YEG - Edmonton Int Airport

[Cage]

Originally Posted by tuffyy

Air Canada Rouge schedules set to be released in the next few days.

Go figure.

YYC and YVR routes to be taken over (Mexico etc), YEG... Nothing even though YEG-CUN was on the list, it's gone now.

Fully committed to it's YYC hub? Yup they sure are.

Apart form new 763 flying, AC Rouge 319 services are hand-me-down from mainline mother corp. Plus the new schedule is only for Summer 2014 when YEG-Sun Destination traffic is at a low, even for the incumbent airlines WS and Sunwing.

While I see you point, lets have some perspective. Its not like AC dropping service at YEG, but they are not expanding service.

Until new narrowbody equipment becomes available it will be status quo at AC. However new equipment is on its way in the short term. More will be revealed once the Air Georgian AC Express operations get going. Additionally AC will probably decide and announce what they are going to do with Embraers at Mainline. I suspect that AC will announce new Airbus narrowbody as short term lift until 737 arrive, this will upguage 20 E90 aircraft. AC should also decide by the summer time what the evolution is for 25 remaining E90s that Boeing is not taking.

[thegx]

YEG-LAS would be a fine Rouge market any time of year. However, AC clearly has no interest in YEG.

[EdmTrekker]

AC feels slighted and apparently the BOARD of AC is siding with management. Who are these individuals...lets pt a microscope under them and their private business interests...and take it from there...

[EdmTrekker]

AC feels slighted and apparently the BOARD of AC is siding with management. Who are these individuals...lets put a microscope under them and their private business interests...and take it from there...there is but 1 from Western Canada and at that Mr. Romanov appears questionable s a former leader in is own Province. His lack of interest in routes to the Alberta Capital speaks volumes about his grasp of economics in Western Canada.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media/board/index.html

[dansk]

Originally Posted by EdmTrekker

AC feels slighted and apparently the BOARD of AC is siding with management. Who are these individuals...lets put a microscope under them and their private business interests...and take it from there...there is but 1 from Western Canada and at that Mr. Romanov appears questionable s a former leader in is own Province. His lack of interest in routes to the Alberta Capital speaks volumes about his grasp of economics in Western Canada.

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media/board/index.html

They've made their business strategy clear. Edmontians have spoken and we have tried with AC. Time for a new approach. Increase competion from non Star Alliance players.

[Airboy]

Had dinner with someone from Porter last night in TO. We were talking about BB expansion and "IF" it will be going ahead. IF it does look at a fast expansion across Canada. He said it is a very strong possibility that YEG would become the western hub. Reasoning that they do not want to enter YYC because the westjet connection. And Vancouver is to far west to be hub. The three cities are the service area but the direct flights to TO would be the big one. They also want to take some of the YMM business. They see AC and Westjet Numbers and also know YEG is underserved. When he knows more He will pass it on.

[Coldrsx]

Very good news and strategy... although I find it hard to believe they would not want to eat into WJ by going head to head in YYC.

[MalcolmTucker]

And pick up some big mid-market business traffic that is marketed as economy so it works with everyone's expense policies.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by thegx

YEG-LAS would be a fine Rouge market any time of year. However, AC clearly has no interest in YEG.

LAS markets work great when the CAD to USD is at par or at least above .90. An .80 exchange rate busts the market, especially if the USD rises among all other Americas currencies. For example if the USD rises against the CAD and Peso, then resorts in CUN start to look a lot better comparison to US destinations like LAS.

The other problem for sun destination markets for the Canadian tour operators is that a rising USD makes the Caribbean and Mexican destinations much more affordable to Americans, so the Hotel and all inclusive providers do not need to discount to Canadian and can even afford a price increase without depressing demand.

Also LAS works so well for WS because they get huge commissions from the Casinos on the hotel booking option. The hotel commission adds to overall corporate profit. This market AC rouge is trying to break into but it will take a few years to fully set up. AC Vacations merged into the new rouge division last year.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Coldrsx

Very good news and strategy... although I find it hard to believe they would not want to eat into WJ by going head to head in YYC.

In the aviation marketplace where there are three or more players on the route the following is true:
1. Biggest player makes a good profit.
2. Second player breaks even in the long run. (Some periods are better than others but it washes out in the long period).
3. Third player loses buckets of money.

Porter network strategy has been to be the big player out of YTZ, on markets where they are 2 or 3; that's where they lose money.

[dansk]

Side note. National Car is introducing a Emerald Isle to YEG. Great upgrade.

[Airboy]

With the discontent in YEG about AC it may be a great strategy for Porter.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by dansk

They've made their business strategy clear. Edmontians have spoken and we have tried with AC. Time for a new approach. Increase competion from non Star Alliance players.

Show AC the door approach would not work out too well for Edmonton. While Edmontonians prefer WS or airlines other than Star Alliance airlines, the EIZZ and EEDC need to consider the preferences of inbound travelers. In this instance the City Edmonton needs AC just to get Torontonians to the city. Same goes for UA and Americans. It is the inbound traveler perspective that's important consideration.

[EdmTrekker]

Cage,

The UofA has already expressed concern directly to AC about the lack of service and impact with the loss of the AC flight to LHR - albeit placed in the "penalty box" for a few months. That was public knowledge as were letters to AC from EEDC and the Edmonton Chamber of Commerce. It would be asinine to think that the "greater" Edmonton community will warm up to AC any time soon. It is AC that will need to come back and win the hearts and dollars of the public and business community...and this can only be done with more non-stop flights, improved frequencies, and a greater presence in Edmonton. The longer AC waits - the more difficult the task will be for them. And as a former million mile flier on AC - I am not losing any sleep in using American, Delta, Alaska, United metal and WJ for my continental flights. Flights to continental Europe will now be via KEF on Icelandair regardless of the AC YEG-LHR flight, however I will consider AC to LHR if London is my sole UK destination. And me is many people .

[YegFan]

Originally Posted by Cage

Show AC the door approach would not work out too well for Edmonton. While Edmontonians prefer WS or airlines other than Star Alliance airlines, the EIZZ and EEDC need to consider the preferences of inbound travelers. In this instance the City Edmonton needs AC just to get Torontonians to the city. Same goes for UA and Americans. It is the inbound traveler perspective that's important consideration.

Cage, your comments are always the same and they never seem to change - mostly criticizing Edmonton and YEG. Seriously, the sky will not fall if AC leaves the YEG market or if it continues to decrease service levels.

So, their sole existence in the YEG market is to cater to those coming to Edmonton and not to the citizens of the Edmonton region. I hope everyone takes note of that and direct their dollars towards carriers that choose to serve the community here.

[dansk]

My comments were not to say that we show AC the door. I actually like AC service, and I fly a lot. However, their service from Edmonton is lacking and needs competition. Unlike writing pointless letters from me the citizen which AC will not listen to I fly other carriers unless it is a non-stop flight.

I am merely suggesting that if a carrier comes into our market we support it because it represents competition. Edmonton finally will have OneWorld here in Edmonton, and that will help and will grow from what I see.


2014 will be a unique yeaer for Edmonton and EIA to say the least. Our team at EIA is in for an interesting year of marketing and growth. They are doing a good job. I hope they are starting to get recognition for there efforts outside of AA and FI. If YEG doesn't have a few new International Scheduled routes in a 5 year term, I personally think it is time to relook at the management structure of EIA. Not saying that we have a bad team in place at all! Just look at the options of maybe bring in some muscle.

[tuffyy]

Although it is unfortunate and has been frustrating for Edmonton for years. It is unfortunate but the reality of living in a country with just two dominant carriers who rather than flying routes that work have chosen to follow the hub system as most airlines do.

YEG has demonstrated it does have traffic and demand to various points and just because AC or WS doesn't serve a said route does not represent that the route won't work, it represents that the route will not work or pull from the hub's from the said airline (who may already be struggling to keep a certain route profitable) and goes against the business strategy of those airlines.

As a simple example you may have 50 passengers a day from YYC travelling to San Diego and 50 a day from YEG. Flying a 73G from both cities to the destination would make the route un-profitable, funnelling into a hub you now have a point to point flight and a profitable route.

YEG has made many gains that many never expected to see happen. Growing population and increased disposable incomes are what make YEG grow and increase demand. Maybe AC or WS notices but is hesitant to move away from the Hub system but airlines with no Hub commitments notice and you end up with a route.

This summer see's a few more year round sun routes added from YEG (Shared with YYC) with MBJ and VRA by Sunwing remaining this summer along with CUN and PVR. And although WS has been adding more Encore service it is also adding more seat capacity by doing so with the increased schedules.

FI and AA should also boost overall numbers for 2014/15.

[LO 044]

It is fine to say AC sucks or they will never have my business but the fact is many people still choose to fly with AC. Look at the routes at which AC and WS compete at meaning YYC, YVR, YYZ, YUL. Has WS cornered the YEG market to those cities? Not really. Why? Because AC's service is good, their prices are good and options for connections are good. If this is not true then AC's planes should be empty flying out of YEG. Yes AC gets slaughtered on US Sun and International Sun destinations but so what. AC and WS's structure is not similar but Rouge and WS's structure is so let's see how that game plays out.

Look at someone flying to Europe. This example is before Icelandair of course but you either flew with AC to LHR and connected on or you flew via YYC, YYZ or YUL. So let's say you used "the Calgary Habit". You fly AC and connect to AC or you fly WS and connect to BA or KL. I for one could only find competitive fares on KLM but the majority of the time AC killed both KL and especially BA. People bitch about AC not giving us international flights but you're willing to support WS (who can lease aircraft to fly overseas, they can certainly do it to fly to Hawaii), BA (who isn't willing to enter the YEG market) and KL (who isn't willing to enter the YEG market and proudly displays connect via YYC at WEM). Yes these other companies are all saints and are worth supporting.

I have tried to connect via ORD, MSP and EWR but the only competitive pricing comes from EWR. EWR however loses the total flight time advantage which kills it for me with kids. Many others would choose an overall shorter flight time as well. Still connecting through EWR or ORD means you are supporting UA which means you are supporting AC so that won't work either i guess.

It will be interesting how the Europe game turns out with FI entering the market. If AC cancels YEG-LHR people will clap and say see AC sucks and can't compete. The fact is is that no one can say that BA, KL or WS could compete with FI either at YEG specifically.

[dansk]

The only way to continue to grow is increased competition with our market. It seems to slowly be happening.

Anyone go to the Flyertalk meeting with EIA?

[tuffyy]

Originally Posted by LO 044

It is fine to say AC sucks or they will never have my business but the fact is many people still choose to fly with AC. Look at the routes at which AC and WS compete at meaning YYC, YVR, YYZ, YUL. Has WS cornered the YEG market to those cities? Not really. Why? Because AC's service is good, their prices are good and options for connections are good. If this is not true then AC's planes should be empty flying out of YEG. Yes AC gets slaughtered on US Sun and International Sun destinations but so what. AC and WS's structure is not similar but Rouge and WS's structure is so let's see how that game plays out.

Look at someone flying to Europe. This example is before Icelandair of course but you either flew with AC to LHR and connected on or you flew via YYC, YYZ or YUL. So let's say you used "the Calgary Habit". You fly AC and connect to AC or you fly WS and connect to BA or KL. I for one could only find competitive fares on KLM but the majority of the time AC killed both KL and especially BA. People bitch about AC not giving us international flights but you're willing to support WS (who can lease aircraft to fly overseas, they can certainly do it to fly to Hawaii), BA (who isn't willing to enter the YEG market) and KL (who isn't willing to enter the YEG market and proudly displays connect via YYC at WEM). Yes these other companies are all saints and are worth supporting.

I have tried to connect via ORD, MSP and EWR but the only competitive pricing comes from EWR. EWR however loses the total flight time advantage which kills it for me with kids. Many others would choose an overall shorter flight time as well. Still connecting through EWR or ORD means you are supporting UA which means you are supporting AC so that won't work either i guess.

It will be interesting how the Europe game turns out with FI entering the market. If AC cancels YEG-LHR people will clap and say see AC sucks and can't compete. The fact is is that no one can say that BA, KL or WS could compete with FI either at YEG specifically.

But this is where the mistake comes in.

AC (If they were to cancel LHR) doesn't mean YEG-Europe is that small of a market. It my be the shoe in to Concentrate on its hub and free up metal. As we see AC is using Rouge to take over many European markets out of YYZ and YUL (Lisbon, Barcelona, Edinburgh, Dublin) come to mind. So I wouldn't be surprised to see AC move to Rouge on YEG-LHR simply to make itself more competitive fare wise with FI.

As mentioned by Edmonton Economic development a few Euro carriers have taken a interest in YEG and are ''examining'' the market.

I suspect the flights to KEF (with onward connections) will be popular as they have proven to be in other markets (DEN,YYZ,YHZ,MSP) etc. But it may also be the nail in YEG-LHR route by AC (rather doubtful) but possibly.

As FI stated, it moved up the start date a bit earlier due to popular demand. So that should speak volumes to Yeggers.

If the route was to be dropped I suspect BA would easily take over the route with a 787.

I hate to be one to join in on picking on AC but I can understand the bad taste it left in a lot of peoples mouths after the ''FI coming to YEG" tantrum of sorts. Did AC expect to have a monopoly on YEG-Europe? Sorta looks like it...