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  #1541  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 8:10 PM
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miesian miesian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by relnahe View Post
They do have high-rises in NYC.
Toll Bros is building one of the best new rental/condo projects in NYC---400 Park Ave S by Portzamparc, plus lots more. Good news!
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  #1542  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 8:18 PM
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
They're in the process of selling it (land and zoning approvals) to Toll Brothers.

They're trying to speed up the process. They want to start construction before Dranoff starts SLS International.

Given the Toll Brothers location (19th Walnut-best available lot in the city) I'm not sure they have to rush although I can understand their reasoning.Location is a HR here they need to take their time and do this right. This is the last piece to the Rittenhouse puzzle.

Toll has 6 projects in NYC and they are all sold out. They have 5 more in progress / pipeline including 400 park Ave.


400 Park Ave- Toll Brothers



The Touraine-east 65th St

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  #1543  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 8:21 PM
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  #1544  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 8:24 PM
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
From student housing to luxury apartments. This may also require student housing be built for UArts

http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/...ve-of-arts-building-sells-new-plans.html

Good to here. Hopefully they spruce this building up a bit, its deserving of a bath.
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  #1545  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 8:26 PM
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Originally Posted by iamrobk View Post
Wow. Very exciting! How much experience does Toll Brothers have in doing condo towers though?
They have several highrises in NY (and 1 in Hoboken I think), so they do have experience with condominium towers. They really are doubling down on their urban products, huh?

@Summer, awesome update - you never disappoint and your scoops are always correct.
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  #1546  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 8:43 PM
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With SLS, Toll at 19th and the PBJ JLL deal today lots of high end condos - not sure there is a market to support this much high end stuff all at once - wonder who will be left standing...
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  #1547  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 8:51 PM
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Originally Posted by Kidphilly View Post
With SLS, Toll at 19th and the PBJ JLL deal today lots of high end condos - not sure there is a market to support this much high end stuff all at once - wonder who will be left standing...
Avenue of the Arts building deal? That's apartments not condos.
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  #1548  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 8:52 PM
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That Touraine is sexy. I like it.
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  #1549  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 9:05 PM
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That Touraine is sexy. I like it.
We have a sexy Touraine of our own

http://www.reinholdresidential.com/touraine/about.aspx
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  #1550  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 9:06 PM
theSisko theSisko is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
Avenue of the Arts building deal? That's apartments not condos.
Since SLS is apartments and not condos, why would Toll Bros. scramble to get everything approved quickly so they can start construction before Dranoff? Two different projects. Don't get me wrong, if Toll wants to start construction that quick I'm not going to complain.
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  #1551  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 9:10 PM
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Originally Posted by theSisko View Post
Since SLS is apartments and not condos, why would Toll Bros. scramble to get everything approved quickly so they can start construction before Dranoff? Two different projects. Don't get me wrong, if Toll wants to start construction that quick I'm not going to complain.
SLS is condos, not apartments. So there's that.
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  #1552  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 9:15 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by theSisko View Post
Since SLS is apartments and not condos, why would Toll Bros. scramble to get everything approved quickly so they can start construction before Dranoff? Two different projects. Don't get me wrong, if Toll wants to start construction that quick I'm not going to complain.
I'm guessing they're racing for labor priority over Dranoff- not that Dranoff will have much of an issue.
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  #1553  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 9:19 PM
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Originally Posted by Cro Burnham View Post
. . . or the new Penn residential commons or the competed Drexel complex at 32 & Chestnut.
not highrises
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  #1554  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 9:30 PM
theSisko theSisko is offline
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Originally Posted by tsarstruck View Post
SLS is condos, not apartments. So there's that.
I stand corrected. Thank you.
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  #1555  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 9:51 PM
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Here we go again about Philly's declining middle class.

For one, all these new highrise condos and apartment charging hefty condo prices and rent seems at odds with the articles. Can someone explain this?

See link:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20140225_New_Pew_report_shows_city_s_middle-class_shrinking.html
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  #1556  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 10:26 PM
theSisko theSisko is offline
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MIC Tower

http://www.philly.com/philly/business/20140225_Market_East_tower_won_t_be_an_eye-catcher.html

Philly.Com weighs in on the MIC Tower.......and it's not Inga.....
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  #1557  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 10:28 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by iheartphilly View Post
Here we go again about Philly's declining middle class.

For one, all these new highrise condos and apartment charging hefty condo prices and rent seems at odds with the articles. Can someone explain this?

See link:

http://www.philly.com/philly/news/20140225_New_Pew_report_shows_city_s_middle-class_shrinking.html
1) The report deals with the period from 1970 to 2010. There have been many, many ups and downs during that period.

2) The people renting luxury apartments and buying condos in highrises are not what most folks would consider "middle class". Pew's definition ($41K to $123K in 2010 dollars) includes a lot of folks not in that market.

3) There is a lot of city outside the growing ring of new apartment highrises and $400K townhomes. The Northeast and Northwest continue to decline in population, with the only influxes coming from intercity neighborhoods and new immigrant populations - with many folks below that Pew definition.
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  #1558  
Old Posted Feb 24, 2014, 11:21 PM
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Quote:
Here we go again about Philly's declining middle class.

For one, all these new highrise condos and apartment charging hefty condo prices and rent seems at odds with the articles. Can someone explain this?
The confusion may be over what you think of as "middle class". The middle class increasingly seems to be comprised of a smaller and smaller group of college+ educated "professionals", the type of people who continue to live in greater Center City, NW Philly, the Mainline and other wealthy suburbs. Increasingly, the middle class does not include people in blue collar work settings, although it used to.

I think the statistics bear out that more people in blue collar jobs are getting paid less. So I'm guessing that as many older "middle class" blue collar workers retire, move to the suburbs, the sunbelt, or die, their jobs, if they still exist are being filled by far lower-paid people who no longer qualify as middle class.

I imagine this dynamic really impacts Northeast Philly, for example, where alot of older "middle class" blue collar whites lived. Now they are leaving in droves and being replaced by poorer people - either people escaping poor or gentrifying sections of the city closer to the center, or altogether new people: primarily poor immigrants from Asia and Latin America. Maybe even from poorer Hispanic communities in the NY Metro? - that, at least, seems to have accounted for alot of the new population in Allentown/Bethlehem.

But the lower Northeast is surely getting alot poorer and alot more ethnically diverse, and alot more like an "inner city" neighborhood. 30 years ago, NE Philly (along with, say, Roxborough) was considered to be more like a moderate income suburb for blue collar whites. Even then, in spite of its "middle class status", the college-education rate was probably considerably lower in the NE than what you would find in, say, West Mt. Airy or University City or Center City. But the demographic transformation there seems to be like that which one would find in many increasingly diverse inner suburbs with cheap, modest housing stock that appeals to the inner city poor and immigrants alike. There seems to be no doubt that older middle class blue collar whites are leaving the city in droves (as they have been for 50 years). But these generally have never been the same demographic as the people moving into Center City highrises and "hipster" neighborhoods.

In addition, to the extent that central Philly is attracting more net new young college educated people, given that these people are just starting out, one might assume they are "poorer" than retiring blue collar workers and pensioners that are moving to warmer or more bucolic settings outside the region or city.

Over the short term, my guess is this dynamic won't really effect greater Center City, which seems to attract large numbers of educated people with greater economic mobility, while large sections of the rest of the city - those areas with dated, relatively small and unattractive but functional and inexpensive 2-story housing stock built between WWI and the early 1960s (eg, SW Philly, much of W Philly west of 52nd Street, the Lower NE, Olney, Logan, East Mt. Airy, Logan, West Oak Lane) - will grow increasingly poor.

Over the longer term, my sense is that the impact on Center City is far less predictable.

My assumption is that the city's indigenous population of poor people with minimal formal education will remain poor (as they have for decades), and will continue to migrate from gentrifying areas around the core to places like the lower NE, Pennsauken, eastern Delaware County, parts of Gloucester County, etc. I suppose there is a possibility that the likely financial drain caused by increased poverty and economic disparity on the city and poorer suburban counties will impede the development greater Center City to the extent that it results in a higher tax burden for wealthier people.

My guess is that part of greater Center City's long-term growth will likely hinge on the success of the immigrant population in climbing the economic ladder and on whether those immigrants and their kids decide to stay in the city and participate in the renaissance of the core.

The Pew data might be read to reflect, in general, the expanding economic divide in the country between the growing number of poor - which increasingly consists not only of blue collar and grey collar people, but also college-educated people with lower valued skill-sets -and an increasingly rarified group of succesful entrepreneurs and high-value professionals particularly in STEM fields.

Presumably, the urban core will remain successful if it is able to attract that latter group of people and the region as a whole can be a place in which immigrant entrepreneurs can build success.
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  #1559  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 12:31 AM
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Originally Posted by theSisko View Post
Since SLS is apartments and not condos, why would Toll Bros. scramble to get everything approved quickly so they can start construction before Dranoff? Two different projects. Don't get me wrong, if Toll wants to start construction that quick I'm not going to complain.
Two different Ave Arts developments. SLS is condos. Toll is rushing to get their condos on the market before Dranoffs SLS condos. Kidphilly labeled The Avenue of the Arts building (which is an already built building separate from the Dranoff SLS tower) condos. I corrected him and said they would be luxury apartments, not condos. The building is currently student housing and is being upgraded to luxury apartments.
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  #1560  
Old Posted Feb 25, 2014, 12:42 AM
Kidphilly Kidphilly is offline
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Originally Posted by summersm343 View Post
Two different Ave Arts developments. SLS is condos. Toll is rushing to get their condos on the market before Dranoffs SLS condos. Kidphilly labeled The Avenue of the Arts building (which is an already built building separate from the Dranoff SLS tower) condos. I corrected him and said they would be luxury apartments, not condos. The building is currently student housing and is being upgraded to luxury apartments.
Fair enough, but regardless there is a lot of higher end rental (my understanding via JLL is this will be pretty pricey) and condo proposals - not totally sure there is enough market to support it - still need more jobs IMHO and I am a pro Philly guy - just think the demand is not up to the number of proposals - just being a realists - some may not make it fuition
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