Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Well is it Surrey OR SoF?

And if SoF leaves, all the more reason Translink won't be able to raise the funds for the Broadway Line (up to Cambie / Arbutus).

Last I checked the North Shore still pays Translink more than Surrey does, hasn't been on the receiving end of several multi billion dollar freeway upgrade plans c/o the provincial government and doesn't have large quantities of expensive bus routes that have traverse over 30km of wide open freeway.

I wouldn't be too upset with the level of investment in SoF if I lived there.

[ssiguy]

First things first, SkyTrain has to get to Cambie/Canada Line pronto, I don't think even SkyTrain haters refute the logic of that.

I have always thought that the Broadway to UBC corridor was a waste of money. The furthest west it needs to go is Alma and that's even stretching it. West of Alma the BLine is a very fast route with few lights and little disruption. In that stretch of Broadway it is just wealthy SFH most of whom wouldn't use transit if their life depended on it. West of Alma, except Sasamat, the BLine is fast and reliable and cannot be compared to central Broadway.

There is also no room for TOD west of Alma unlike huge other areas of the city/metro. Hastings is a far, far, far busier and more important route than Boradway west of Alma will ever be and is used by many more buses that Broadway will ever see. The need for Rapid Transit SoF is immediate as the system is completely over capacity.

Building to UBC may make the Westsiders who voted Liberal feel good but it is a huge waste of money and very poor urban planning. I think east to Granville would be fine for now with the remainder going SoF, Hastings, and upgrading the Canada Line which is already WAY over capacity. Frequencies have to at least double and station/trains expanded immediately. There are petitions in WR/Rich to get us taken off the Canada Line and back to our regular service before it opened which was more comfortable, faster, and much more pleasant than the Tonka-toy.

[logan5]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Well is it Surrey OR SoF?

And if SoF leaves, all the more reason Translink won't be able to raise the funds for the Broadway Line (up to Cambie / Arbutus).

Isn't the cost per passenger much higher SoF? If Vancouver were to go it alone, wouldn't Translink save quite a bit of money?

[dleung]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I don't know how much it would cost just to get to Arbutus, but lets use the $3 billion figure, divide it by 12 km, so its $250 million per km. So if half is built, its $1.5 billion to service the 2/3 of 100k, or 66k that would get off Arbutus, then another 1.5 billion to service the 1/3 of 100k, or 33k that would go all the way to UBC.

$1.5 billion, more than Evergreen Line, more per km than Canada Line....are the UBC students, who don't even need to be on campus, even that worth it?

The projected ridership of the Broadway extension is 320,000 by 2041. With the scrapping of parallel bus routes, the ridership within the first year could probably top 200,000/day One must factor, in addition to the sheer density of Broadway, the creation of new ridership created by synergies with the Canada Line, which already has 140,000 daily ridership, way beyond initial projections.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

And you want the sheer expense of that second leg to be paid by the entire region, with a token *contribution* from UBC, to service 33k people, mostly students?

Who's servicing 33K people?

UBC lists 49,000 students, about 16,000 staff, and about 13,000 residents. Last I checked Kits also is reasonably dense. Do you even live in Metro Vancouver?

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by logan5

Isn't the cost per passenger much higher SoF? If Vancouver were to go it alone, wouldn't Translink save quite a bit of money?

Translink actually saving money? What planet are you on?

Seriously though, if Vancouver goes it alone, yes Translink would save quite a bit. But I doubt they would want to spend the $3 billion or even $1.5 billion all by themselves...

Originally Posted by Alex Mackinnon

Who's servicing 33K people?

UBC lists 49,000 students, about 16,000 staff, and about 13,000 residents. Last I checked Kits also is reasonably dense.

Did you actually read what I posted or the discussion that led to the post?

Originally Posted by dleung

One must factor, in addition to the sheer density of Broadway, the creation of new ridership created by synergies with the Canada Line, which already has 140,000 daily ridership, way beyond initial projections.

I'm sorry but its simply not that dense now and the future. But I don't dispute the fact that Skytrain is needed in Broadway

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

So let me get this straight.....I don't have the exact measurement but just by looking at google map, approximately half of the "UBC Line" is up to Arbutus, and the other half is from Arbutus to UBC itself. Most of that leg will be underneath low density properties, some being the most expensive in the Province, if not country.

And you want the sheer expense of that second leg to be paid by the entire region, with a token *contribution* from UBC, to service 33k people, mostly students?

And add to that....



I don't know how much it would cost just to get to Arbutus, but lets use the $3 billion figure, divide it by 12 km, so its $250 million per km. So if half is built, its $1.5 billion to service the 2/3 of 100k, or 66k that would get off Arbutus, then another 1.5 billion to service the 1/3 of 100k, or 33k that would go all the way to UBC.

$1.5 billion, more than Evergreen Line, more per km than Canada Line....are the UBC students, who don't even need to be on campus, even that worth it?

Broadway west of Arbutus is a lot denser than what you give credit for. Just because there's an absence of towers doesn't make it low density. It's a lot denser and transit-oriented than much of the corridors in Surrey.

And if UBC being the 3rd transit destination isn't enough for you, I suppose you don't believe any other corridor merits rapid transit then. Reading between the lines, a B-Line in Surrey's corridors is more than sufficient is what you're inferring.

And please stop making UBC students sound like they're second rate citizens.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by squeezied

Broadway west of Arbutus is a lot denser than what you give credit for. Just because there's an absence of towers doesn't make it low density. It's a lot denser and transit-oriented than much of the corridors in Surrey.

And if UBC being the 3rd transit destination isn't enough for you, I suppose you don't believe any other corridor merits rapid transit then. Reading between the lines, a B-Line in Surrey's corridors is more than sufficient is what you're inferring.

And please stop making UBC students sound like they're second rate citizens.

I think I made it clear that I support the Skytrain extension to Broadway, to Cambie at minimum, to Arbutus ideally (thanks to Rico for reminding me).

Its just that the sheer cost for the UBC leg is just ridiculous for the amount of people it would service its just not the best way to spend the limited funds that we have. Add to the fact that, as WBC pointed out, the students don't even need to go to the campus thanks to new technologies and methods of education, so why spend the billions to service something completely unnecessary?

I'm all for extending the Skytrain to UBC....as long as UBC pays for it from Arbutus to its campus. They can even save money by elevating their portion...

[Tfreder]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Did you actually read what I posted or the discussion that led to the post?

I tried to read your leading comments but it was a mind-numbing experience. Alex has a valid point; UBC is still a destination that has high transit demand. It might even eclispe Rapid Transit demand SOF.

Honestly, you seem to be so caught up in the notion that building skytrain to UBC won't benefit anyone outside of UBC commuters. With that line of thinking, we shouldn't build rapid transit in surrey since it only benefits Surrey commuters. Let's just scrap the Evergreen line too since it only really benefits Tri-city commuters. Seriously, this is capitalism; not everybody is going to win here.

I also fail to see how UBC would be getting 'special' treatment with skytrain service. Kwantlen, Douglas, Vancouver Community College, and SFU currently have skytrain service.

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

I think I made it clear that I support the Skytrain extension to Broadway, to Cambie at minimum, to Arbutus ideally (thanks to Rico for reminding me).

Its just that the sheer cost for the UBC leg is just ridiculous for the amount of people it would service its just not the best way to spend the limited funds that we have. Add to the fact that, as WBC pointed out, the students don't even need to go to the campus thanks to new technologies and methods of education, so why spend the billions to service something completely unnecessary?

I'm all for extending the Skytrain to UBC....as long as UBC pays for it from Arbutus to its campus. They can even save money by elevating their portion...

Yes I clearly understood that you support skytrain to Arbutus, not the full length to UBC. Everything in my last post was about the extending the full length to UBC.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Tfreder

I also fail to see how UBC would be getting 'special' treatment with skytrain service. Kwantlen, Douglas, Vancouver Community College, and SFU currently have skytrain service.

True, SFU Surrey has Skytrain (and don't bother pointing out the irony, since I am obviously referring to Burnaby Mountain). Kwantlen, not sure, maybe Richmond? But I do recall it was Kwantlen that did that demo that a runner is faster than the bus in terms of service in their Surrey campus. Douglas, well I grant you that, they are lucky. Same with VCC. But what about BCIT...in Burnaby? Where is their Skytrain?

Originally Posted by Tfreder

Sidenote: I find it hilarious that you just assume that nobody west of Arbutus would take transit even if their "life depended on it". Not all affluent people fit into your fixed stereotype.

That wasn't me....

Originally Posted by squeezied

Yes I clearly understood that you support skytrain to Arbutus, not the full length to UBC. Everything in my last post was about the extending the full length to UBC.

Lets just agree to disagree, okay?

I admit, I haven't had this much fun in SSP for a long time (ah the joys of debating), but its bed time and I doubt we can convince each other to change our views.

[Tfreder]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

True, SFU Surrey has Skytrain (and don't bother pointing out the irony, since I am obviously referring to Burnaby Mountain). Kwantlen, not sure, maybe Richmond? But I do recall it was Kwantlen that did that demo that a runner is faster than the bus in terms of service in their Surrey campus. Douglas, well I grant you that, they are lucky. Same with VCC. But what about BCIT...in Burnaby? Where is their Skytrain?



That wasn't me....

Technically, UBC is just an annex of 3 BCITs if looking at campus population, not to mention larger faculties, more retail workers, and even tourists/visitors. And of course, don't forget about UBC's prestige. Like an earlier poster mentioned, UBC is the 3rd largest employment centre in the lower mainland. Don't all of these factors earn it a fair shot at rapid transit?

Yes, that was my mistake. I just assumed you were the universal voice of opposition.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by ssiguy

The need for Rapid Transit SoF is immediate as the system is completely over capacity.
...
and upgrading the Canada Line which is already WAY over capacity.

Are you serious? The bus system SoF is over capacity? I guess that's why they're adding stops to the B-Line and lowering its frequency.

Also, the Canada Line is not WAY over capacity. I get passed up by a train literally once a month, and I commute peak hour both ways.

[bardak]

Originally Posted by dleung

The projected ridership of the Broadway extension is 320,000 by 2041.

If the riderships west of arbutus is just under a third that would still be around 100,000 per day which is higher than the opening projections of any of our current lines. The line will also reduce overall operating cost because you could get away with getting rid of the ubc leg of all the buses with the excepion of the 41. I do think that ubc should pay a portion but not even close to the total cost of the western portion.

As for whether or not west broadway has appropriate demand for rapid transit I don't think it really matters as ubc has enough demand to justify a few lower usage station in between.

[ozonemania]

I also honestly don't get the Broadway Line stopping short of UBC. Imagine train after train of Skytrain dumping (conservatively) 8-10,000 people per hour at the corner of Arbutus and Broadway. What a gong show that would be. You'd have to have 3-5 buses lined up and ready to go every 2 minutes, otherwise you'd have serious crowd management problems. That just means operation costs will go even higher keeping buses on this route.

In addition you'd be adding an extra modal transition to every passenger's ride, which is probably one of the leading factors for transit use. i.e. If I can get to where I want to go in 2 modes, I'll use it. If I have to use 3 or more, I'd rather drive.

And that's just taking into account factors about current needs.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Zassk

UBC is not just another run-of-the-mill transit destination.

It is the biggest employment centre and transit destination after downtown and Central Broadway. And it is growing as fast or faster than any area of the suburbs.

There is nothing else in the metro region that comes close to it. YVR is the next largest by size after UBC, and by no coincidence, YVR has a transit line.

If you want to maximize your return on dollars spent on rapid transit, then yes, UBC is the destination to build it. Not just because it happens to be a straight shot from Broadway, but because of its own merits.

Originally Posted by squeezied

Nobody here thinks UBC students are special. You`re the one who thinks they (and apparently every other person who doesn`t pay income taxes) are inferior.

UBC is the third largest transit destination in the region. Apparently that doesn`t sink into your mind. The ridership along the B-Line to UBC is enough to justify a rapid transit extension to UBC. UBC should contribute part of the cost of the extension, but to suggest that UBC is the sole beneficiary and should completely pay for the cost of the extension is inane. The main beneficiaries are students who live throughout the rest of the region, not UBC or the posh westside of Vancouver. These are students whose families likely struggle to pay for the tuition on top of paying taxes. It is quite common for these students to spend an hour commuting to UBC. How long is your commute and is it jam packed most of the time?

Clearly you still think UBC should pay for all the cost of extending beyond central Broadway to UBC despite the ridership and demand from throughout the region. Then I trust you also believe Surrey (or every other region for that matter) should also pay for their rapid transit because there is no single destination located in these corridors that have the ridership and demand anywhere close to that of UBC. As it has been mentioned before, most people who live in Surrey work in Surrey and vice versa. The main beneficiary of rapid transit lines in Surrey (especially LRT which is disconnected from the skytrain system) are those who live in Surrey. So clearly you must also think Surrey should pay for its own rapid transit lines.

Originally Posted by squeezied

It's safe to assume a significant portion of the ridership is destined to UBC.

Originally Posted by Rico

According to the forecast a little under 1/3 of the peak will be going to UBC.

Originally Posted by dleung

The projected ridership of the Broadway extension is 320,000 by 2041. With the scrapping of parallel bus routes, the ridership within the first year could probably top 200,000/day One must factor, in addition to the sheer density of Broadway, the creation of new ridership created by synergies with the Canada Line, which already has 140,000 daily ridership, way beyond initial projections.

Originally Posted by squeezied

Broadway west of Arbutus is a lot denser than what you give credit for. Just because there's an absence of towers doesn't make it low density. It's a lot denser and transit-oriented than much of the corridors in Surrey.

And if UBC being the 3rd transit destination isn't enough for you, I suppose you don't believe any other corridor merits rapid transit then. Reading between the lines, a B-Line in Surrey's corridors is more than sufficient is what you're inferring.

And please stop making UBC students sound like they're second rate citizens.

Originally Posted by bardak

If the riderships west of arbutus is just under a third that would still be around 100,000 per day which is higher than the opening projections of any of our current lines. The line will also reduce overall operating cost because you could get away with getting rid of the ubc leg of all the buses with the excepion of the 41. I do think that ubc should pay a portion but not even close to the total cost of the western portion.

As for whether or not west broadway has appropriate demand for rapid transit I don't think it really matters as ubc has enough demand to justify a few lower usage station in between.

Originally Posted by ozonemania

I also honestly don't get the Broadway Line stopping short of UBC. Imagine train after train of Skytrain dumping (conservatively) 8-10,000 people per hour at the corner of Arbutus and Broadway. What a gong show that would be. You'd have to have 3-5 buses lined up and ready to go every 2 minutes, otherwise you'd have serious crowd management problems. That just means operation costs will go even higher keeping buses on this route.

In addition you'd be adding an extra modal transition to every passenger's ride, which is probably one of the leading factors for transit use. i.e. If I can get to where I want to go in 2 modes, I'll use it. If I have to use 3 or more, I'd rather drive.

And that's just taking into account factors about current needs.

IMHO, the weight of these opinions all point up the necessity of the Broadway Line to UBC. Even with just the statistics speaking for themselves, never mind extrapolations of future ridership, combined with regional destination priorities, how can it not be obvious that this is a keystone project that has to be seen through on way or another.
I'd even go as far as to say that people who argue SoF Fraser LRT over the UBC line are more in the mental ballpark of Malcolm. It's just that UBC all the way seems so OBVIOUS (to me and some others, anyway). To think otherwise -especially at this juncture of Metro population growth and development - just does not make sense.

Others will argue, I know, but some may agree with this synthesis, too.

[usog]

Originally Posted by ozonemania

I also honestly don't get the Broadway Line stopping short of UBC. Imagine train after train of Skytrain dumping (conservatively) 8-10,000 people per hour at the corner of Arbutus and Broadway. What a gong show that would be. You'd have to have 3-5 buses lined up and ready to go every 2 minutes, otherwise you'd have serious crowd management problems. That just means operation costs will go even higher keeping buses on this route.

In addition you'd be adding an extra modal transition to every passenger's ride, which is probably one of the leading factors for transit use. i.e. If I can get to where I want to go in 2 modes, I'll use it. If I have to use 3 or more, I'd rather drive.

And that's just taking into account factors about current needs.

The overwhelming majority of the riders who benefit from skytrain in the stretch between UBC and Alma would be UBC employees and students. If anyone disagrees with this I suggest you take the B-Line along the full length regularly and observe the ridership pattern. There are more riders in the corridor who aren't going to UBC than who are. There are clear precedents in this situation for organizations being required contribute to funding transit services given these conditions. See the YVR branch, the proposed station next to Aberdeen, and the Evergreen Line for examples. If you ran the current level of B-Line service between an Alma skytrain terminus and UBC I almost guarantee there would be no pass-ups.

Given all this, I would be mightily pissed if my mayor voted for spending $1 Billion+ extra in building it out all the way to UBC with translink money rather than providing more buses and maybe a seabus for the rest of the region. And they won't because no matter how much UBC students and alumni dream because it'd be political suicide. But because of this idea that they MUST have skytrain the full length, anyone with a brain in Surrey would be able to point to these unreasonable demands and say "see how reasonable we are being in comparison with our modest proposals, give us money for our LRT" and then Broadway won't see skytrain for even longer.

It might seem OBVIOUS to some of you that UBC needs skytrain but when it comes down to finding a way to make it happen...it won't. I don't see any realistic way of skytrain reaching UBC without them paying for a huge chunk of it. No one will pay for such a proposal. The province had to shove the Canada Line down the mayor's throats before it got green-lit and that was already a slam dunk case.

[SFUVancouver]

I think we're quickly approaching a place where we agree to disagree regarding whether rapid transit should be extended beyond central Broadway to UBC.

I believe SkyTrain should be extended in a tunnel to UBC and in my judgment the extension from VCC-Clarke to UBC should be built in a single phase. A single large-diameter bored tunnel should be employed and I think it should extend all the way to Blanca and 10th. From Blanca and 10th to the current bus loop site a 3.3km elevated guideway should be employed with a stop at the Block F Musqueam First Nations site near Toronto Road and the terminus station at UBC proper.

The assertion that university students no longer need to travel to campus strikes me naive, and the mindset that UBC is purely a classroom is a generation out of date. UBC is a major employment node in the region, it is an increasingly significant population node with plans on the books to more than triple the number of residents in the coming couple decades, and it is one of the largest and most predictable trip generators in the region. Whether it is sheer ridership numbers that the SkyTrain extension will carry from opening day, congestion alleviation across the region created by UBC and Central Broadway travellers choosing to begin using transit over private automobiles, or simply the network effect having a positive increase on the overall transit system and generating greater ridership and improved farebox revenues; there are numerous compelling reasons why the missing western half of the Burrard Peninsula east-west rapid transit mainline should be built. The cost of construction will be substantial - nobody has ever argued otherwise - but the ridership and financial outlook for a rapid transit line will never look better in this region, or arguably in the country, and if the ridership and operating cost upside of putting rapid transit there cannot outweigh the hurdle of finding the money, then I think we are quite simply done building real rapid transit in this region for the foreseeable future.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

UBC is a major employment node in the region, it is an increasingly significant population node with plans on the books to more than triple the number of residents in the coming couple decades, and it is one of the largest and most predictable trip generators in the region.

UBC is a natural. Most metropolitan rapid transit lines end in a suburban region where the demand and ridership tends to peter out to the minimum level needed to justify building the line that far. UBC is different - it's almost as large a trip generator as the central portion of the line. That will improve the line's overall utilization and revenue far more than an equivalent extension to other lines in our region would. It's a geographical bonus that we really ought to take advantage of, IMHO.

If we're unable to bite off enough of a budget to go all the way to UBC in the first phase then I can live with that - I'd far rather see the line get built through to Granville or Arbutus than not at all. But I think there's a strong case to be made for going all the way to UBC, particularly if UBC chips in at least some amount towards the construction.

[nname]

^ Using a single, large-diameter bore tunnel would result in a much deeper tunnel and stations. It is advantageous for Evergreen Line as it is going through a mountain (ie. deep tunnel) and there is no station so no excavation except the portal. This is not the case for Broadway.

My idea would be twin-bore or cut-and-cover under 10th, east of Arbutus. At-grade in the centre median between Blanca and Allison with a pedestrian overpass at Acadia plus a pedestrian+vehicular overpass at golf course entrance. Elevated west of Allison with elevated or at-grade UBC station. Between Arbutus and Blanca.. I don't know.. whatever that works I guess?

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

UBC is a natural. Most metropolitan rapid transit lines end in a suburban region where the demand and ridership tends to peter out to the minimum level needed to justify building the line that far. UBC is different - it's almost as large a trip generator as the central portion of the line. That will improve the line's overall utilization and revenue far more than an equivalent extension to other lines in our region would. It's a geographical bonus that we really ought to take advantage of, IMHO.

This is exactly why TransLink or the former BC Transit have almost all East-West Vancouver routes terminate at UBC. It is a strong trip-generator that will highly increase productivity of the route. Most of the bus routes in the region are connected to strong trip-generator at one or both ends - either downtown, a town centre, or a SkyTrain station. Bus routes that lack this on one or both ends are weak-performing by nature. This was stated in their service optimization documents.