Highway 174

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

I think widdening the 174 has been pragmatically pushed back till after the metro -I'm trying to shift the wording away from LRT since the City is building a high volume light metro using LRT tech, but it's not catching on lol- is extended to Orleans. During the keynote announcement Watson mentioned the removal of bus lanes from the 174 would ease congestion without any mention of actual widening.

So the City are probably gonna wait till 2022 to widen 174. But this might become an election issue both municipally and provincial. Especially if the PCs make it a promise.
Edit- And there's some merit to that since the road arguably serves a more regional/provincial purpose.

Agreed. That's why I refer it as the ORT or metro; LRT makes us sound small and insignificant, like we can't afford or support heavy rail.

If the 174 is to be widened, Rockland should step up since Ottawa would be largely un-effected by the extra lanes. If anything it would only hurt Ottawa by attracting new residents to Rockland and beyond.

[eemy]

Once upon a time municipalities like Clarence-Rockland or Carleton Place would be annexed by the City of Ottawa. I wonder why that no longer occurs.

[S-Man]

Was flipping bands on the car radio today and came across that same interview with former Citizen dude Denley. I made a point of listening this time, for the sake of this forum.

On 2 occasions he brought up LRT expansion, first stating "It's not just Toronto...We need to expand transit in Ottawa" (before going into the funding model that I'm not going to attempt to describe now, given my memory).

Another time he said "Lrt will be a great thing for people in Ottawa west" (Campaign mode!), before topics turned away from transit. An aside: if Chiarelli is bland, boring and mildly creepy in person, this guy is his equal in that regard.

Just thought I'd update my earlier, vague post.

Curious if anyone has heard anything from the NDP about the transit/Ottawa situation. I haven't even heard a response from them except to oppose new gas taxes in the wake of the Libs' announcement last week.

[c_speed3108]

Originally Posted by hwy418

If the City is planning to just reallocate the shoulder bus lanes on OR174 to general purpose lanes, then I definitely want the MTO to take the highway back.

The bus lanes are not setup properly for general traffic and lanes would not be balanced though the interchanges. In addition there is no proper shoulder beyond the current bus lanes (2.5m to 3.0m fully paved) because the current bus lanes are the shoulders!

A widening will be required even if the City plans use the bus lane for general traffic if/when the Orleans LRT will be in place.

The bus lanes were during the MTO era I recall correctly and I don't think the shoulders were any better before they were built. Really most roads around here have crappy shoulders.

I imagine if and when the lanes are converted to general traffic it will include a re-frig around the interchanges so the lane carries through. The only interchange this would be a problem at (space wise) is Montreal Rd, but I am sure by the time this would occur that bridge will be due for replacement and could easily be widen at that point the same way did in the west end.

[Richard Eade]

There is no point in widening the west-bound OR174 to three lanes if most of the traffic is headed past St. Laurent; the new Cyrville Bridge has limited through traffic to two west-bound lanes from the 417 and two west-bound lanes from the OR174. If the west-bound OR174 were widened, the traffic would still need to merge into two lanes to pass under the bridge at this designed bottle-neck. [Yes it was designed this way because the 417 west of ‘The Split’ will have only four main lanes; thus it would be senseless to try to feed five lanes into four.] The only benefit of widening the west-bound OR174 is that people exiting to St. Laurent will have their nice long off-ramp from the third OR174 lane.

This will be the case for the next 75+ years.

[rocketphish]

Prescott-Russell politicians fume as Hwy. 174 widening falls off Ottawa’s to-do list

By David Reevely, OTTAWA CITIZEN January 9, 2014

OTTAWA — Ottawa’s indifference to widening Hwy. 174 is frustrating the mayors whose municipalities east of the city depend on easy passage in and out of the city.

“We feel as if we’re being left out,” said Jean Paul St. Pierre, the mayor of Russell township and warden of the United Counties of Prescott and Russell. “I guess we wonder what’s happening in the west of the city, when you see a four-lane highway going west of the city to Carleton Place, north of the city, when you see a four-lane highway to Arnprior, and we’re making do with a two-lane rural road that’s not even in great shape.”

Inside Ottawa’s boundaries, what’s officially known as Ottawa Road 174 belongs to the city; Prescott-Russell owns the road east of the city limits, where it becomes County Road 17 and roughly follows the Ottawa River to the Quebec border. Like the roads to Carleton Place and Arnprior, it used to be a provincial highway meant for inter-city traffic. Until the late 1990s, when the province forcibly “downloaded” it on to the local governments. Now it’s their problem. And Ottawa isn’t inclined to pay the big money to widen its piece.

There’s no formal estimate of the cost yet, but it’s certainly in the hundreds of millions. Widening Hwy. 417 between Nicholas Street and the Split, where the 174 begins, is costing $226 million.

Neither is Prescott-Russell prepared to pay for its part, St. Pierre admitted. The county just doesn’t have that kind of money. But at least it’s actively interested in begging for some from the provincial and federal governments. Ottawa, in a new long-term transportation plan that’s supposed to forecast major projects as far as 2031, has widening the 174 as a desirable thing but doesn’t include it in the $1-billion list of road jobs it intends to carry out.

The mayors of Prescott-Russell vented their irritation in a county council meeting this week.

“There was definitely a strong feeling, a lot of frustration around the table,” St. Pierre said. “A lot of frustration and anxiety and not enough information coming in from the City of Ottawa as to what the plans are moving forward with the widening of highway 17-174.”

For rural Eastern Ontario businesses, the road is an economic necessity, he said.

The road is often congested, and sharing the long two-lane portion with heavy trucks is harrowing. “You really have to be careful of what’s happening. Which you should be anyway, but you really have to be prudent about what’s going on,” St. Pierre said. If nothing is done to widen it, then eventually “there will be massive traffic jams, for sure.”

Ottawa has done at least a bit of work toward a widening. The long-term transportation plan includes extending light rail from Blair Road to Place d’Orléans, which would probably free up a dedicated bus lane on the 174 for regular car and truck traffic. But that lane only goes halfway through Orléans and doesn’t extend through rural Cumberland to Prescott-Russell.

The city is also participating in an environmental assessment, a basic planning stage that should lead to a more detailed plan (one big question is whether to shift the road well away from the river, to run south of rural Cumberland village). That assessment would expire well before 2031 if the city didn’t act on it and would have to be redone. But Ryan Kennery, a spokesman for Mayor Jim Watson, said its findings are key.

“Once cost has been established, the City can work with its provincial and federal partners to see whether or not the widening is feasible,” he said by email. “We will be discussing timelines with our partners in the course of the coming weeks.”

In other words, the central problem is whether the federal and provincial governments are willing to pay for it, because the city isn’t. The province is covering the environmental assessment. It hasn’t otherwise been eager to help with the 174, rejecting requests from both Ottawa and Prescott-Russell to take it back and refusing a proposal from the city to put toll gates at the border with Prescott-Russell to collect maintenance money from the non-Ottawans who use it.

St. Pierre said he’s trying to stay optimistic. “I’m hoping we can get together,” he said.

[email protected]

ottawacitizen.com/greaterottawa
© Copyright (c) The Ottawa Citizen

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Presco...ing+falls+Ottawa+list/9369151/story.html

[eemy]

Complain to the provincial government. This is one of many roads that should have never been downloaded. Ostensibly the provincial government downloaded roads that were primarily used for people to travel locally, this is clearly not the case with 174, and you have to wonder why highways such as 403, 410 and 404, which come much closer to meeting the criteria, were never downloaded.

[hwy418]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

Complain to the provincial government. This is one of many roads that should have never been downloaded. Ostensibly the provincial government downloaded roads that were primarily used for people to travel locally, this is clearly not the case with 174, and you have to wonder why highways such as 403, 410 and 404, which come much closer to meeting the criteria, were never downloaded.

Agreed! However, those are 400-series highways unlike our OR174 (aka Highway 17) - they have a special place in MTO's heart and would never be given up.

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by jeremy_haak

Complain to the provincial government. This is one of many roads that should have never been downloaded. Ostensibly the provincial government downloaded roads that were primarily used for people to travel locally, this is clearly not the case with 174, and you have to wonder why highways such as 403, 410 and 404, which come much closer to meeting the criteria, were never downloaded.

If that's the logic, the government failed horribly right here in Eastern Ontario. Aside from the 174 Highways 43 & 31 were downloaded despite being intercounty routes, while the 138 & 34 were retained despite being local routes only serving one county.

Perhaps MTO could strike a deal--they'll take control of the 174/17 west of Landry Rd (the easterly limit of Rockland's urban area, and the end point of all widening proposals), and in exchange Prescott-Russell has to take the 34.

[Innsertnamehere]

The one smart thing that Hudak wants to do is upload some highways, even though he voted for the downloading originally.. (Sigh) DVP, Gardiner, Lincoln Alexander, 174, and even the airport parkway in Ottawa IIRC.

403 also plays a role in getting traffic from the 401 down to the rural portion of the 403 through woodstock as well as to the QEW. 403 absolutely isn't a local highway. 410 similarly acts as a connection for highway 10 to the 401... 404, maybe, but there have been plans to turn it into a more regional highway for years and years and to have it run up to Beaverton as a highway 48 bypass. (its currently getting extended to Keswick)

MTO did give up 2 portions of 400 series highways as well. The 420 was downloaded to Niagara, despite it being a border crossing connecting highway, and the QEW east of the 427 was downloaded to Toronto. (Technically a 400 series highway, referred to as highway 451 in internal documents)

[eemy]

I meant more the section of 403 connecting the QEW and 401.

[S-Man]

But, but, but - maybe when Wynne's province-wide gas tax proceeds accumulates enough, they'll upload it. You know, once the needs of Every. Single. Torontonian. are taken care of first.

We won't know what the dollar number is, but they will. And they'll let us know when we reach it!

Any year now....just wait for it!

[Innsertnamehere]

Originally Posted by S-Man

But, but, but - maybe when Wynne's province-wide gas tax proceeds accumulates enough, they'll upload it. You know, once the needs of Every. Single. Torontonian. are taken care of first.

We won't know what the dollar number is, but they will. And they'll let us know when we reach it!

Any year now....just wait for it!

i don't think you understand what the liberals want to do with the taxes, they haven't even decided if it will be province wide yet, and have said multiple times that the money collected outside of Toronto, if it is even collected, will not go to Toronto.

[gjhall]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

i don't think you understand what the liberals want to do with the taxes, they haven't even decided if it will be province wide yet, and have said multiple times that the money collected outside of Toronto, if it is even collected, will not go to Toronto.

Facts! Shame on you!

[1overcosc]

Originally Posted by Innsertnamehere

i don't think you understand what the liberals want to do with the taxes, they haven't even decided if it will be province wide yet, and have said multiple times that the money collected outside of Toronto, if it is even collected, will not go to Toronto.

The latest report is that the prov govt has narrowed it down to 2 options:
-Gas tax increased from $0.143 per litre to $0.243 per litre, CIT from 11.5% to 12%
-Gas tax increased from $0.143 per litre to $0.193 per litre, CIT from 11.5% to 12%, HST from 13% to 13.5%

Both options raise just over $3 billion per year, which would be distributed to municipalities based on their share of the provincial GDP. Ottawa would get something like $300 million a year under that arrangement. Enough to pay for the entire Stage 2 even if federal government gives us nothing (which is highly unlikely).

Here's a copy of it: http://transitpanel.ca/uploads/Final%20paper/TISAP%20Report%20Dec10_Report%20Full%20x.pdf

[Buggys]

I thought the Ontario government already decided to go with green bonds to fund transportation improvements.

http://news.ontario.ca/opo/en/2013/10/province-proposes-new-way-to-fund-infrastructure.html

[Innsertnamehere]

That is part of the solution, green bonds will help finance debt but won't allow for actual money. Its a cheaper way to take on debt.

[1overcosc]

yep, the green bonds and the transit taxes work hand in hand. The green bonds allow the province to borrow transit money at lower rates, and the transit taxes provide the money needed to make the payments on these bonds. The alternative, simply using transit taxes to accumulate money and then spend that money as it is made available, would obviously be cheapest, but that would take too long. The Golden Report recommends using borrowing to pay for the most urgently needed projects, and then using the accumulation approach for more long-term projects.

[Buggys]

Ah. Thanks for the explanation.

I hope green bonds can also be earmarked for the city/rural region they're bought for. Or at least divided up fairly. Perhaps regions with a comprehensive affordable plan should get first dibs : - P.

[S-Man]

Much like anything coming out of Metrolinx these days, I'm sure everything accomplished on the transit file from here on out will be a glorious success. I have full faith in my money being used responsibly, and only for the most sensible and fair purposes.

Maybe if the Party wants people to trust them with their money, they can be a little clear with their plans.

Oh, they haven't said this and that yet? Why not? Why not be clear from the get-go? Why not roll out a fleshed-out plan that can be scrutinized by voters, as opposed to rolling our clarifications of the elements of a plan as they come up with it? Are there not thousands of well-paid people in the government to accomplish this? Or is this making it up as they go along.

That said, I wasn't born into a voting dynasty, and my vote is actually malleable. Screw me over enough, and it will change.