Transit Fantasies

[MIPS]

Why not something similar to the San Francisco cable car looping up and down lonsdale?

[Steveston]

Originally Posted by WBC

Has anybody ever examined an option of running some sort of gondola system from Sea Bus up the hill (along Lonsdale) and eventually towards Lynn Valley?

You mean like this?

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023047646_wheelgondolaxml.html

[officedweller]

And in case you missed it -
this proposal for Victoria to link the cruise ship terminal with the Inner Harbour (summer only).

http://www.victoriaskyride.com/new-page/

[WBC]

Originally Posted by Steveston

You mean like this?

http://seattletimes.com/html/localnews/2023047646_wheelgondolaxml.html

Exactly what I am thinking. This city is really ideal for that kind of transpiration system with all the hills...I am not sure whether business case can be made for anything but SFU (given their concentrated user base), but I could see other potential places for gondolas:

1) North Van Lonsdale (with potential to extend to Lynn Valley)
2) New West (Waterfront to 6th Avenue along 6th street)
3) Maybe from South Marine Drive up Kerr street to future potential sky train along 41st (this one obviously far, far in the future)

I think that potential advantage with gondolas would be lower operating cost (at least that was stated with SFU) and minimal land acquisitions required to make this happen combined with relatively small construction projects.

Aside from money savings, just imagine how awesome would be to have Sky Train - Gondola based system at the core of our transit network.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by MIPS

Why not something similar to the San Francisco cable car looping up and down lonsdale?

I think that's a great idea, and would provide riders with great views.
It could even be integrated into the main transit system using LRT of some sort.
(before the age of the automobile set in, my aunt Christine used to race the Lonsdale streetcar on her horse !!!!)

[LeftCoaster]

Hey guys, have been working on this for quite some time now, wanted to share it with you for a bit of feedback. This is what I think is a realistic vision for Vancouver's skytrain system in 2040 (or before depending on investment levels). All lines are grade seperated skytrain or similar tech with the exception of the Surrey LRT which would run at grade and be similar to Portland or Calgary's systems.


Larger Version

Rough buildout would be:

2016 - Evergreen to Coquitlam
2020 - E/M Line to UBC
2023 - Expo Line Extension
2027 - Hastings Line
2030 - Surrey LRT
2033 - Millennium Line
2038 - Canada Line Extension
2040 - Crosstown Line

This buildout would represent a similar rapid transit capital expenditure per year as we have currently been seeing, which I feel is pretty conservative since the region will be growing denser and transit will be growing as a mode share as well.

I have not included B lines, westcoast express or any streetcar programs since I didn't want to clutter the map, however they would naturally compliment the system.

Questions? Thoughts?

[GlassCity]

Edit: Didn't see your date of 2040. For 2040, that looks pretty damn good. Very possible that the Broadway Line could already become saturated, so the 41st Avenue would help relieve some of that. I disagree with the Hastings Line for political reasons, and I think that I've said enough in the past about my feelings for LRT However this would definitely be doable by 2040. I especially really like your alignment for Surrey, since it's unlike anything else I have ever seen people propose.

I've been working on my own map for probably over a year now, but it just got too crazy. There is no way it'd be built even within the century so I decided to start a new one that reflects current demand, and really only covers the very near future (til 2025?). It really doesn't have much on it, because I'd much rather expand bus service after Broadway instead of building SkyTrain to places that don't necessarily need it yet. So all I really did was just add a couple B-Lines, most of which function as cheap SkyTrain "extensions" mirroring future line's alignments, and others where I feel full on mass transit would be inappropriate. Although not as 🞵🞵🞵🞵 as SkyTrain extensions, I feel like this would efficiently move people around for the near future while ridership builds up on the corridors.

Here's a screen shot, but from what I understand you guys should be able to click on this link and explore it in detail yourselves, as I have no idea how to use graphics technology that makes a pretty subway map: https://mapsengine.google.com/map/edit?mid=zaeY3zzWBMjA.kfTY0Y9Oz53k


Short Term Vancouver Transit Map by AMetalnikov, on Flickr

[trofirhen]

Looks super to me, although one thing I had in mind for quite a while would have been that the HASTINGS LINE cross under English Bay and resurface, going down Arbutus. But I cannot judge. This seems super-comprehensive and realsistic.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Hey guys, have been working on this for quite some time now, wanted to share it with you for a bit of feedback. This is what I think is a realistic vision for Vancouver's skytrain system in 2040 (or before depending on investment levels). All lines are grade seperated skytrain or similar tech with the exception of the Surrey LRT which would run at grade and be similar to Portland or Calgary's systems.

Rough buildout would be:

2016 - Evergreen to Coquitlam
2020 - E/M Line to UBC
2023 - Expo Line Extension
2027 - Hastings Line
2030 - Surrey LRT
2033 - Millennium Line
2038 - Canada Line Extension
2040 - Crosstown Line

This buildout would represent a similar rapid transit capital expenditure per year as we have currently been seeing, which I feel is pretty conservative since the region will be growing denser and transit will be growing as a mode share as well.

I have not included B lines, westcoast express or any streetcar programs since I didn't want to clutter the map, however they would naturally compliment the system.

Questions? Thoughts?

Looks pretty good to me actually. You could probably do the cross line in Burnaby at least with a B-Line though to start and I'm unsure if you would really get that much traffic to warrant a full SkyTrain given it is basically 2 city cores and not terribly far by train. But definitely does make geographical sense.

Only grips I'd have is the terminus 164th out in Surrey. Personally being a long time Surrey resident and given the purpose of SkyTrain, I still stick with the opinion I'd rather see the Expo pushed all the way to Langley rather than a spur off to Newton. LRT or B-Line is fine for Newton in the short-medium term imo.

I do like the fact though you put in a provision for LRT down Scott Road. That stretch is slowly becoming a traffic nightmare and it is building quite dense outside of high-rises. A lot of medium and lowrise construction, stacked townhouses, etc. It will need something other than simple bus service in the next 10 years for sure.

Hastings I'm unsure about. Always on the fence about Hastings because I think the bus service is ok along that stretch right now. There are a few busses and the density isn't really building up along the stretch outside of Downtown. It would be a faster way for people in the Brentwood area or above to get to Downtown though but we need to discourage everyone going downtown and de-centralize the region from a traffic and transit perspective.

That's why I am pretty pushy for RRT out to Langley as I think it stands the best chance of encouraging smarter growth South of Fraser but it's just my opinion. You'd probably have more regional support and money though for the lines you've suggested on your map though so you're probably not terribly far off reality.

[jlousa]

Like your map Leftcoaster, think I'd move the Earles stop over to Victoria Dr though or at least add the station. Would love to see a line from New West station to Marine Dr station too along the tracks.

[LeftCoaster]

Thanks for the feedback guys, will make changes based on it for sure, but not today!

Also keep in mind this is a plan for 2040, I anticipate the city will go though A LOT of changes by then, just think about how different Vancouver looked in 1989.

Glasscity: Definitely think that all the lines would be predicated by B-Line services, it just seems natural to me, hence how the lines mirror a lot of the B line service seen right now. I do see the need for continual investment in grade separated transit however as the city gets denser, roads get more clogged and demand for transit increases.

Trofiren: I played around with that concept however when you look at it on google maps the angle is really awkward and would involve shooting out into the bay quite significantly. I addressed Kits in my 2055 plan with the arbutus line. It runs down Burrard, across the bridge and cuts over to arbutus through Kits, allowing the UBC line a more direct route to Downtown and vice versa.

Jhausner: Only reason I didn't push the expo line to Langley is the amount of ALR and SFH homes between the cores. I figured it would be far more effective to put commuter rail in Langley, linking to both Surrey Centre and downtown, allowing access to skytrain at either hub. That said I grew up on the North Shore so traffic patterns in Surrey are not my forte to say the least. Also Expo is pushed out East, its Millennium that links to Newton now!

Second thing is that you didn't love the crosstown line but then said that we need to discourage linking people to downtown only. The point of the crosstown is to link the city's cores outside of downtown. It creates a direct link between Oakridge, Metrotown and Brentwood and facilitates faster transport between burbs by letting people transfer further south than going all the way to broadway to travel east/west. Going from Richmond to Metrotown or Surrey to Oakridge for example would be much easier.

The hastings line is apparently a contentious one, with more than just you hesitating at it, but for me it is a no brainer. It has tons of room to densify and with the crosstown line could feed downtown or any of the other Burnaby/NewWest/Surrey town Centres quite easily. I envision 2030 Hastings to be full of midrise densification. If I had cash I'd be buying up the Hastings strip right now.

Jlousa: I will add the station, that part of town is pretty foreign to me so I kinda just winged it based on google maps. I do have the SW marine line too, its just part of my 2055 map, linking New west to the Arbutus line

[nname]

I like the map LeftCoaster, but at this rate, I'm afraid we might only get 1 or 2 lines done from the list by 2041...

I'm a bit skeptical about the new Millennium Line though. Of the entire system, the segment that will see the highest ridership is the Expo Line between Metrotown and Waterfront. However, the shared track and complex operating pattern of the Millennium Line at Columbia will severely limit its capacity, unless the line is quadruple tracked from SkyBridge to Surrey Central, and quintuple or sextuple tracked around the Columbia area.

As regard to the ALR between Surrey and Langley - there may not be much of ridership potential for people getting on/off at the ALR area, but RRT is an effective way to get people through the area. The projected load at 2041 through the ALR is actually not that bad - at 4,000 pphpd - more than the current hourly demand for the 99 B-Line. To argue that this segment does not warrant rapid transit is like arguing the line between Arbutus and UBC (4,000 pphpd), the entire Newton line (3-4,000 pphpd), and the Airport and Richmond portion of Canada Line (2-3,000 pphpd) are all not needed.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Thanks for the feedback guys, will make changes based on it for sure, but not today!

Also keep in mind this is a plan for 2040, I anticipate the city will go though A LOT of changes by then, just think about how different Vancouver looked in 1989.

Glasscity: Definitely think that all the lines would be predicated by B-Line services, it just seems natural to me, hence how the lines mirror a lot of the B line service seen right now. I do see the need for continual investment in grade separated transit however as the city gets denser, roads get more clogged and demand for transit increases.

Yeah, fair enough. I just don't have enough knowledge/confidence to predict anything but the immediate next steps. I wish it happened quicker, it's so much fun to see all these changes happen.

[Spork]

Agreed with most of it.

Some exceptions:
1) I would put the Hastings line out later (2032?) - that route has lots of remaining potential for bus prioritization and increased frequencies, and I just don't see the growth being that rapid out on that alignment.
2) I would change Kensington and Sperling North to be future stations - I think that the objective will be to have the line go to Willingdon, and those will be a minor extension in the future.
3) I can't see a second line coming from UBC, and would thus anticipate that a crosstown line would terminate at Kerrisdale. I don't know how busses would transact at that point, but some redevelopment east of Arbutus would probably have to occur.
4) I would anticipate Crosstown to be ~2028, as I would expect a lot of node densification along that corridor at major cross streets.
5) I would also expect a second phase of construction from Metrotown to Willingdon. The #130 does have high frequencies, but there is still a lot of additional capacity to be had by increasing them further, adding bendy busses (to quote Top Gear), and adding a parallel express route (#125?). Most of the existing bottleneck occurs during rush hour, I have found.

[nname]

Originally Posted by Spork

5) I would also expect a second phase of construction from Metrotown to Willingdon. The #130 does have high frequencies, but there is still a lot of additional capacity to be had by increasing them further, adding bendy busses (to quote Top Gear), and adding a parallel express route (#125?). Most of the existing bottleneck occurs during rush hour, I have found.

I've found that the #130 is actually quite commuter-oriented. Outside of peak and BCIT hours it is generally quite empty. The upcoming cut on the #130 in April pretty much show this - late night #130 will run 30min to hourly, instead of 7.5min to 15min

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

Jhausner: Only reason I didn't push the expo line to Langley is the amount of ALR and SFH homes between the cores. I figured it would be far more effective to put commuter rail in Langley, linking to both Surrey Centre and downtown, allowing access to skytrain at either hub. That said I grew up on the North Shore so traffic patterns in Surrey are not my forte to say the least. Also Expo is pushed out East, its Millennium that links to Newton now!

Makes sense given you're not familiar with the area. As a long time Surrey resident I'll let you in on a few discussion points that seem to be missed by those not familiar with that stretch of land.

1. ALR is sited a lot. But Fraser Highway crosses 2km of ALR only. 2km. For reference, 2KM is Patterson SkyTrain station to Royal Oak. So when people argue against RRT out to Langley it would be like saying no to the Expo Line because there are farms between Patterson and Royal Oak. Think how large Expo Line is and how silly it would be to say such a thing.

Same deal here. 2km of farm is why people seem to think there should be no RRT.

2. It isn't actually SFH. 90% of that stretch of Fraser Highway is actually medium density townhouses (3 and 4 storey town houses) and low rise 4-5 storey condos. Where there are open fields today they are already cleared and prepped for even more. So in just 10 years given current growth, just around 180th you're going to see another 10,000 people move into that area easy. So the density is there not to mention Surrey just put through another 5 medium-density townhouse developments between 160th and 164th.

3. You should get in a car and take a drive around the neighborhood. Drive Fraser Highway and do a 5 block by 5 block radius, then head over to 180th and do the same, then drive around Langley a bit. Most people I find drive the main roads and don't really get an understanding of what is actually being built. Even though I live in Surrey and work SoF, I actually do the above all over metro Vancouver and simply like to explore to see how other neighborhoods are doing.

A few years ago I thought "SkyTrain through Port Moody? Ridiculous" and then got in my car and did some exploring and now know what the deal is over there.

Second thing is that you didn't love the crosstown line but then said that we need to discourage linking people to downtown only. The point of the crosstown is to link the city's cores outside of downtown. It creates a direct link between Oakridge, Metrotown and Brentwood and facilitates faster transport between burbs by letting people transfer further south than going all the way to broadway to travel east/west. Going from Richmond to Metrotown or Surrey to Oakridge for example would be much easier.

Yah I do like the line for that reason. I do think overkill out to UBC as they simply don't have the land or ability to grow as dense as some people think it will. They've been pretty push against current developments and they have less land than New Westminster. So to me 2 x SkyTrain is overkill probably would make sense as has been mentioned terminating at Kensington. But I do like your idea and it does back my constant calls for decentralization of the region. I can't harp on it out in Surrey or Coquitlam and not see the potential for Oakridge <> Metrotown <> Brentwood.

And even for us in SoF it would be nice to be able to get to Oakridge without basically needing to go through downtown. Would add a cross connect for the Airport too for us.

The hastings line is apparently a contentious one, with more than just you hesitating at it, but for me it is a no brainer. It has tons of room to densify and with the crosstown line could feed downtown or any of the other Burnaby/NewWest/Surrey town Centres quite easily. I envision 2030 Hastings to be full of midrise densification. If I had cash I'd be buying up the Hastings strip right now.

Could be true. Hastings is a very old stretch though and to me hasn't really changed in 20 years so my main question would be if it has the potential, why hasn't it and why isn't it building up that way already? Sure there are a few buildings going up here or there but maybe I just don't see that growth.

Traffic wise the main issue with Hastings are 1) all the people J-walking and 2) the ridiculous light timings and no left turn lanes. No left turn lanes in Vancouver make traffic look worse than it could be given car volume just because you get a bus sitting on the right at a spot, 2 cars on the left turning, which leaves 1 lane for all the traffic to get through making it a nightmare.

They could just redo the whole road and add left turn bays and you'd solve most of the traffic issues for the next 10 years.

But as you said, looking that far into the future is difficult to do and a lot could change not just along that stretch but through the entire region.

[Joat]

The hastings line gets me the most excited. I really look forward to having more stations downtown.

I really wonder where the funding will come from though. Jimmy Pattison should fund a line and cement his legacy !

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by nname

I like the map LeftCoaster, but at this rate, I'm afraid we might only get 1 or 2 lines done from the list by 2041...

Hmm well we've been pretty good at getting it done so far. Like I said in my post, this just replicates the pace we've since since 86, it doesn't even advance it which I think may happen. 2040 is a LONG way away.

I'm a bit skeptical about the new Millennium Line though. Of the entire system, the segment that will see the highest ridership is the Expo Line between Metrotown and Waterfront. However, the shared track and complex operating pattern of the Millennium Line at Columbia will severely limit its capacity, unless the line is quadruple tracked from SkyBridge to Surrey Central, and quintuple or sextuple tracked around the Columbia area.

Great poiont, and it is a big issue I have too. The bottleneck for me is skybridge, as the rest can be double tracked/an express rail added/expanded relatively easily. I don't know how to get around skybridge though and what the minimum frequencies are on the bridge if the other sides of the bridge have additional platforms. I just love the idea of a one seat ride to downtown or UBC/Broadway from Surrey central though so I kept it in despite the logistical issues.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by Spork

Agreed with most of it.

Some exceptions:
1) I would put the Hastings line out later (2032?) - that route has lots of remaining potential for bus prioritization and increased frequencies, and I just don't see the growth being that rapid out on that alignment.

Fair, the dates were pretty random.

Originally Posted by Spork

2) I would change Kensington and Sperling North to be future stations - I think that the objective will be to have the line go to Willingdon, and those will be a minor extension in the future.

Fair, although if were putting this line into the future there could be tons of density out there by then. Most of it is pretty up in the air so a lot could or could not be future stations

Originally Posted by Spork

3) I can't see a second line coming from UBC, and would thus anticipate that a crosstown line would terminate at Kerrisdale. I don't know how busses would transact at that point, but some redevelopment east of Arbutus would probably have to occur.

I agree, but when I had it terminate at kerrisdale it looked dumb so i moved it out. My second option was terminate it at dunbar which makes it easier to move busses in and out but either way its a bit messy.

Originally Posted by Spork

4) I would anticipate Crosstown to be ~2028, as I would expect a lot of node densification along that corridor at major cross streets.

I didn't put crosstown that early as it would be right after completing the evergreen/millennium extension and I figured it would be seen as too vancouver-centric even though you are right in that by then that line could be quite busy.

Originally Posted by Spork

5) I would also expect a second phase of construction from Metrotown to Willingdon. The #130 does have high frequencies, but there is still a lot of additional capacity to be had by increasing them further, adding bendy busses (to quote Top Gear), and adding a parallel express route (#125?). Most of the existing bottleneck occurs during rush hour, I have found.

phasing lines 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵, and by then I expect Metrotown to be very large, and Brentwood to be very large so travel between them could be quite extensive.

[LeftCoaster]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Makes sense given you're not familiar with the area. As a long time Surrey resident I'll let you in on a few discussion points that seem to be missed by those not familiar with that stretch of land.

1. ALR is sited a lot. But Fraser Highway crosses 2km of ALR only. 2km. For reference, 2KM is Patterson SkyTrain station to Royal Oak. So when people argue against RRT out to Langley it would be like saying no to the Expo Line because there are farms between Patterson and Royal Oak. Think how large Expo Line is and how silly it would be to say such a thing.
Same deal here. 2km of farm is why people seem to think there should be no RRT.

Well it's an issue as it makes the stations about 6.8km apart, assuming stations at 160th st and 188th st which must be one of the longest station distances in the world for a metro system.

Originally Posted by jhausner

2. It isn't actually SFH. 90% of that stretch of Fraser Highway is actually medium density townhouses (3 and 4 storey town houses) and low rise 4-5 storey condos. Where there are open fields today they are already cleared and prepped for even more. So in just 10 years given current growth, just around 180th you're going to see another 10,000 people move into that area easy. So the density is there not to mention Surrey just put through another 5 medium-density townhouse developments between 160th and 164th.

Fair, and most of my other lines anticipate density so it would only be fair to assume the same here.

I honestly exuded it thinking the express WCE train to Surrey Central then continuing on to downtown would better serve Langley. It would provide faster travel times to those nodes where people could then transfer to locations nearby. I didn't expect much transit between stations along the line (ie between langley city centre and 160th st.), which is a key determinant in whether to build metro or commuter rail. A transit planner would know much better though so if the demand warrants of course an extension to Langley would make sense, it just seems to me another medium of transit would serve its needs much more efficiently and effectively.

Originally Posted by jhausner

I can't harp on it out in Surrey or Coquitlam and not see the potential for Oakridge <> Metrotown <> Brentwood.

And even for us in SoF it would be nice to be able to get to Oakridge without basically needing to go through downtown. Would add a cross connect for the Airport too for us.

For me the crosstown is the most important new line in the system, not for the immediate areas served, but by linking the metro, so I'm glad you can see its utility.

Originally Posted by jhausner

But as you said, looking that far into the future is difficult to do and a lot could change not just along that stretch but through the entire region.

To me if the metro grows to 4+ million and Hastings corridor is not a denser area I will be baffled. It is a no brainer of a part of the city to densify. Less NIMBYs than the west side, poorer housing stock, great views of the inlet/mountains and so close to downtown/brentwood/metrotown. I actually find it somewhat of a mystery why it isn't building up faster already, like I said if I was a betting man I'd bet on that corridor.