Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Zassk]

UBC is not just another run-of-the-mill transit destination.

It is the biggest employment centre and transit destination after downtown and Central Broadway. And it is growing as fast or faster than any area of the suburbs.

There is nothing else in the metro region that comes close to it. YVR is the next largest by size after UBC, and by no coincidence, YVR has a transit line.

If you want to maximize your return on dollars spent on rapid transit, then yes, UBC is the destination to build it. Not just because it happens to be a straight shot from Broadway, but because of its own merits.

[usog]

Originally Posted by Zassk

UBC is not just another run-of-the-mill transit destination.

It is the biggest employment centre and transit destination after downtown and Central Broadway. And it is growing as fast or faster than any area of the suburbs.

There is nothing else in the metro region that comes close to it. YVR is the next largest by size after UBC, and by no coincidence, YVR has a transit line.

If you want to maximize your return on dollars spent on rapid transit, then yes, UBC is the destination to build it. Not just because it happens to be a straight shot from Broadway, but because of its own merits.

How nice of you to bring up YVR, you agree then that UBC should also pay the cost of extending skytrain to it then if they're so comparable. Going in circles here

I also agree with most of what SFUVancouer posted but in the end no matter what the merits are the political realities will pick what gets built and it won't be a UBC Line but probably a Broadway Line.

[andasen]

Originally Posted by SFUVancouver

The rhetorical arguments against SkyTrain to UBC sometimes seem to get tied in knots. If I've followed the recent and previous debates correctly, the level of service that currently serves the Central Broadway-UBC corridor (99 B-Line limited stop express service & #9 local stop trolley service) is considered excellent - or at least more than sufficient - and SkyTrain is not required despite the acknowledged presence of the region's greatest density and diversity of trip generators along the route, second only to the downtown core. However, the same level service (99 B-Line & local stop bus service) South of the Fraser in Surrey, with connections to the City of Langley and White Rock, would be unacceptable and only an investment in LRT, and possibly SkyTrain, is sufficient to meet the respective corridors' needs. This is despite the general absence of trip generators, low residential and employment densities outside of the route termini with some stretches of undeveloped ALR farmland in between, an entirely car-dependent built environment with limited pedestrian infrastructure and wide spacing between blocks and crosswalks, and initial ridership projections that would likely require subsidy until such time as land-use changes and development come on stream in quantity.

As others have noted, capital costs are only part of the equation - a small part in the life of a project - and it is operating costs that eat a transit system alive. This is the same debate - new rapid transit in the suburbs to shape growth and one day be warranted by use versus higher capacity service and new subways in urban areas where the current system is saturated and generating revenue surpluses - that has been going on in Toronto for years. The argument played out as it only being downtown elites, who could walk everywhere and chose to live in a dense urban area and they don't even know how good they've got things, and freeloading university kids who don't pay a dime in taxes, except that they do, who would benefit from new rapid transit, while the hardworking, salt of the earth, overburdened and overtaxed suburban families have been chronically short-changed by transit and they just cannot see why they shouldn't get a subway or two when there are already subways downtown so why build more?

It's the serve-versus-shape argument. Both sides have merit and in the absence of cost both should be followed. However, when you add operating costs to the equation, it simplifies matters. Build rapid transit on the corridors where it is needed most and will have its operating costs and debt servicing easily covered at the farebox, extend it incrementally out to suburban areas to connect to other urban centres in polynodal regions like ours after having first implemented high-capacity bus service (B-Lines & commuter express buses) to build ridership and begin shaping land use changes.

Having said all of that, there is a third dimension and that is politics and it cannot be ignored. Rob Ford is proof of this and the damage that they can wreak is substantial. I think that there is a very real likelihood that a Central Broadway to UBC extension of SkyTrain will have to wait and at least one LRT line will built in Surrey in the relatively near future. I maintain that combining the projects is the ideal way forward and if bundled as a single RPF, it could lead to lower costs for both projects than if they were issued separately and years apart. Furthermore, the likely poor operational economics of a LRT in Surrey could be blended with the likely revenue surpluses of the Central Broadway to UBC line, making the whole picture look better.

With the single RFP would pretty much mean precommitting ourselves to an expansion of the expo line down fraser. Don't see us getting significant savings if the technology split exist. The needs of each technology are quite different. Not that I see this as a bad thing. Onwards for simulations extension of millenium/evergreen line down broadway to granville (?) and expo extension to fleetwood (?).

[rsxstock]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

For $3 billion dollars, you can have BOTH Broadway (to Cambie / Canada Line) AND Surrey Rapid Transit! That way, both cities and its taxpayers benefit greatly and the entire region between them also benefits due to increase in destination options accessible by a far more extensive rapid transit network.

The only "looser" in this scenario will be UBC itself, since they won't have their students get too and from the Skytrain lines *FAST*, but if speed is so bloody important to them, let them pay for it, or wait until there is extra funds to build their leg (like how PoCo is waiting for their leg from the Evergreen Line).

I don't understand why in every one of your posts, you keep mentioning that only students benefit by having their transit time slightly shortened.

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by usog

How nice of you to bring up YVR, you agree then that UBC should also pay the cost of extending skytrain to it then if they're so comparable. Going in circles here

Not really in circles. The argument against building to UBC is silly. Expecting UBC to somehow contribute to the capital cost is not.

UBC has expended a significant portion of its endowment in recent years, but I have to think that they could still come up with the cost of the line from Blanca westward (which should be similar to the cost of the YVR spur). If an extra station on campus is a necessary condition for that support, then I say build it.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by rsxstock

I don't understand why in every one of your posts, you keep mentioning that only students benefit by having their transit time slightly shortened.

Because that is essentially what the pro-UBC extension proponents are really after, but they just don't want to admit it. They hide behind the needs of Broadway as an excuse to justify the additional cost that would be shouldered by everyone else. For some reason, they view the students of UBC (not SFU, UVic, Kwatlen, BCIT, etc.) as special and somehow deserve lightning speed access but should be paid by everyone else but the UBC students.

UBC extension proponents are simply piggy backing on the needs of the businesses and medical institutions at the Broadway corridor. Even some posts here suggest that majority of the Broadway Line users will be at the hospitals and offices, not the campus. But a dedicated bus shuttling students from a Cambie end station to the campus is more than adequate. It is good for SFU right now as they have to deal with a bus (or gondola) to connect them with Skytrian, so what makes UBC so "special" that we must spend additional billions just to satisfy them?

[Rico]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Because that is essentially what the pro-UBC extension proponents are really after, but they just don't want to admit it. They hide behind the needs of Broadway as an excuse to justify the additional cost that would be shouldered by everyone else. For some reason, they view the students of UBC (not SFU, UVic, Kwatlen, BCIT, etc.) as special and somehow deserve lightning speed access but should be paid by everyone else but the UBC students.

UBC extension proponents are simply piggy backing on the needs of the businesses and medical institutions at the Broadway corridor. Even some posts here suggest that majority of the Broadway Line users will be at the hospitals and offices, not the campus. But a dedicated bus shuttling students from a Cambie end station to the campus is more than adequate. It is good for SFU right now as they have to deal with a bus (or gondola) to connect them with Skytrian, so what makes UBC so "special" that we must spend additional billions just to satisfy them?

There is significant ridership up to Arbutus. Any extension would have to go at least to Arbutus. Cutting it off before Arbutus would also make it difficult to cut overlapping bus services and result in extra operating costs...and one of the most important reasons for RRT on Broadway is to reduce operating costs.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Rico

There is significant ridership up to Arbutus. Any extension would have to go at least to Arbutus. Cutting it off before Arbutus would also make it difficult to cut overlapping bus services and result in extra operating costs...and one of the most important reasons for RRT on Broadway is to reduce operating costs.

Cambie or Arbutus, the argument stands against going all the way to UBC. For me, Cambie is an absolute must for the Canada Line connection and should be done ASAP. Arbutus is "nice to have" if the additional cost won't be too much that the entire region suffers through no other expansion. All the way to UBC...only if UBC pays.

[jsbertram]

MJ is such a foolish twit.

I hope he knows that Toronto is building new transit lines on Eglinton, Finch and Sheppard using Bombardier LRT trains, so he should stop making comparisons to the heavy-rail subway extension to York U and Vaughn that is nearing completion.

At a cost of over $5.3 Billion, the Eglinton Crosstown LRT will add 19 km of new transit service of which 10 km will be underground between Keele and Laird.

Perhaps he should investigate why Toronto has decided they need to put over half of the new Eglinton Crosstown LRT line in tunnels, and then explain why Vancouver doesn't need to do the same on Broadway, even though Broadway has a higher concentration of private and public vehicles than Eglinton does.

Broadway from Commercial Dr. to UBC already has the highest bus ridership in North America, and today's passenger volumes (using buses) are higher than most LRT systems around the world.

By building LRT on Broadway, on opening day the LRT trains will already be near capacity with the existing passenger volumes, and will have no extra capacity for the expected future increase in passenger volumes.

Today’s passenger loads on Broadway already justify using Skytrain, because from opening day it will be able to carry the current passenger loads and will have the capacity to handle the expected passenger growth in the next few decades.

We've already seen that the Canada Line is more popular than was expected, and its annual passenger loads are running 5 years ahead of projections. Fortunately it was designed to handle three times the opening-day passenger loads by having smart incremental upgrades like buying more trains for the fleet, shorter wait-times between trains, and longer trains and platforms.

It seems that in Vancouver, if you build it correctly the first time, the passengers will come and use it.


Surrey wants to build its own LRT system, so if that happens we'll have real-world results on whether people prefer LRT or Skytrain for their transit needs.

[AMTDGT]

Originally Posted by Rico

There is significant ridership up to Arbutus. Any extension would have to go at least to Arbutus. Cutting it off before Arbutus would also make it difficult to cut overlapping bus services and result in extra operating costs...and one of the most important reasons for RRT on Broadway is to reduce operating costs.

Someone will correct me on this for sure, but my memory from when the M line was originally announced, the Province said they would pay for a phase 2 extension (maybe phase 3 - can't remember if the E extension was phase 2 or 3) as far as Granville (maybe it was Cambie). If the city wanted it to go as far as Arbutus, that would be included in the project IF the City of Vancouver paid for the cost between Granville (Cambie?) and Arbutus....So where is Moon Beam's cheque book in all this?

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Because that is essentially what the pro-UBC extension proponents are really after, but they just don't want to admit it. They hide behind the needs of Broadway as an excuse to justify the additional cost that would be shouldered by everyone else. For some reason, they view the students of UBC (not SFU, UVic, Kwatlen, BCIT, etc.) as special and somehow deserve lightning speed access but should be paid by everyone else but the UBC students.

UBC extension proponents are simply piggy backing on the needs of the businesses and medical institutions at the Broadway corridor. Even some posts here suggest that majority of the Broadway Line users will be at the hospitals and offices, not the campus. But a dedicated bus shuttling students from a Cambie end station to the campus is more than adequate. It is good for SFU right now as they have to deal with a bus (or gondola) to connect them with Skytrian, so what makes UBC so "special" that we must spend additional billions just to satisfy them?

Nobody here thinks UBC students are special. You`re the one who thinks they (and apparently every other person who doesn`t pay income taxes) are inferior.

UBC is the third largest transit destination in the region. Apparently that doesn`t sink into your mind. The ridership along the B-Line to UBC is enough to justify a rapid transit extension to UBC. UBC should contribute part of the cost of the extension, but to suggest that UBC is the sole beneficiary and should completely pay for the cost of the extension is inane. The main beneficiaries are students who live throughout the rest of the region, not UBC or the posh westside of Vancouver. These are students whose families likely struggle to pay for the tuition on top of paying taxes. It is quite common for these students to spend an hour commuting to UBC. How long is your commute and is it jam packed most of the time?

Clearly you still think UBC should pay for all the cost of extending beyond central Broadway to UBC despite the ridership and demand from throughout the region. Then I trust you also believe Surrey (or every other region for that matter) should also pay for their rapid transit because there is no single destination located in these corridors that have the ridership and demand anywhere close to that of UBC. As it has been mentioned before, most people who live in Surrey work in Surrey and vice versa. The main beneficiary of rapid transit lines in Surrey (especially LRT which is disconnected from the skytrain system) are those who live in Surrey. So clearly you must also think Surrey should pay for its own rapid transit lines.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by squeezied

UBC is the third largest transit destination in the region. Apparently that doesn`t sink into your mind. The ridership along the B-Line to UBC is enough to justify a rapid transit extension to UBC. UBC should contribute part of the cost of the extension, but to suggest that UBC is the sole beneficiary and should completely pay for the cost of the extension is inane. The main beneficiaries are students who live throughout the rest of the region, not UBC or the posh westside of Vancouver. These are students whose families likely struggle to pay for the tuition on top of paying taxes. It is quite common for these students to spend an hour commuting to UBC. How long is your commute and is it jam packed most of the time?

Clearly you still think UBC should pay for all the cost of extending beyond central Broadway to UBC despite the ridership and demand from throughout the region. Then I trust you also believe Surrey (or every other region for that matter) should also pay for their rapid transit because there is no single destination located in these corridors that have the ridership and demand anywhere close to that of UBC. As it has been mentioned before, most people who live in Surrey work in Surrey and vice versa. The main beneficiary of rapid transit lines in Surrey (especially LRT which is disconnected from the skytrain system) are those who live in Surrey. So clearly you must also think Surrey should pay for its own rapid transit lines.

Surrey ALREADY PAYS more than its fair share for rapid transit expansion that has been built and continue to be built since the inception of Translink. And note that even Surrey has actually thought of going it alone in a few occassions, and they are capable of doing so, if they so desire.

UBC on the other hand is just piggy backing from Broadway (which ends on or shortly after Alma). They can easily build more student housing (and subsidize it) for those who do not live in the immediate area, and note that most post secondary students won't go to the UBC campus anyway. There is SFU and other schools that they go to. If they choose to go to UBC despite their commute, its their own perogative.

If YVR can pay for their share of Canada Line, and the mall owners of Coquitlam Centre can pay for their own Lincoln station on the Evergreen Line, I don't see why UBC can't pay their own extension beyond Arbutus.

SFU at Burnaby Mountain is a major destination too, but I don't see anyone lobbying for the Skytrain to be extended there. Even if they get the gondola, its still a *gasp* transfer...

[nname]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Surrey ALREADY PAYS more than its fair share for rapid transit expansion that has been built and continue to be built since the inception of Translink. And note that even Surrey has actually thought of going it alone in a few occassions, and they are capable of doing so, if they so desire.

And I just hate seeing comment like this and I've been saying this many times. Rapid Transit is only a tiny amount of what TransLink pay for transit service. Both Evergreen and Canada Line are less than $70M a year; operating and capital for road and bridges are about $100M a year; operating all 3 SkyTrain lines are more than $200M a year; cost of running buses is more than $800M a year.

Surrey, or entire SoF in general, had received more than 45% increase in service since 2007. Since 2010, they actually cut service in other regions and gave them to SoF.

The Tri-Cities, for example, had probably lost more than enough service which the operating cost is more than enough to pay for TransLink's share of capital for the Evergreen Line... And its not like the buses are empty too. The last time I rode the 177, it got a good 25+ load and 35+ boardings and they insist that is bad performing. They cut the 179 and C28 and make the 188 so inadequate that there are pass-up every single day, even for the last C28 bus at 11pm sometimes...

For seeing comment like this, it makes me feel happy to see Surrey and SoF go so other regions can get their service back..

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by nname

Surrey, or entire SoF in general, had received more than 45% increase in service since 2007. Since 2010, they actually cut service in other regions and gave them to SoF.

For seeing comment like this, it makes me feel happy to see Surrey and SoF go so other regions can get their service back..

Well is it Surrey OR SoF?

And if SoF leaves, all the more reason Translink won't be able to raise the funds for the Broadway Line (up to Cambie / Arbutus).

Personally, I don't see why the leg from Arbutus to UBC is so desired by some people here. Is it because it looks pretty on a map?

Of the 100k riders, how many of them actually get off on or before Arbutus? Isn't those people why there is a *need* for the Broadway Rapid Transit to begin with?

[nname]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Well is it Surrey OR SoF?

SoF - Surrey, Langley, White Rock, and North Delta (but not including South Delta - I track them as part of Richmond)

Comparing GTFS schedule data from Sept 2007 and Sept 2013 -
SoF gained 44%,
North Van 18%,
Richmond 12%,
Burnaby 8%,
ancouver 7%,
Coquitlam 6%

Comparing GTFS schedule data from Sept 2009 and Sept 2013 -
SoF gained 13%,
North Van 9%,
Vancouver 1%,
Burnaby stayed even,
Richmond LOST 2%,
Coquitlam LOST 7%


The next round of axes would be on Richmond again...

[WBC]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Well is it Surrey OR SoF?

And if SoF leaves, all the more reason Translink won't be able to raise the funds for the Broadway Line (up to Cambie / Arbutus).

Personally, I don't see why the leg from Arbutus to UBC is so desired by some people here. Is it because it looks pretty on a map?

Of the 100k riders, how many of them actually get off on or before Arbutus? Isn't those people why there is a *need* for the Broadway Rapid Transit to begin with?

I do not see it either. The other issue is that in 10-20 years most students won't be even going to be physically present at university. Heck, they do not need to be present now...The world is changing...How we work and learn is changing as well, yet we insist on the same brick and mortar concepts that have been relevant in the past. When I was a student at SFU in the 90s I was not attending half of my lectures in years 1 and 2 as it was absolutely useless to sit in auditorium with 500 students and listen to prof regurgitate something that you could find out by opening a textbook.

Build the subway to Arbutus, stop there and see what happens

[squeezied]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

Of the 100k riders, how many of them actually get off on or before Arbutus? Isn't those people why there is a *need* for the Broadway Rapid Transit to begin with?

Originally Posted by squeezied

UBC is the third largest transit destination in the region. Apparently that doesn't sink into your mind.

It's safe to assume a significant portion of the ridership is destined to UBC.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by squeezied

It's safe to assume a significant portion of the ridership is destined to UBC.

According to the forecast a little under 1/3 of the peak will be going to UBC.

[squeezied]

That's sounds about right. I recalled seeing it was a third of the ridership from a few years back. The most recent article I read stated that half the riders along broadway are destined to UBC but that seemed too high.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by squeezied

That's sounds about right. I recalled seeing it was a third of the ridership from a few years back. The most recent article I read stated that half the riders along broadway are destined to UBC but that seemed too high.

So let me get this straight.....I don't have the exact measurement but just by looking at google map, approximately half of the "UBC Line" is up to Arbutus, and the other half is from Arbutus to UBC itself. Most of that leg will be underneath low density properties, some being the most expensive in the Province, if not country.

And you want the sheer expense of that second leg to be paid by the entire region, with a token *contribution* from UBC, to service 33k people, mostly students?

And add to that....

Originally Posted by WBC

I do not see it either. The other issue is that in 10-20 years most students won't be even going to be physically present at university. Heck, they do not need to be present now...The world is changing...How we work and learn is changing as well, yet we insist on the same brick and mortar concepts that have been relevant in the past. When I was a student at SFU in the 90s I was not attending half of my lectures in years 1 and 2 as it was absolutely useless to sit in auditorium with 500 students and listen to prof regurgitate something that you could find out by opening a textbook.

I don't know how much it would cost just to get to Arbutus, but lets use the $3 billion figure, divide it by 12 km, so its $250 million per km. So if half is built, its $1.5 billion to service the 2/3 of 100k, or 66k that would get off Arbutus, then another 1.5 billion to service the 1/3 of 100k, or 33k that would go all the way to UBC.

$1.5 billion, more than Evergreen Line, more per km than Canada Line....are the UBC students, who don't even need to be on campus, even that worth it?