PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[sayitaintso]

Originally Posted by Pennsgrant

Septa Plans $650 M expansion to King of Prussia and Valley Forge

Plans to add 4-5 stops to the Norristown Line ending at Valley Forge.Will take 8 years to complete but interesting nonetheless.


http://www.bizjournals.com/philadelphia/news/2014/01/30/septa-releases-new-plans-for-expanded.html

This really pisses me off. The NE subway, BSL extension or any other mass transit expansion this city sorely needs far outweighs this soul sucking project to allow the on life support KOP office market to survive. Instead of encouraging those business to move to a mass transit friendly environment lets piss away over half a bil to subsidize some suburban landlords who are losing their shirts. Great use of transit money that will benefit the masses.

[josef]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

this really pisses me off. The ne subway, bsl extension or any other mass transit expansion this city sorely needs far outweighs this soul sucking project to allow the on life support kop office market to survive. Instead of encouraging those business to move to a mass transit friendly environment lets piss away over half a bil to subsidize some suburban landlords who are losing their shirts. Great use of transit money that will benefit the masses.

+1

[christof]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

This really pisses me off. The NE subway, BSL extension or any other mass transit expansion this city sorely needs far outweighs this soul sucking project to allow the on life support KOP office market to survive. Instead of encouraging those business to move to a mass transit friendly environment lets piss away over half a bil to subsidize some suburban landlords who are losing their shirts. Great use of transit money that will benefit the masses.

May I add that extending the Fox Chase Regional Line to its original terminal in Bucks County should be high on the list of projects done by SEPTA.

[MusicMan84]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

This really pisses me off. The NE subway, BSL extension or any other mass transit expansion this city sorely needs far outweighs this soul sucking project to allow the on life support KOP office market to survive. Instead of encouraging those business to move to a mass transit friendly environment lets piss away over half a bil to subsidize some suburban landlords who are losing their shirts. Great use of transit money that will benefit the masses.

You should really pay closer attention to the way this is actually being funded. Funds were already earmarked for this study - basically a use it or lose it situation. Then they want to apply for some federal funds. Not really pulling money away from other SEPTA ventures as much as you might think. Plus, I think this expansion makes a lot of sense.

With any luck the BSL to the Navy Yards will start to get some more momentum. Some of the other expansions will be many dollars and years out, in my estimation.

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by MusicMan84

You should really pay closer attention to the way this is actually being funded. Funds were already earmarked for this study - basically a use it or lose it situation. Then they want to apply for some federal funds. Not really pulling money away from other SEPTA ventures as much as you might think. Plus, I think this expansion makes a lot of sense.

With any luck the BSL to the Navy Yards will start to get some more momentum. Some of the other expansions will be many dollars and years out, in my estimation.

Nah, it's more important to ignore the facts and fire off about how the suburbs are "soul sucking". Because, you know, a place/attraction that reportedly draws 25 million people a year (source), who also spend money within the city limits at times I might add, is just not important....it would be better for all of those vehicles to continue to clog up 76.

Philadelphia's city limits are not where all of the jobs and attractions are and some city dwellers actually need to commute to the 'burbs for work, God forbid we make it easier for them to do so.

Originally Posted by Baconboy007

I thought we didn't care about development outside city limits? Just kidding, this is pretty cool. With the development that is going on in Conshy I wonder if Norristown will eventually turn around as well.

It's important to note some of the bigger transportation projects underway that are further interconnecting the area and the buzz about the Turnpike getting an exit/entrance right in the heart of Norristown as well. The kindling is definitely in place, we just need to really get the fire going.

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Londonee

This is where she's stretching it, the 1900 block of Chestnut street is woefully under-performing. There's something like 8-10 store-front vacancies, an empty lot, a rundown gap outlet. Really, the best thing that block has going for it, is Devil's Alley (they have a heart attack inducing buffalo chicken sandwich smothered in bleu cheese and bacon...that i allow myself to have once a year). She's making it sound like national retailers are beating down the doors, clamoring to open up on this stretch, and that's just patently false. The 1800 block (Boyds-the store) would logically be the next stretch to see some investment--but thus far I cant think of anything new that's going into that block either.

Joan Shepp is going in across the street from Boyd's. I agree that the 1900 block is worse for wear, though.

Also her comment about the land being too valuable for a single-story use is a bit odd--considering the dozens of single story buildings along chestnut street--most notably the large corner building (houses Vitamin Shoppe and Jimmy Johns) at a far more prime spot at 17th. And "single-story use" seems to be an understatement--they are keeping the facade in tact--then behind it, adding 8 cinemas and a restaurant/lounge space. This isn't the same thing as demo-ing an historic building, then throwing up a schlocky, 1 story lean-to with 760sf of retail space just to snatch some rent.

I think you're confusing plant with trajectory. The single-story buildings you're thinking of--what I'm referring to as (physical) plant--are existing structures that were built when Philadelphia (and Chestnut Street) were at a very different place than they are today. And by trajectory I mean the density of proposed projects (esp. relative to the plant).

The Buck, YWCA, Pearl right next door, and Brickstone projects all portend a significantly denser future for Chestnut (and I think we'll be seeing a replacement of underbuilt properties on the corridor). So yes, the Boyd proposal is jarring.

Would this project be better served with a 30 story apartment tower above it? Sure. But, then again, not many projects wouldn't be.

As I've said before, I would be ok if (a) the Boyd was removed for a significantly denser property (follows trajectory) or (b) if it was restored (preserves a plant worth preserving). The proposal on the table does neither, and my sense is that it falls far short.

[sayitaintso]

Originally Posted by EastSideHBG

God forbid we make it easier for them to do so.

.

Making it "easier" is the reason people don't use mass transit. Let's add another exit/lane. Lets add more parking... Making it "easier" sacrifices efficiency and density for convenience and sprawl.

And it is soul sucking when the majority of the of the ridership is outbound for the mall and jobs.

KOP is the epitome of the soul sucking suburban existence. I have no interest in encouraging it or the lifestyle it promotes.

[theWatusi]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

KOP is the epitome of the soul sucking suburban existence.

Obviously you have never been to Levittown.

[Plokoon11]

^ I'm from there. Its alright.

[Pennsgrant]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

This really pisses me off. The NE subway, BSL extension or any other mass transit expansion this city sorely needs far outweighs this soul sucking project to allow the on life support KOP office market to survive. Instead of encouraging those business to move to a mass transit friendly environment lets piss away over half a bil to subsidize some suburban landlords who are losing their shirts. Great use of transit money that will benefit the masses.

1.The funding for the Mass Transit expansion is coming on the backs of automobile drivers which are aplenty in King of Prussia and the suburbs. The goal is to ease auto congestion around KOP.

2. KOP on life support?

The 202 corridor from West Chester to Plymouth Meeting (KOP-Malvern-West Chester-Conshy-Norristown-Plymouth Meeting) has 40 M sqft of office space that's the same amount as Center City and University City combined.

You are barking up the wrong tree.

[GarCastle]

Originally Posted by Pennsgrant

1.The funding for the Mass Transit expansion is coming on the backs of automobile drivers which are aplenty in King of Prussia and the suburbs. The goal is to ease auto congestion around KOP.

2. KOP on life support?
The 202 corridor from West Chester to Plymouth Meeting (KOP-Malvern-West Chester-Conshy-Norristown-Plymouth Meeting) has 40 M sqft of office space that's the same amount as Center City and University City combined.
You are barking up the wrong tree.

Agreed. I doubt SEPTA gives a rodent's arse about KOP shopping though obviously that will help ridership on that line. Route 422 and anything near is has been getting more congested every year and offering commuters options in and out of the city could make a real difference in that traffic. You can't add any lanes to 76 without paving over the river so even if 422 had 12 lanes each way and 202 10 lanes each way, 76 would still have what it has now. And if you live off 202 or 422 and work near the other, you probably by now know better ways to get there than those two traffic jams anyway so it's really about the 76 congestion and Philly's inability to impact a federal interstate even if it wanted to.

Cheers,
G.

[iamrobk]

Originally Posted by GarCastle

Agreed. I doubt SEPTA gives a rodent's arse about KOP shopping though obviously that will help ridership on that line. Route 422 and anything near is has been getting more congested every year and offering commuters options in and out of the city could make a real difference in that traffic. You can't add any lanes to 76 without paving over the river so even if 422 had 12 lanes each way and 202 10 lanes each way, 76 would still have what it has now. And if you live off 202 or 422 and work near the other, you probably by now know better ways to get there than those two traffic jams anyway so it's really about the 76 congestion and Philly's inability to impact a federal interstate even if it wanted to.

Cheers,
G.

I've heard proposals to double-deck it. Sucks that it would cost a ridiculous amount, because they really should.

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Pennsgrant

1.The funding for the Mass Transit expansion is coming on the backs of automobile drivers which are aplenty in King of Prussia and the suburbs. The goal is to ease auto congestion around KOP.

2. KOP on life support?

The 202 corridor from West Chester to Plymouth Meeting (KOP-Malvern-West Chester-Conshy-Norristown-Plymouth Meeting) has 40 M sqft of office space that's the same amount as Center City and University City combined.

You are barking up the wrong tree.

I'm pretty sure Center City itself has more than 50 mill sqft of office space, UCity not included

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by Outta here

Pardon the intrusion . I was told ( by a friend ) that there is an institution somewhere on
Arch street that has a scale model of center city . Is this a fact . If so , where is it and is
the said model kept up to date ( as much as possible ) . Thanks for letting me post .

There is scale model in the lower lobby of the convention center - at like 1th or 12th and arch - free to the public when the facility is open

[Kidphilly]

Originally Posted by sayitaintso

This really pisses me off. The NE subway, BSL extension or any other mass transit expansion this city sorely needs far outweighs this soul sucking project to allow the on life support KOP office market to survive. Instead of encouraging those business to move to a mass transit friendly environment lets piss away over half a bil to subsidize some suburban landlords who are losing their shirts. Great use of transit money that will benefit the masses.

Both can prosper together - I think this is a long needed route - just which would have been a one seat ride to CC.

KOP is doing well and not on life support - City Line is bad and this could benefit the whole region

I think we cant be myopic to CC at the behest of the region A stronger region is better for CC and vice versa

[hammersklavier]

Originally Posted by Pennsgrant

The 202 corridor from West Chester to Plymouth Meeting (KOP-Malvern-West Chester-Conshy-Norristown-Plymouth Meeting) has 40 M sqft of office space that's the same amount as Center City and University City combined.

1. At what occupancy?

2. And at change in occupancy relative to other major office markets in the region?*

...The more important questions.
______________________
*For those who know maths: Assume k is KoP, p is Philadelphia, w is Wilmington, c Cherry Hill, etc. Then what are (a) Δk, and (b) {Δk/Δp, Δk/Δw, Δk/Δc, ..., Δk/Δn} ? If Δk/Δn < 1, then the KoP office market is shrinking relative to competition in time Δ; if Δk/Δn > 1, it is growing. It obviously follows from here that lim(Δn→0)Δk/Δn = dk/dn, a measurement of the marginal change in KoP's market strength relative to market n.

[Outta here]

Is there a plan to dredge the Delaware up past the Betsey Ross ?? Just a rumor I heard .

[EastSideHBG]

Originally Posted by Kidphilly

Both can prosper together - I think this is a long needed route - just which would have been a one seat ride to CC.

KOP is doing well and not on life support - City Line is bad and this could benefit the whole region

I think we cant be myopic to CC at the behest of the region A stronger region is better for CC and vice versa

Exactly, it doesn't need to be (and shouldn't be) an either/or situation and we all benefit when the region as a whole does well vs. just pockets of it here and there.

[Philly-Drew]

I think extending a rail to KOP makes a lot of sense and I'm glad to see it getting some attention. I also agree that extending the BSL to the Navy Yard, and extending the MFL into NE Philly also makes great sense.

I'm glad to see at least one of these projects getting done.

[Jelly Roll]

Originally Posted by hammersklavier

1. At what occupancy?

2. And at change in occupancy relative to other major office markets in the region?*

...The more important questions.
______________________
*For those who know maths: Assume k is KoP, p is Philadelphia, w is Wilmington, c Cherry Hill, etc. Then what are (a) Δk, and (b) {Δk/Δp, Δk/Δw, Δk/Δc, ..., Δk/Δn} ? If Δk/Δn < 1, then the KoP office market is shrinking relative to competition in time Δ; if Δk/Δn > 1, it is growing. It obviously follows from here that lim(Δn→0)Δk/Δn = dk/dn, a measurement of the marginal change in KoP's market strength relative to market n.

Mount Laurel/ Moorsetown is the bigger market then Cherry Hill in South Jersey and has lower vacancy and higher rents then Cherry Hill. I would not be surprised if the PA suburbs gained because South Jersey has shrunk and Philadelphia has not materially changed yet.