YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[deasine]

Originally Posted by casper

Not certain if it is permitted under the various treaties, one option for Air Canada may be to use Narita as a stop on the way to India. If they can make the schedule work so that they have transfers at Narita to and from the Calgary, Vancouver and Toronto flight that may make the flight viable.

The Japanese government has been insistent on allowing any more fifth freedoms in Tokyo. If it was via secondary cities like Osaka, there would be a higher likelihood of the government granting the route, but even then, just because AC has the right doesn't mean they would or even should operate the route. Having any fifth freedom flights means you most likely need a new base of FAs which can go against the existing unions and significant added costs, made worse since Japan has relatively high wages compared to other Asian countries. Moreover, with the weakening Japanese YEN and US carriers trying to decrease NRT importance in their TPAC networks, it makes less sense to fly via Japan.

Again I cite AAs direct ORD-DEL as the prime example: just because a route has high load factors doesn't mean a route can be financially feasible. Traffic to India is highly cyclical based on seasons and is also generally low yielding. Yet despite having high yields in business class, AA could not make the route work due to fuel costs and lack of onward feed.

Responding to trohifen's question on which city, I don't think anything is particularly wrong with existing hubs. If it has to be a new route then I think EK is the only logical contender and even then there are current Transport Canada restrictions.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by deasine

The Japanese government has been insistent on allowing any more fifth freedoms in Tokyo. If it was via secondary cities like Osaka, there would be a higher likelihood of the government granting the route, but even then, just because AC has the right doesn't mean they would or even should operate the route. Having any fifth freedom flights means you most likely need a new base of FAs which can go against the existing unions and significant added costs, made worse since Japan has relatively high wages compared to other Asian countries. Moreover, with the weakening Japanese YEN and US carriers trying to decrease NRT importance in their TPAC networks, it makes less sense to fly via Japan.

Again I cite AAs direct ORD-DEL as the prime example: just because a route has high load factors doesn't mean a route can be financially feasible. Traffic to India is highly cyclical based on seasons and is also generally low yielding. Yet despite having high yields in business class, AA could not make the route work due to fuel costs and lack of onward feed.

Responding to trohifen's question on which city, I don't think anything is particularly wrong with existing hubs. If it has to be a new route then I think EK is the only logical contender and even then there are current Transport Canada restrictions.

Regarding a route to India, from what you have stated above, it seems as if we're stuck, and can't really find a more direct route. A shame, really.

[casper]

Originally Posted by deasine

The Japanese government has been insistent on allowing any more fifth freedoms in Tokyo. If it was via secondary cities like Osaka, there would be a higher likelihood of the government granting the route, but even then, just because AC has the right doesn't mean they would or even should operate the route. Having any fifth freedom flights means you most likely need a new base of FAs which can go against the existing unions and significant added costs, made worse since Japan has relatively high wages compared to other Asian countries. Moreover, with the weakening Japanese YEN and US carriers trying to decrease NRT importance in their TPAC networks, it makes less sense to fly via Japan.

Again I cite AAs direct ORD-DEL as the prime example: just because a route has high load factors doesn't mean a route can be financially feasible. Traffic to India is highly cyclical based on seasons and is also generally low yielding. Yet despite having high yields in business class, AA could not make the route work due to fuel costs and lack of onward feed.

Responding to trohifen's question on which city, I don't think anything is particularly wrong with existing hubs. If it has to be a new route then I think EK is the only logical contender and even then there are current Transport Canada restrictions.

I would view in the same way as Zurich. When Air Canada last operated flights to India it was via a city in Europe that had fifth freedom rights from. In the case of Zurich it was a city that was a summer only service and with the tag on to India it provided sufficient demand to go year round. Swiss code shared on both legs included the leg into India. I do not believe they opened up any new flight attendant bases.

Air Canada currently has three flights into Tokyo some with the smallest wide-body in the fleet and the local market is not growing. If they can get the rights, make the code shares work it might help support the existing flights to japan.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by casper

I would view in the same way as Zurich. When Air Canada last operated flights to India it was via a city in Europe that had fifth freedom rights from. In the case of Zurich it was a city that was a summer only service and with the tag on to India it provided sufficient demand to go year round. Swiss code shared on both legs included the leg into India. I do not believe they opened up any new flight attendant bases.

I believe, and cannot be 100% sure, that it was via London Heathrow in which we did have a staff base there.

If there is no base, then you are essentially going to base these FAs in Canada, pay to fly them to whatever fifth freedom city, and then pay them to fly onwards to India again.

[casper]

Originally Posted by deasine

I believe, and cannot be 100% sure, that it was via London Heathrow in which we did have a staff base there.

If there is no base, then you are essentially going to base these FAs in Canada, pay to fly them to whatever fifth freedom city, and then pay them to fly onwards to India again.

I think they tried London much farther back in time. I have never been to India however back when they were operating this I did the odd trip to Zurich. A copy of the press release is in the link below....

Looks like they also tried non-stop from Toronto using the Airbus 340-500 before switching to the Zurich flight. Zurich and Geneva are nice business markets, the problem is filling the economy seats in the winter.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-canada-aeroplan/450738-air-canada-serve-delhi-via-zurich.html

Not certain about the crew. I would think day one you fly to Zurich. Rest overnight, then fly to India, overnight, then fly back to Zurich, overnight and then fly back to Canada.

[trofirhen]

Here's the conventional run via London:
http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance3/yvr-to-lhr-del/

and here's via Tokyo:
http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance3/yvr-to-hnd-del/

from YYZ via Zurich
http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance3/yyz-to-zrh-del/

and, just for interest, from Seoul.
http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance3/yvr-to-icn-del/
Now, please count the distance among the four routes and notice the differences and similarities.
Feasibility analysis I leave to the more knowledgeable on the topic.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by casper

I think they tried London much farther back in time. I have never been to India however back when they were operating this I did the odd trip to Zurich. A copy of the press release is in the link below....

Looks like they also tried non-stop from Toronto using the Airbus 340-500 before switching to the Zurich flight. Zurich and Geneva are nice business markets, the problem is filling the economy seats in the winter.

http://www.flyertalk.com/forum/air-canada-aeroplan/450738-air-canada-serve-delhi-via-zurich.html

Not certain about the crew. I would think day one you fly to Zurich. Rest overnight, then fly to India, overnight, then fly back to Zurich, overnight and then fly back to Canada.

The thing is, why fly the fifth freedom when a partner could do it. This has been the changing approach for aviation now: making use of existing resources of partners as opposed to doing it yourself (especially when the partner flies there anyway). It reduces risk/necessity to need to fly all the way there and frees up aircraft and staff to fly other routes. If there was a sufficient demand steady throughout the entire year, it may be possible for AC to support a direct (not necessarily non-stop) flight. However, as I mentioned before, demand to India is very seasonal and low yielding, and with so many competitors, from CX and CI via Asia, BA and LH via Europe, or EK and EY via Gulf, it's incredibly difficult for AC to position themselves amongst so many competitors in a market that does not have much profits to begin with.

[trofirhen]

http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance3/yvr-to-ctu-del/
via Chengdu

This run is even a tad shorter than YYZ - ZHR - DEL
(alas, no connecting flights to Delhi it seems; but it does show a potentially shorter route)

[Genauso]

I wonder how much the new list of passenger rights will make airlines consider routing flights through airports prone to inclement weather, or at least the pricing of the same.

[excel]

YVR AIRSIDE OPERATIONS BUILDING UNDER CONSTRUCTION
POSTED ON JANUARY 1ST, 2014

The new Airside Operations Facility at Vancouver International Airport is well underway. Slated for completion in October of 2014, the project will enhance overall safety and efficiency as well as adequately serve current and future airport operations. The 8,626 square meter building comprises a new fire hall, maintenance bays, indoor parking garage, materials storage building with vehicle wash bays and a fuelling complex. The project will also serve as a central hub of operations and a staging area for all airside maintenance activities.


http://www.franclarchitecture.com/yvr-airside-operations-building-under-construction


http://www.franclarchitecture.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/01/YVRAO.jpg

[Johnny Aussie]

Taking advantage of the new Taiwan - Canada bilateral allowing more flights, EVA Air increasing YVR-TPE to 4 weekly effective June 2014.

YYZ also being bumped to 4 weekly.

[Johnny Aussie]

Effective 1 March JAL changing their daily YVR-NRT flight to a 788.

Good move on their part. Decrease in capacity but improved product to compete with ANA/AC.

http://airlineroute.net/2014/01/08/jl-feb14/

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Effective 1 March JAL changing their daily YVR-NRT flight to a 788.

Good move on their part. Decrease in capacity but improved product to compete with ANA/AC.

http://airlineroute.net/2014/01/08/jl-feb14/

Beat me to it, but I'm not so sure it's an improved product per say. In J, the product goes from refirbished 767s with the SkySuite II which is a lie-flat, staggered product 1-2-1 (all with direct aisle access, similar seats to ACs 777 HDs but given the smaller fuselage, it is more private with more space per passenger) to a angled lie-flat in a traditional 2-2-2 configuration.

[Gordon]

Sichuan has decreased its service yve to chengdu from 3 \ week to 2 \wk from feb to june 2014.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Gordon

Sichuan has decreased its service yve to chengdu from 3 \ week to 2 \wk from feb to june 2014.

Yup, same seasonal reduction as last year.

Right now they are only showing 3 weekly for the summer 2014 scheds. It was 4 per week last year. A bit too early for that to be confirmed as I would expect it to go up to 4 again in the summer. Probably in Feb.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by deasine

Beat me to it, but I'm not so sure it's an improved product per say. In J, the product goes from refirbished 767s with the SkySuite II which is a lie-flat, staggered product 1-2-1 (all with direct aisle access, similar seats to ACs 777 HDs but given the smaller fuselage, it is more private with more space per passenger) to a angled lie-flat in a traditional 2-2-2 configuration.

Now that I have looked into it a bit more I see your point. I've been a bit hasty with some posts lately as my time to investigate scoops is limited right now as I am gallivanting around! In New Orleans right now finally escaping the deep freeze!

Also, now that I have looked into this even further, this may be only a temporary change. The JAL press release about the 787s is a bit vague.

https://www.jal.co.jp/en/info/other/131123.html

[Valley_Refugee]

November passenger stats are out. Overall up 1.7% through the first 11 months of 2013. If that trend holds through December, it will be a record year for YVR: almost 17.9M pax.

http://www.yvr.ca/Libraries/Aviation_Marketing/November_2013_Traffic_Update.sflb.ashx

[teriyaki]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

Now that I have looked into it a bit more I see your point. I've been a bit hasty with some posts lately as my time to investigate scoops is limited right now as I am gallivanting around! In New Orleans right now finally escaping the deep freeze!

Also, now that I have looked into this even further, this may be only a temporary change. The JAL press release about the 787s is a bit vague.

https://www.jal.co.jp/en/info/other/131123.html

Interesting. Looks like they're diverting their 787's away from routes that have a higher possibility of thunderstorms (depending on the season). The 787 can never seem to get a break from the bad press it seems.

With that said, doesn't look like this will affect ANA's 787s since they're powered by RR Trent englines.

[casper]

This is sad news about the person who passed away in Edmonton

http://www.flyertalk.com/the-gate/blog/2...a-confirmed-should-you-be-concerned.html

Given the challenges of handling the volume of passengers through an airport the size of Vancouver I don't know if there is much more than can be done in a situation such as this.

[Denscity]

CBC News is today reporting the hiring of 100s of flight attendants for Rouge based in Vancouver.