Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Whalleyboy]

Originally Posted by squeezied

I don't dispute that public safety is of utmost importance. But this just sounds like a convenient excuse from the pro-Surrey/anti-Broadway guys to downplay on the importance of the Broadway line. I take it you guys don't support expansion of any kind, because there will always be existing infrastructures that need to be upgraded or replaced.

If public funding should only be prioritized towards the issues of existing infrastructures, then that's more of a case for the Broadway line to go ahead well before the Surrey LRT.

Yeah stuff will always need to be replaced but we are talking about a life threatening bridge I think it kinda out does an upgrade to the broadway B-line. I am normally pro expansion but the pattullo is not just a Surrey thing. People of Burnaby, New Westminster, Delta, Langley, Tri-cities area and yes Surrey all use this bridge. But this bridge is not safe anymore it has to be replaced. On top of the earth quake and boat factor. You can add its barely safe during the day to even drive on with the high chance of head on traffic collision it has.

While yes broadway b-line does need to be replaced it won't lead to more deaths if it is not. If you are a person who takes easier/faster access to an areas over safety and well being of a human being you may want to think twice.

[WarrenC12]

Hyperbole much?

[usog]

Originally Posted by Echowinds

You build the Broadway line mainly to serve the 2nd most important employment centre after the downtown core. Building it to UBC is just something that should be done for efficiency, since you're going to eventually build it anyways and it's cheaper in the long run to build it in one go. While connecting it to UBC is not the most critical thing for the region, it is still a growing area and one of the more crucial institution in BC. It also has quite an economic impact for the region. I also don't see the constant harping that UBC students are not deserving of faster transit times just like everyone else, especially considering UBC students that use transit comes from all across the metro. Building a line to Langley, for instance, will only mainly benefit Surrey and Langley residents, but a line to UBC and Broadway will benefit nearly everyone, even if the main beneficiary is still Vancouver. The no-brainer line should the fund be available, really.

Public safety is all well and good, but in general draw a line somewhere because there's always areas to improve in this department. Balance must be found in maintaining the current infrastructure and building new pieces to accommodate the expanding population. A larger earthquake will demolish other bridges like the Oak just as much as it would the Patullo, so should we go out of the way to rebuild every bridge in the name of safety? The Patullo is even less of a national concern considering it's really just a local bridge intended for local traffic, and there are alternatives in the area, including a bridge we just spent billions on. Patullo definitely needs to be rebuilt in the near future, but I don't really consider it any more of a national concern compared to the Broadway line.

And really, Robertson is doing the right thing to promote the most pressing infrastructural need for his city right now.

You're saying spending billions extra on the full extension to UBC rather than just Granville is a matter of efficiency? Are the UBC students who already receive very, very nice transit service more deserving than working-class residents of Metro Vancouver who often lack reliable, if any, transit service? Does UBC deserve what amounts to a a massive subsidy to clean up their housing mess?

Do people in the North Shore or South of Fraser regions not even merit your consideration? It's not like there's bodies of water in the way of people's commutes and regional arterial routes which actually are critically important to the local economy. Clearly UBC students having a slightly improved commute is *much* more important than letting workers or companies conduct their business.

[squeezied]

Ride the 99 B-line during morning rush and you'd realize it's anything but a "very, very nice transit service" nor is it reliable when multiple buses pass you.

The entire region merits consideration when it comes to transit planning. Consider the fact that after downtown, Broadway corridor and UBC are the second and third, respectively, largest transit destinations in the region and the fact that existing infrastructures cannot accommodate the current riderships, that's enough justification to extend rapid transit all the way to UBC.

If I recall correctly, half the people who travel along the Broadway Corridor don't even originate from Vancouver. It's safe to say a UBC Line would service mostly people from the entire region beyond Vancouver. UBC is also a major employment centre, it's not just "spoiled" students who are benefiting.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by squeezied

Ride the 99 B-line during morning rush and you'd realize it's anything but a "very, very nice transit service" nor is it reliable when multiple buses pass you.

The entire region merits consideration when it comes to transit planning. Consider the fact that after downtown, Broadway corridor and UBC are the second and third, respectively, largest transit destinations in the region and the fact that existing infrastructures cannot accommodate the current riderships, that's enough justification to extend rapid transit all the way to UBC.

If I recall correctly, half the people who travel along the Broadway Corridor don't even originate from Vancouver. It's safe to say a UBC Line would service mostly people from the entire region beyond Vancouver. UBC is also a major employment centre, it's not just "spoiled" students who are benefiting.

Yeah, exactly. You only need to compare 99 ridership to 96 to realise how much more important a subway is to Broadway. To Surrey, Skytrain would be a huge convenience and they want it because lots of other places have it. For Broadway, a subway is an absolute necessity at this point.

I wouldn't be against phasing the Broadway line, but only so that it can be relieved faster. So as soon as you have money for one section, you can build it cause it will still help out. However, after you finish a section I think translink should start saving up for the next extension, and we can take care of Surrey after the Broadway line goes all the way to UBC.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by squeezied

The entire region merits consideration when it comes to transit planning. Consider the fact that after downtown, Broadway corridor and UBC are the second and third, respectively, largest transit destinations in the province and the fact that existing infrastructures cannot accommodate the current riderships, that's enough justification to extend rapid transit all the way to UBC.

[replaced region with province]

I recall reading that the employment numbers in the Central Broadway-UBC corridor is greater than any place in the province, other than downtown Vancouver. That means that it is larger than Victoria, for what it's worth, let alone any of Metro Vancouver's regional town centres.

In my opinion, the extension of SkyTrain under Broadway to UBC should be packaged with the three-line LRT & B-Line to White Rock rapid transit plan for South of the Fraser. I would go further and suggest that it should be a single mega RFP.

[usog]

Originally Posted by squeezied

Ride the 99 B-line during morning rush and you'd realize it's anything but a "very, very nice transit service" nor is it reliable when multiple buses pass you.

The entire region merits consideration when it comes to transit planning. Consider the fact that after downtown, Broadway corridor and UBC are the second and third, respectively, largest transit destinations in the region and the fact that existing infrastructures cannot accommodate the current riderships, that's enough justification to extend rapid transit all the way to UBC.

If I recall correctly, half the people who travel along the Broadway Corridor don't even originate from Vancouver. It's safe to say a UBC Line would service mostly people from the entire region beyond Vancouver. UBC is also a major employment centre, it's not just "spoiled" students who are benefiting.

I specifically referenced the part from Granville(or Alma if you want) to UBC, not the entire Broadway Corridor. And god forbid people get passed up on a bus that comes every 5-10 minutes, let's forget about the people who have a bus every 30-60 minutes or none at all.

I'm 100% in agreement Broadway needs Skytrain, but UBC doesn't warrant the extra money and political capital spending from the government. YVR paid for their part, UBC should as well because anything else is basically more money for UBC from the government. Also judging by how much angst happened the last time we ran transit through the "Creme de la Creme", good luck getting it through Vancouver West.

If you went to all the mayors and levels of government and said "let's get skytrain down the Broadway Corridor somehow" you'd have a reasonable chance of success. Try saying "Skytrain to UBC or nothing at all" and you'll probably get your nothing. I'm just being realistic here.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by usog

I specifically referenced the part from Granville(or Alma if you want) to UBC, not the entire Broadway Corridor. And god forbid people get passed up on a bus that comes every 5-10 minutes, let's forget about the people who have a bus every 30-60 minutes or none at all.

I'm 100% in agreement Broadway needs Skytrain, but UBC doesn't warrant the extra money and political capital spending from the government. YVR paid for their part, UBC should as well because anything else is basically more money for UBC from the government. Also judging by how much angst happened the last time we ran transit through the "Creme de la Creme", good luck getting it through Vancouver West.

If you went to all the mayors and levels of government and said "let's get skytrain down the Broadway Corridor somehow" you'd have a reasonable chance of success. Try saying "Skytrain to UBC or nothing at all" and you'll probably get your nothing. I'm just being realistic here.

I agree that UBC should help pay for it, but they haven't been too excited about the idea for now.

[Alex Mackinnon]

They can't just take money out of the endowment for improvements. That's not how it's setup.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Yeah, exactly. You only need to compare 99 ridership to 96 to realise how much more important a subway is to Broadway. To Surrey, Skytrain would be a huge convenience and they want it because lots of other places have it. For Broadway, a subway is an absolute necessity at this point.

I wouldn't be against phasing the Broadway line, but only so that it can be relieved faster. So as soon as you have money for one section, you can build it cause it will still help out. However, after you finish a section I think translink should start saving up for the next extension, and we can take care of Surrey after the Broadway line goes all the way to UBC.

How is it an "absolute necessity"?

Will UBC / VGH / Broadway businesse cease to function without the subway? Will enrollments / employment / business transaction go down to zero? Will UBC /VGH / Broadway business staff start quitting their jobs if they don't have a subway? Will the university / Broadway corridor shut itself down if Surrey gets rapid transit first?

The more I read some of these comments, the less support I have for this project. I understand the corridor needs improvements, but it seems the most avid supporters goes back to really just prioritizing the saved time for UBC students more than the other people in the region.

Build it up to the Canada Line station if you must, but anything beyond that, it should be funded literally by extra money that is not needed anywhere else. If you UBC an extension and station, they should pay for it by whatever means they can do. The Airport leg of the Canada Line and the Lincoln Station of Evergreen line was paid by entities that want it, why should UBC be any different?

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

How is it an "absolute necessity"?

Will UBC / VGH / Broadway businesse cease to function without the subway? Will enrollments / employment / business transaction go down to zero? Will UBC /VGH / Broadway business staff start quitting their jobs if they don't have a subway? Will the university / Broadway corridor shut itself down if Surrey gets rapid transit first?

The more I read some of these comments, the less support I have for this project. I understand the corridor needs improvements, but it seems the most avid supporters goes back to really just prioritizing the saved time for UBC students more than the other people in the region.

Build it up to the Canada Line station if you must, but anything beyond that, it should be funded literally by extra money that is not needed anywhere else. If you UBC an extension and station, they should pay for it by whatever means they can do. The Airport leg of the Canada Line and the Lincoln Station of Evergreen line was paid by entities that want it, why should UBC be any different?

It's an absolute necessity because the 99 B-Line is the busiest bus route in North America. Transit in the corridor is struggling to keep up with demand. And I agree that UBC should help pay for it, but I think it's unquestionable that Broadway is THE most important transit corridor in the region. I mean, it's not like it will stop functioning, but what other public transit project is more needed for Metro Vancouver? Besides, as has been mentioned several times UBC is the third highest employment region in Greater Vancouver, 2nd being Broadway. It's not just students that would benefit from this.

Besides, what's wrong with making it faster for students to get to UBC? Is their time somehow less valuable than the guy living in Newton who wants to take a Skytrain instead of a bus?

[WarrenC12]

Nothing is an absolute necessity if that's how you want to frame things. We could close the Patullo bridge tomorrow due to safety concerns and life would go on.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

Nothing is an absolute necessity if that's how you want to frame things. We could close the Patullo bridge tomorrow due to safety concerns and life would go on.

You guys know what I mean.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

It's an absolute necessity because the 99 B-Line is the busiest bus route in North America. Transit in the corridor is struggling to keep up with demand. And I agree that UBC should help pay for it, but I think it's unquestionable that Broadway is THE most important transit corridor in the region. I mean, it's not like it will stop functioning, but what other public transit project is more needed for Metro Vancouver? Besides, as has been mentioned several times UBC is the third highest employment region in Greater Vancouver, 2nd being Broadway. It's not just students that would benefit from this.

UBC being the third highest employment region???? First time I've heard of that. And just because Broadway is the "most important" doesn't mean squat at the greater scheme of things. There is already existing transit in Broadway for many years, its just not as fast as a subway.

And as far as I can tell, none of the businesses and institutions there require speed, nor the density for its existing ridership. Making travel time faster for 100k people does not justify $3 billion worth of investment all the way to UBC. Its justified to Canada Line (which should cost significantly less than $3 billion) just so that there would be additional access to more riders from other parts of the region that can go to the Canada Line destinations (and vice versa), as well as some Broadway destinations.

Originally Posted by GlassCity

Besides, what's wrong with making it faster for students to get to UBC? Is their time somehow less valuable than the guy living in Newton who wants to take a Skytrain instead of a bus?

The time for UBC students is far less valuable than property owners, drivers, and transit riders who lives in areas that are poorly served and simply HAVE NO CHOICE but to drive. The UBC students ALREADY have transit that is suitable for them (yet many choose to drive). They don't need to be at the campus ASAP (and if they are late for a test, then they should have learned to budget their time), don't pay as much taxes, already gets subsidized by others from the rest of the region, Province and country, like the "guy from Newton".

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

UBC being the third highest employment region???? First time I've heard of that. And just because Broadway is the "most important" doesn't mean squat at the greater scheme of things. There is already existing transit in Broadway for many years, its just not as fast as a subway.

And as far as I can tell, none of the businesses and institutions there require speed, nor the density for its existing ridership. Making travel time faster for 100k people does not justify $3 billion worth of investment all the way to UBC. Its justified to Canada Line (which should cost significantly less than $3 billion) just so that there would be additional access to more riders from other parts of the region that can go to the Canada Line destinations (and vice versa), as well as some Broadway destinations.



The time for UBC students is far less valuable than property owners, drivers, and transit riders who lives in areas that are poorly served and simply HAVE NO CHOICE but to drive. The UBC students ALREADY have transit that is suitable for them (yet many choose to drive). They don't need to be at the campus ASAP (and if they are late for a test, then they should have learned to budget their time), don't pay as much taxes, already gets subsidized by others from the rest of the region, Province and country, like the "guy from Newton".

It's not just because it's not as fast. It's because the ridership is way higher than the capacity of the buses on the corridor. Buses are packed like sardine cans. People get passed up by 3-4 buses at a time. With your logic we should never build rapid transit anywhere because there is already existing transit service.

The rest of the region would also use the Broadway Line. You sound like people in suburban Toronto against the Downtown Relief Line, because they think it serves only downtown. Same with Broadway, if Broadway and UBC are the #2 and 3 employment areas, it would be used by a lot more people than just the ones that live in the area, including the guy from Newton.

What do you propose we spend the $3 billion dollars on then? What other area deserves better transit more than Broadway? Keep in mind that I have absolutely no connection to Broadway and haven't even been there in a few months, for what it's worth.

[usog]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

It's an absolute necessity because the 99 B-Line is the busiest bus route in North America. Transit in the corridor is struggling to keep up with demand. And I agree that UBC should help pay for it, but I think it's unquestionable that Broadway is THE most important transit corridor in the region. I mean, it's not like it will stop functioning, but what other public transit project is more needed for Metro Vancouver? Besides, as has been mentioned several times UBC is the third highest employment region in Greater Vancouver, 2nd being Broadway. It's not just students that would benefit from this.

Besides, what's wrong with making it faster for students to get to UBC? Is their time somehow less valuable than the guy living in Newton who wants to take a Skytrain instead of a bus?

Yes, BROADWAY is an important transit corridor not UBC. The entitlement for skytrain to UBC is astounding to me. Yes the guy living in Newton who wants to take Skytrain is more important for reasons everyone else mentioned. That guy is much more likely to be working class(every dollar counts!) and supporting one or more people as well as paying taxes. The typical consumer of skytrain to UBC...not so much. They're either a student or someone well off and driving wouldn't inconvenience them too much.

To be brutally honest, UBC students are a captive audience to transit and jumping over them as a group in favor of others would not have much consequence as others have also mentioned. The incremental benefit for a student would be at most 30 minutes per day per person on Skytrain verses a bus. If they took those billions and spread them around to improve the commute and flow of goods for the entire region, the net benefit would be much higher.

Even if UBC is a huge employment center for Vancouver it just makes it more compelling for them to pay their rightful share as the line destination. The UBC extension would be solely for benefit of UBC as an institution because can you really say that their jobs provide services or goods that the rest of Vancouver as a region partakes in? As a large employment center UBC should have the resources to finance an investment that is so for their benefit. Surely they could find the money for something they want so badly.

Broadway Line yes, UBC line no.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by usog

Yes, BROADWAY is an important transit corridor not UBC. The entitlement for skytrain to UBC is astounding to me. Yes the guy living in Newton who wants to take Skytrain is more important for reasons everyone else mentioned. That guy is much more likely to be working class(every dollar counts!) and supporting one or more people as well as paying taxes. The typical consumer of skytrain to UBC...not so much. They're either a student or someone well off and driving wouldn't inconvenience them too much.

To be brutally honest, UBC students are a captive audience to transit and jumping over them as a group in favor of others would not have much consequence as others have also mentioned. The incremental benefit for a student would be at most 30 minutes per day per person on Skytrain verses a bus. If they took those billions and spread them around to improve the commute and flow of goods for the entire region, the net benefit would be much higher.

Even if UBC is a huge employment center for Vancouver it just makes it more compelling for them to pay their rightful share as the line destination. The UBC extension would be solely for benefit of UBC as an institution because can you really say that their jobs provide services or goods that the rest of Vancouver as a region partakes in? As a large employment center UBC should have the resources to finance an investment that is so for their benefit. Surely they could find the money for something they want so badly.

Broadway Line yes, UBC line no.

I should clarify my position. I'm not against phasing, to Cambie first, then Granville etc.. however you want to do it. However if the buses to UBC stay packed I think it's more important to continue the line out there with guaranteed high ridership than a line to Newton because some guy thinks it's unfair that other, denser regions get to have it.

Now if you extend the Millennium (or I guess soon to be Evergreen) line out to Cambie and it's discovered that all of a sudden the 99 B-Line isn't in trouble anymore, then I'm all for spending the saved money on enhanced bus service all over the region. In fact, I think this is exactly how the situation should be handled. However if they use that money to extend the Expo Line out to Newton then that's ridiculous.

By the way, I've said like 3 times today alone that I think UBC should help pay for the line if it goes directly to UBC. Are you guys even reading my entire posts?

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

And as far as I can tell, none of the businesses and institutions there require speed, nor the density for its existing ridership. Making travel time faster for 100k people does not justify $3 billion worth of investment all the way to UBC. Its justified to Canada Line (which should cost significantly less than $3 billion) just so that there would be additional access to more riders from other parts of the region that can go to the Canada Line destinations (and vice versa), as well as some Broadway destinations.

The time for UBC students is far less valuable than property owners, drivers, and transit riders who lives in areas that are poorly served and simply HAVE NO CHOICE but to drive. The UBC students ALREADY have transit that is suitable for them (yet many choose to drive). They don't need to be at the campus ASAP (and if they are late for a test, then they should have learned to budget their time), don't pay as much taxes, already gets subsidized by others from the rest of the region, Province and country, like the "guy from Newton".

1) In this case speed = ridership. There's a reason why the LRT had moderate ridership expectations. It's barely any faster than BRT and won't capture riders many riders who currently drive.

2) From the get go a UBC line expects to have 150,000 riders daily. More than the Evergreen Line and Millennium line combined. More than the Likely more than all 3 proposed Surrey LRT lines combined. The UBC crowd would likely be somewhere near 80,000 of that.

3) The undergrad student ridership is mostly captive to transit since most can't afford a car and parking at UBC is about $8/d. The majority to be gained are people that drive most places, but probably shouldn't given where the live. That's a potential huge gain for the area. Newton guy may be captive to his car, but UBC guy is probably already transit captive, even if the UPass price goes up.

4) The "guy from newton" also doesn't pay much in terms of taxes anyways. This is a moronic point. It's pretty likely that a community like Newton is a net sink in tax revenue. According to Surrey's stats average income in Newton (in 2008) was $29K. A grand total of 32,273 people in Newton made above $25,000. At UBC (according to Wikipedia) there are 27,937 Staff, Academic Staff and Graduate Students; most of which I would venture make $25,000 or greater. The "guy from Point Grey" probably pays more income taxes than the average income in Newton. Again though, this doesn't matter since we are at least a somewhat socialist society, being a student is legit job (for a while anyways) and transit shouldn't be planning according to capitalist idealism.

5) Per rider, the UBC line is approximately the same cost as the Canada Line.

http://www.surrey.ca/files/2006-Total-Income.pdf

[nname]

For the people who say UBC have nothing but students that contribute little to the economy.. Well.. UBC is actually the biggest buyer of employee pass before it got cancelled. The second biggest, VGH, happens to be on Broadway too...

Here are all the companies who purchased 150 passes or more:

University of British Columbia		1,404
Vancouver General Hospital		1,042
Provincial Health Services Authority	  907
Modo the Car Co-op			  748
Provincial Government			  702
BC Hydro & Power Authority		  596
City of Vancouver			  555
Providence Health Care			  507
SAP					  449
Fraser Health Authority			  389
ICBC					  379
Vancity					  372
Shaw Cablesystem			  371
Royal Bank				  332
AMEC America Ltd.			  271
HSBC Bank Canada			  251
Manulife Financial			  240
Scotiabank				  226
SNC Lavalin				  195
Aramark					  192
Simon Fraser University			  192
Canaccord Genuity Corp			  190
Whole Foods Market			  190
Canada Post				  171
KPMG Management				  164
PWGSC					  163
Stantec					  163
CIBC					  159
Harbour Centre Complex			  152
PWC Management				  150

(Source)

[logan5]

Doesn't UBC have a lot of valuable land? Sell enough land to pay for the UBC leg, then use the money raised from the sale of the Jericho lands to pay for the Broadway leg.

I find it kind of ridiculous that we would have a rapid transit line running through a golf course. Can't a land swap deal be made with the Musqueam so that the golf course can be developed, then a new golf course could be built away from the Skytrain Line.