Highway 174

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by Ottawa superman

Can't see Prescott-Russell accepting that. You just took their most populated city.



What does mean? Queens Park and Ottawa certainly aren't paying for Gardiner and Don Valley.

The province's policy is to pay 2/3 if the transit line crosses a municipal boundary. Of course, that never happens in Ottawa because the province amalgamated 10 municipalities in 2001, therefore we are always stuck paying a minimum of 1/3.

[Ottawa superman]

Originally Posted by J.OT13

The province's policy is to pay 2/3 if the transit line crosses a municipal boundary. Of course, that never happens in Ottawa because the province amalgamated 10 municipalities in 2001, therefore we are always stuck paying a minimum of 1/3.

The problem is the province ordered the TTC to start losing money in subsidizing money loosing bus service in North York, Etobicoke, and Scarborough. If the province wants out of transit funding, allow TTC make a profit, and return to fare zone. I think Ottawa should have fare zone too.

Regardless, the province certainly isn't paying two thirds of the Subway to Vaughan. Nor will it be paying two thirds for a Subway to Richmond Hill.

[McC]

true story:

Toronto-York Spadina Subway Extension

Estimated Project Cost:
The estimated cost of this project is $2.6 billion.

Project Funding:
The Toronto - York Spadina Subway Extension project is jointly funded by the Government of Canada, the Province of Ontario, the City of Toronto and The Regional Municipality of York.

The Government of Canada has committed $697 million, of which $75 million has already been provided.
The Province of Ontario has provided $870 million, which has been deposited into the Move Ontario Trust.
The City of Toronto and The Regional Municipality of York have committed to fund one-third of total project costs. Toronto will contribute $526 million and York Region will contribute $352 million.

http://www.ttc.ca/Spadina/About_the_Project/Overview.jsp

NB: those funding commitments come up $155M short of the estimated project cost. Hypothetically, if ON picked up the entire balance, the provincial contribution would be just shy of 40% of total estimated project costs.

[J.OT13]

So 878 million funded by municipalities for a 2.6 billion dollar for an 8.6 km subway to a suburban area.

Ottawa has to pay 1 billion for a 2.2 billion dollar, 12.5 km rapid transit line through downtown.

Problem somewhere?

[1overcosc]

Looks like the new TMP calls for the following 174 widenings:
-From 4 to 6 lanes - 417 to Jeanne D'Arc (already in TMP from 2008)
-From 4 to 6 lanes - Jeanne D'Arc to Trim (new in this TMP)
-From 2 to 4 lanes - Trim to city limit (new in this TMP)

EDIT: It appears that none of these projects are actually getting done. The city's restricting itself to $725 million in new road spending and so only some of the projects are actually going forward between now and 2031. The 417-Jeanne D'Arc & Jeanne D'Arc-Trim widenings are just below the cutoff--they would get done if the city's budget was $870 million or more.

The Trim-Canaan widening, costed at $77 million, is near the dead bottom of the list. $1.8 billion of road money would have to spent to get to that one.

http://ottawa.ca/sites/ottawa.ca/files/ttr_road_infrastructure.pdf

[waterloowarrior]

Province won’t allow city to charge tolls for 174, minister says

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Province+allow+city+charge+tolls+minister+says/9068882/story.html
BY DAVID REEVELY, OTTAWA CITIZEN OCTOBER 22, 2013 9:01 PM


OTTAWA — The city government won’t be allowed to put toll gates at the east end of Hwy. 174, says provincial Transportation Minister Glen Murray.

The city had asked the province for the authority to impose fees on drivers entering and possibly leaving the city on the road, which the city owns and maintains because the provincial government forcibly downloaded it on Ottawa in the late 1990s. It’s a former provincial road, with few access points and high speeds, built to the standards of inter-city freeways; a significant proportion of its users are from Clarence-Rockland and beyond, meaning they don’t pay for the road through property taxes the way Ottawans do.

Giving it back to the province has always been the city’s preference, but Cumberland Coun. Stephen Blais argued last spring that if it can’t, it should at least charge non-Ottawans who use it. Toll gates at Canaan Road would bring in about $6.5 million a year, he estimated. But because cities don’t have the authority under provincial regulations to put tolls on roads, Ottawa had to ask permission.

Forget it, Murray wrote the city in a letter. “[W]e are not contemplating upload/downloads or a regulation to enable road tolling at this time.”

The letter doesn’t explain the reasoning. (Indeed, toll roads are one of the ideas raised to pay for major transit and road improvements in and around Toronto, including by provincial transit agency Metrolinx.) Murray spends most of his letter talking about the province’s infrastructure programs and other ways it has uploaded costs to the province from Ontario municipalities.

[S-Man]

Completely aside from the pros and cons of this idea - Murray is a capricious blowhard.

It seems his job is to ignore established plans/ideas and substitute his own back-of-napkin ideas (see Scarborough for a lovely example). I find him vindictive and childish.

[c_speed3108]

Ontario Tories pledge to take back the 174.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/Ontario+Tories+pledge+take+back/9307790/story.html

[hwy418]

I too am curious about this. Seems the 174 widening has disappearred from the City of Ottawa's short-term plans - not on Transportation Master Plan Affordable Network Map: http://ottawa.ca/sites/default/files/tmpmap10_affordable_road_network.pdf.

I am on the mailing list for the EA, but I have not heard anything in over a year.

I would like to see MTO take the highway back. Speaking from experience, the City of Ottawa does not have the experience or the knowledge to take-on large freeway expansion projects. The 417 Expansion from Nicholas to the Split is an MTO project being built by the City's Light Rail consortium.

[eemy]

As much as I dislike Tim Hudak, that would actually be good policy.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by c_speed3108

Ontario Tories pledge to take back the 174.

http://www.ottawacitizen.com/business/Ontario+Tories+pledge+take+back/9307790/story.html

Although I agree with this, it is interesting that it was the previous Tory government that foolishly downloaded old Highway 17 in the first place. Since then, highway improvements serving the east end of the city have stagnated.

[J.OT13]

That's the one thing Ottawa would get, with Toronto getting billions for subway expansions and highway improvements. Sound familiar? The Conservitives are no better than the Liberals when it comes to kneeling down to Toronto while snubbing Ottawa. Bare minimum, they could at least have promised the 1 teeny tiny billion for ORT expansion.

Liberals blast PC plan for Ontario cities

By Michael Aubry, Ottawa Sun

Ottawa is largely snubbed in a new report from the Ontario Tories that outlines how they'd manage the province's growing cities.

The white paper, entitled Building Greater Cities, focuses on plans for a new subway line in Toronto to relieve mounting congestion that clogs its highways.

It also recommends putting all rail-based transit and major highway projects in the GTA under a provincial agency to manage.

Ottawa does get a nod with a plan -- often touted by the Tories -- to upload the costs of expanding Hwy. 174 to the province.

"Road widening and highway extensions are a big part of what's needed to get people moving again," the report states.

It also suggests more work needs to be done to clean up the Ottawa River.

However, Liberal leaders are criticizing the plan for leaving the rest of the province out of the mix.

"The divisive (Tim) Hudak PC plan will pit region against region in order to pay for their expensive subway expansion plan," Minister of Transportation and Infrastructure Glen Murray told the Sun.

To pay for large-scale infrastructure projects, the Liberals are proposing to raise the taxes on gas at the pumps by as much as $0.10/litre and increasing the HST.

The money from each community would be used for projects in that community.

That plan is now open to public consultations.

For their part, Hudak's Tories are calling for a strict hold on any tax hikes, instead leaning towards an Ontario Transportation Trust that would collect up to $2 billion per year by shifting priorities in the annual budget, selling off surplus lands and moving cushy downtown offices to the suburbs to save money on leases.

It would also rely on more public-private partnerships for municipal projects to cut costs.

But Ontario Liberals argue that plan would merely benefit larger cities and projects in the GTA instead of spreading the wealth across all of the province.

"Our plan won't rob Peter to pay Paul by pitting one region's infrastructure priorities against another's," said Murray.

Besides transit, the PC white paper encourages de-regulating the arts industry to attract musicians and filmmakers.

It also calls for reducing the amount of red tape police officers have to wade through - since 60% of their day is spent filing paperwork - to get them back in the field longer.

The plan also intends to increase the supports for teens at risk by offering more training and work opportunities at a younger age and closing the gaps in mental health services.

[email protected]

Twitter: @ottawasunmaubry

Progressive Conservative Plan for Cities

- Put all rail-based transit and major highways in GTA under provincial agency

- Build subways where light rail would compete with traffic

- Highest priority would be Toronto Downtown Relief Line

- Full subway for Scarborough

- Improvments for Hwy 427 north, Hwy 404 and Hwy 7 between Kitchener and Guelph

- Electronic speed signs to alter speeds during rush hour

- Coordinated traffic lights

- WiFi on GO Trains

- Create Ontario Transportation Trust to find transit/transportation

- Re-prioritize existing $12 billion capital budget to transportation projects

- Trust should also be funded by selling surplus land, excess provincial buildings

- Increase Ontario's share of immigration

- Expand jets at Toronto Island Airport

- Less pressure on neighbourhoods to accept inappropriately high densities

- Condo guidelines to bring transparency to fees

- Housing allowances for those on assistance

- Better services like schools and libraries for suburbs and downtown condo dwellers

- Expose at-risk teens to economic and training opportunities earlier

- Close gaps in mental health services

- Treat chronic homelessness as a mental health and addictions issue, not just a poverty issue

http://www.ottawasun.com/2013/12/19/liberals-blast-pc-plan-for-ontario-cities

And yes, I get the irony of the Liberals blasting the Tories on this one.

[S-Man]

Heard Chiarelli's PC opponent specifically mention the Ottawa LRT phase 2 when questioned yesterday about how the transit funding model would work.

For what it's worth...

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by S-Man

Heard Chiarelli's PC opponent specifically mention the Ottawa LRT phase 2 when questioned yesterday about how the transit funding model would work.

For what it's worth...

Define "mention". Politicians "mention" a lot of things, like how they like seeing cities invest in transit and how they "support" transit and still fall short of offering up money to pay for it unless your within Toronto's field of gravity.

[S-Man]

Trying to recollect the exact phrasing (I was executing a difficult lane change).

Was along the lines of 'Transit funding (from PC plan) would benefit more than Toronto...after all, Ottawa is planning their expansion of LRT soon)....

Best I can do. With this in mind, has Ottawa asked the province or feds for money yet officially? You can't dedicate transit cash unless its asked for, right? (Yes, I know Toronto is the anomaly).

Anyhoo, it could be lip service, but there are plenty of voters to woo inside the greenbelt (all Lib MPP ridings) with the possibility of transit cash. I know Kathleen isn't bothering looking outside Toronto's greenbelt (redbelt?) for votes.

But, as with all things political, it could just be empty lip service with no future reality to back it up.

Like being told everyone's hydro bills will only go up one percent a year.

You know, that kind of shit.

[J.OT13]

Originally Posted by S-Man

Trying to recollect the exact phrasing (I was executing a difficult lane change).

Was along the lines of 'Transit funding (from PC plan) would benefit more than Toronto...after all, Ottawa is planning their expansion of LRT soon)....

Best I can do. With this in mind, has Ottawa asked the province or feds for money yet officially? You can't dedicate transit cash unless its asked for, right? (Yes, I know Toronto is the anomaly).

Anyhoo, it could be lip service, but there are plenty of voters to woo inside the greenbelt (all Lib MPP ridings) with the possibility of transit cash. I know Kathleen isn't bothering looking outside Toronto's greenbelt (redbelt?) for votes.

But, as with all things political, it could just be empty lip service with no future reality to back it up.

Like being told everyone's hydro bills will only go up one percent a year.

You know, that kind of shit.

For the first time, I might just not vote. It doesn't matter who gets in, it will only benefit Toronto. Like you said, they're an anomaly; they don't even have to ask for money or have a plan, the Province will make the plans and pay for them themselves.

[1overcosc]

At this point regarding transit funding the three parties can be summarized as follows:
1) Libs - appear to be promising province-wide transit funding, at the cost of new taxes
2) PCs - appear to be promising Toronto funding, limited non-Toronto funding, without new taxes
3) NDP - unclear; appear to agree with basic idea of revenue tools but oppose gas & sales taxes, prefer use of corporate & income taxes; would probably be fair to the whole province given their base now is in the North and the Southwest.

If it weren't for the fact that it can be difficult to trust them, I'd support the Libs because their plan makes the most sense and is the most fleshed out, and proposes guaranteed annual income in place of the current 'get money when votes are needed' system. I'll go NDP if they propose to basically use the Liberal plan and have income tax as the revenue generator; Ontario does have the lowest income taxes in the country and it's the most non-regressive tax we have.

[Mikeed]

I think widdening the 174 has been pragmatically pushed back till after the metro -I'm trying to shift the wording away from LRT since the City is building a high volume light metro using LRT tech, but it's not catching on lol- is extended to Orleans. During the keynote announcement Watson mentioned the removal of bus lanes from the 174 would ease congestion without any mention of actual widening.

So the City are probably gonna wait till 2022 to widen 174. But this might become an election issue both municipally and provincial. Especially if the PCs make it a promise.
Edit- And there's some merit to that since the road arguably serves a more regional/provincial purpose.

[hwy418]

Originally Posted by Mikeed

I think widdening the 174 has been pragmatically pushed back till after the metro -I'm trying to shift the wording away from LRT since the City is building a high volume light metro using LRT tech, but it's not catching on lol- is extended to Orleans. During the keynote announcement Watson mentioned the removal of bus lanes from the 174 would ease congestion without any mention of actual widening.

So the City are probably gonna wait till 2022 to widen 174. But this might become an election issue both municipally and provincial. Especially if the PCs make it a promise.
Edit- And there's some merit to that since the road arguably serves a more regional/provincial purpose.

If the City is planning to just reallocate the shoulder bus lanes on OR174 to general purpose lanes, then I definitely want the MTO to take the highway back.

The bus lanes are not setup properly for general traffic and lanes would not be balanced though the interchanges. In addition there is no proper shoulder beyond the current bus lanes (2.5m to 3.0m fully paved) because the current bus lanes are the shoulders!

A widening will be required even if the City plans use the bus lane for general traffic if/when the Orleans LRT will be in place.

[S-Man]

The Toronto thing is a depressing downer, for sure. However, an election has not even been called yet, though it is assumed for budget time next spring.

I'm wondering if there is any possible way of getting the incumbent Libs to somehow recognize Ottawa's needs for transit, while not taxing everything and everyone to death at the same time to do it. They are making good revenue, and could accomplish it without going the easy route and just jacking everything up. People in Ontario want to see more value from (tax, fee, tool) dollar. Fat chance, maybe, unless they hear that Ottawa people will make a point of voting NDP or PC due to the constant GTA navel gazing.

If the course of the winter goes by with no word from Wynne, it's clear she knows where her bread is buttered and the snub would be complete.

In such a case, lets just all change our vote this election (from whatever party to a different one) and see what happens. Why the hell not?