved into the deep south east.

[mellbell416]

I am not sure that everyone would agree with you on that. When IOL announced their move a couple of years ago, the city's mayor applauded the move, saying,""We need to make sure this doesn't mean people get away from downtown life, suburban life, more drive, more traffic, well supported by transit when people are there, walk and have lunch instead of car."

[MasterG]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

I know that there is a lot of enthusiasm around building the LRT, but I think that it is much more realistic to focus on short term improvements to the bus corridors. The money needed to build the LRT is staggering and simply not available, and it is going to be a long time before anything is in place for the SE. I hope that the SE Green Line busway work starts as soon as possible. Recently, the noise has been the loudest around the northern section and I worry that this means that the SE will lose out yet again. Hey, I live in the north, but transit is already great through that section. It would be nice to improve travel time in the north, but the need isn't as great as it is in the SE. People at IOL now are actively buying cars because isn't any other way to get to work in a reasonable time frame from most parts of the city. Really we need an LRT to make that happen, but I just can't visualize that happening fast.

It is great that the 302 bus frequency has increased during rush hour (every ten minutes) and that is a step in the right direction.

I agree. LRT is just too expensive to build fast enough to keep up with this city's growth in the absence of any serious increase in support from the Federal or Provincial governments. The use-case exists, all lines have exceeded expectations significantly but facts alone aren't enough to sway the other levels of government. Until that changes, we should plan for LRT expansion and look to the mode-progression approach outlined in Route Ahead to allow transit to grow in the absence of huge sums of money.

I would like to see Quarry Park become a new transit hub and not just an N-S to downtown route that is always described. Many of those Imperial Oil employees live in the West of the city, using Glenmore will only increase. I would like to see some serious consideration for the Route 306? (not sure what it is called) to provide a reliable, largely seperated right of way for busses to access E-W.

I am no transportation planner, I would assume that connecting all the largest activity centres of the South and West would be a boon with a reliable, LRT-like level of service as a BRT. Not the in-street BRT, but bus-lanes, new River bridges where ever feasible.

Quarry Park - Southland Station (or Heritage) - Rockyview - Mount Royal University - Westbrook Station (future connection to NW Hub). Throw in a handful of local stops (1 per neighbourhood the route passes through) some TOD zoning at Heritage and Southland and you'll get 50,000 riders a day if the service is reliable and can avoid congestion enough.

Most downtown commuters come from the NW / SW and I would assume many of those switching to Quarry Park would do the same. I suspect any high-paying oil job that moves there would still see a significant portion of the workforce live in the ever-trendy SW.

The major issues with my plan I can see is it requires a new River crossing for transit (expensive) as well as a tough treatment in the whole Rockyview to MRU area as the causeway and topography offers some significant challenges.

Would I be wrong to assume that that commuting pattern exists right now?

[J-D]

Originally Posted by MasterG

Most downtown commuters come from the NW / SW and I would assume many of those switching to Quarry Park would do the same.

There are a significant amount of downtown commuters coming from the SE as well.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by mellbell416

Well, they need to think about the SE too.

Imperial Oil is moving to Quarry Park quicker than planned and it is going to be a nightmare to get there by public transit. Imperial Oil is moving at least 500 employees there this summer, with the bulk of the 3000 employees there by end 2015. There's really only the poor 302 bus that is in any way useful and these Green Line improvements can't come soon enough. As it is, the transit is so poor that the City is guaranteeing that the majority of the employees who presently use public transit will switch to cars because there is no other way to cope. NOT impressive.

I think there is significant room for doubt on whether even a full Green Line LRT build out will significantly affect the mode share for Quarry Park commutes. How will Quarry Park differ from other suburban office parks adjacent to LRT? I can't see anything that will distinguish it from the office park at Southland other than scale and the fact that the offices in Quarry Park will mostly be further from the train station. If you're wondering, the mode share to Southland is nothing to write home about.

Imperial Oil isn't staffed by university students or minimum wage visa contract workers. They're losing expensive downtown parking and mostly gaining an additional transfer. If I were in their shoes, then I know I'd start driving.

[Socguy]

Too many people are stuck on the whole NC vs SE first argument, both are needed. We should all focus our efforts on building the whole darn thing and let the city planners figure out the most effective way to get it done.

[J-D]

Originally Posted by Socguy

Too many people are stuck on the whole NC vs SE first argument, both are needed. We should all focus our efforts on building the whole darn thing and let the city planners figure out the most effective way to get it done.

Of course both are needed. I feel that at least currently, the difference is that the NC corridor is better served by public transit than the SE. There is a lot more growth occurring in this area as well.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by andasen

Report going to T&T next week on the suggested alignments for the North LRT. Its split into two reports First is the alignment north of 16th evaluating 10 options which combine 4th street, edmonton trail, centre and nose creek with at-grade, underground, elevated options.

Centre at grade and Edmonton trail at grade are the suggested options with Centre underground notably in third.




The Green line's alignment through downtown has been reopened as well.

The preferred options

Source Reports
Route Alignment North of 16th
Route Alignment Through Downtown

And Go.

Just reading the report now. Initial thoughts, how the hell does Centre Street at grade beat Centre Street Underground in transportation efficiency? Community well being is another questionable win for at grade. Given that Underground wins on journey time, the tie on ridership is also problematic but at least they both are maxing out at 5.

I can buy a report that favours at grade due to cost over underground. I can even buy at grade beating elevated on various intangibles. I have trouble with a report that doesn't find underground to be undisputedly better at everything except cost.

[MalcolmTucker]

^ That analysis is just for north of 16th Ave. I would want to see what changes to the corridor would allow 19 minute travel times for LRT before going ahead, but these value calls are why we have city council.

Once we see the wide swath of road network changes imposed by surface LRT, I could see the community being more amenable to the elevated option. And who knows, a design builder might bid in with different options at prices we don't expect. Winning Calgary away from Siemens might be worth something to another company.

[Bassic Lab]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

^ That analysis is just for north of 16th Ave. I would want to see what changes to the corridor would allow 19 minute travel times for LRT before going ahead, but these value calls are why we have city council.

Once we see the wide swath of road network changes imposed by surface LRT, I could see the community being more amenable to the elevated option. And who knows, a design builder might bid in with different options at prices we don't expect. Winning Calgary away from Siemens might be worth something to another company.

I know it's just the portion north of 16 Ave. The crazy thing is that for Transportation Compatibility/Efficiency Underground beats at grade 18 to 17 for the segment from 16 Ave to McKnight and again beats it 18 to 17 for the segment from McKnight to Beddington Trail. At grade then pulls ahead by beating Underground by 20 to 16 for the portion north of Beddington Trail. The problem being that the portion north of Beddington Trail would be the the exact same, since both would run in the reserved ROW in the median of Harvest Hills Boulevard. So at grade was basically handed points for no reason whatsoever.

The arbitrary reduction of points to underground and elevated options for community wellness at least tried to justify itself by saying that stairs are hard. Which is stupid but not nearly as bad as the numbers for Transportation Compatability.

[Fuzz]

The study isn't all that impressive. Most of it seams fairly obvious, and when you look at table 5.1 of near identical costs you have to wonder how much effort they put into it, beyond general hand waving. I'm not convinced on their conclusion that at grade is the option worth looking into more, considering the significant disruption it will have pretty much forever, until they elevate or bury it. Simple number rankings don't really do justice to the meaning of it.

[MalcolmTucker]

I think the main use of this study is the low ranking of Nose Creek. Hopefully will move forward with more detailed study of the other alignments.

[Full Mountain]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

I think the main use of this study is the low ranking of Nose Creek. Hopefully will move forward with more detailed study of the other alignments.

I don't mind the two alignments selected for further study, except that the Edmonton Tr alignment swings over to Nose Creek in the northern section, I'd rather see it swing to Center St instead. That way it's within the communities rather than on the edge.

[mellbell416]

Doesn't sound like much money was allocated to public transit in the last provincial budget - not sure how this impacts the timelines for transit improvements.....

http://globalnews.ca/news/1193301/mayor-nenshi-says-he-expected-more-from-provincial-budget/

[MalcolmTucker]

$150 million increase province wide, and opening a second round for the green trip program.

The cities prefer untied grants so that is what the focus is on. After GreenTrip is exhausted I doubt the provincial will ever do a big targeted program like that again. While the grants could be higher, hard to fund everything at once.

[para transit fellow]

mini metro. the subway planning game

just download and try it

http://dinopoloclub.com/minimetro/