YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[whatnext]

Did Air Canada not add a second YVR-SYD flgiht this winter?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by whatnext

Did Air Canada not add a second YVR-SYD flgiht this winter?

if they did, might this augur more flights into Australia?
AC has stated a YVR - BNE 787 route will start in 2014 or 2015, so is this really going to happen?
And what about anything into MEL?
(unlikely, it seems)

[rxp]

Chuck Chiang: Is a Vancouver–India air link in our future?


BY CHUCK CHIANG, VANCOUVER SUN COLUMNIST DECEMBER 22, 2013 1:30 PM


Chuck Chiang: Is a Vancouver-India air link in our future?

An Air India Boeing 787 Dreamliner flies over Le Bourget airport, near Paris on June 18, 2013 during the 50th International Paris Air show.
Photograph by: ERIC FEFERBERG , AFP/Getty Images
It has always surprised me, given the large South Asian population in Canada (and especially Metro Vancouver), that air links between the two countries are almost non-existent.

After all, the South Asian community — at 1.6 million strong — is the country’s largest visible minority, outnumbering Chinese-Canadians (although, in Metro, the Chinese are the largest group).

It is a community whose members have excelled at every level of society, from politics to business and from entertainment to sports. Meanwhile, bilateral trade between the two countries has grown to more than $2 billion annually.

So it is strange that Canada, in its entirety, has only one daily air service to and from India (Jet Airway’s Toronto-Delhi flight, which makes a stop in Brussels). In comparison, Vancouver alone has about 10 daily flights to destinations in China.

The curious fact has not been lost on either the airlines or the airports. In recent talks in Vancouver, both Air Canada and YVR officials mentioned India as a market they are interested in, albeit without specifics or any hint of imminent announcements.

Reports from 2011 suggest Air Canada explored new routes to India then. Given the hyper-competitive landscape of global commercial aviation, it is guaranteed that the airline explored every facet of feasibility of such a route. If it didn’t come about, it must have meant the economics didn’t make sense.

But that may finally be changing. According to India’s Business Standard, Air India will begin talking code-sharing with Star Alliance members after the alliance voted to integrate the Indian airline into its 28-airline ranks. The report noted, specifically, Air India’s eagerness to talk to one particular Star Alliance member — Air Canada.

Code-sharing is a common practice in the airline industry where one airline can sell tickets to a flight, even if it is operated by another airline, and route luggage all the way to a final destination even with a carrier change mid-route. For the customer, it simplifies booking and travel. For an airline, it means extend its destination reach without an expansion of flight operations.

“We would like to code-share with Air Canada because we have stopped our flights to Canada,” an official with Air India told the Business Standard. “These discussions will happen concurrently, along with the (Star Alliance) integration process.

It is unclear whether Air India meant code-sharing on domestic flights within India (which leaves unspecified the role of who will provide the initial Canada-India service) or on an international Canada-India flight.

However, Air Canada CEO Calin Rovinescu did mention in Vancouver recently that his airline will leverage code-share agreements to enter new markets.

Meanwhile, the economics of a Canada-India route may change soon. Air Canada will begin getting new Boeing 787 Dreamliners in March, and there are expected to be 37 Dreamliners in Air Canada’s fleet by late 2019. Officials have long touted the Dreamliners’ dramatically improved economics — its lighter weight allows for more efficient operation, and its larger capacity means more revenue per flight.

Such a plane might allow Air Canada to serve markets where it previously deemed economically unsustainable — like, for instance, India. With the code-share potentially unlocking a cluster of domestic feeder routes in India tying into a Canada-India flight, it would appear the very early outlines of a potential service may be taking place.

Of course, there remains challenges, one of which is the nature of the South Asian community in Canada.

Unlike the Chinese Canadian community, where “astronauts” — family breadwinners who travel frequently between work in Asia and family in Canada — are common, the South Asian community tends to settle and stay in the Great White North. The vast majority of travel is made by family members who visit from India, often for six months at a time, limiting the frequency of using flights.

And then there’s the abundance of Asian airlines already targeting the local South Asian market. My parents recently returned from a month-long trip to visit family and friends in Taiwan, and I was shocked to find a large portion of the passengers on their China Airlines flights — both departing and return — were South Asians connecting through Taipei to Delhi.

Similar phenomena can also be seen with many other Asian airlines at YVR — especially Cathay Pacific through Hong Kong and EVA Air, also through Taipei. So perhaps the demand of South Asian flights has already been accounted for — in Canada’s many flights to East Asia.

Source: http://www.vancouversun.com/Business/asi...ver+India+link+future/9315733/story.html

[Cage]

Originally Posted by rxp

Chuck Chiang: Is a Vancouver–India air link in our future?


BY CHUCK CHIANG, VANCOUVER SUN COLUMNIST DECEMBER 22, 2013 1:30 PM


Chuck Chiang: Is a Vancouver-India air link in our future?



Source: http://www.vancouversun.com/Business/asi...ver+India+link+future/9315733/story.html

Doubtful that yvr-del is profitable even with 787. Part of the problem is the route has 2.5 aircraft commitment. With profitability marginal at best, that's too much metal for to little return.

[Johnny Aussie]

Compared to summer 2013
Note my references are relating to capacity changes only.

ANA
HND – new daily 763 (up 1498 seats pw)

ICELANDAIR
KEF – new 2 weekly 752 (up 378 seats pw)

AIR CANADA
ICN – back to daily 763 from 4 weekly last summer (up 633 seats pw)
HKG – increase due to high density 77W (up 763 seats pw)
LHR – increase due to high density 77W (up 763 seats pw)
PEK – upgauge to 77W from 763 but frequency down to 7 from 11 (up 122 seats pw)
NRT – downgauge from 763 from 77W (down 966 seats pw) – due to JV with ANA new daily YVR-HND
YYZ – increased capacity due to more 763 flying and reintroducing 77W on 2 of the daily flights
YOW – increased capacity due to daily 763 replacing one of the daily 320s
(Note AC domestic far from finalised anyway but putting more wide bodies on now)

VIRGIN ATLANTIC
LHR – increase from 4 to 5 weekly (up 240 seats pw)

LUFTHANSA
FRA – upgauge from daily 346 to daily 744 (up 322 seats pw)
MUC – flying season extended to commence a couple of months earlier than the route launch in 2013

KLM
AMS – downgauge from daily 772 to 333 (down 210 seats pw)

UNITED
IAD – increase from 2 weekly to daily 320 (up 690 seats pw)

DELTA
SEA – new 5 daily CR9 (up 2660 seats pw)
ATL – increase from 1 weekly to 3 weekly (up 340 seats pw)

AA this morning bumped DFW back to 3 daily (was only 2 yesterday)
UA this morning bumped DEN back to 23 weekly as well

[whatnext]

From what I've hear those high density AC 777's are nasty in economy. A good reason to fly VS to LHR instead.

JohnnyA, do you know if AC cancelled their second winter SYD flight?

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by whatnext

From what I've hear those high density AC 777's are nasty in economy. A good reason to fly VS to LHR instead.

JohnnyA, do you know if AC cancelled their second winter SYD flight?

Last winter AC did fly 12 extra flights from YVR-SYD. Basically 3 extra flights per week for the peak 4 weeks around Xmas into mid January. No they did not fly those this year. Too bad they didn't though.

Yeah, and I was going to leave it up to you guys to determine if any of these capacity increases were gains or losses on the comfort front!

[deasine]

Well if you were in the market for Premium Economy (W) they are nice. Trust me the upcoming AC 787s in Y is not that much better.

[trofirhen]

http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance/yvr-to-del/

Clicking on this, one can see the most direct route to
Delhi is polar, but still on the Pacific side, over central Asia and Western China.
(yes I know there's an existing rule on that)

The closest major city is Ürümqui, in the Western desert region of Xingiang: the airport, from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_Diwopu_International_Airport

Okay, there's nothing into Delhi, but there are flights to Baku, Novosibirsk, Dushanbe, Moscow, Tashkent, Istanbul, Islamabad ....

Ürümqui is a hub for our Star Alliance friend China Southern.
Like that customs-free connector area proposed for YVR for ongoing flights to mining interests at Lima and Santiago
(both closer from YVR, in this instance than from YYZ) > hey, they might reciprocate, and do the similar for us.
That's if China and India can get a bilateral going of course.

Maybe it's a fanciful shot in the dark, but I was trying to think outside the box a bit.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance/yvr-to-del/

Clicking on this, one can see the most direct route to
Delhi is polar, but still on the Pacific side, over central Asia and Western China.
(yes I know there's an existing rule on that)

The closest major city is Ürümqui, in the Western desert region of Xingiang: the airport, from wikipedia:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/%C3%9Cr%C3%BCmqi_Diwopu_International_Airport

Okay, there's nothing into Delhi, but there are flights to Baku, Novosibirsk, Dushanbe, Moscow, Tashkent, Istanbul, Islamabad ....

Ürümqui is a hub for our Star Alliance friend China Southern.
Like that customs-free connector area proposed for YVR for ongoing flights to mining interests at Lima and Santiago
(both closer from YVR, in this instance than from YYZ) > hey, they might reciprocate, and do the similar for us.
That's if China and India can get a bilateral going of course.

Maybe it's a fanciful shot in the dark, but I was trying to think outside the box a bit.

Note: CZ is SkyTeam and not Star Alliance. Small detail, but makes a big difference given that the only international Canadian carrier belongs in Star and not SkyTeam.

I'm not 100% sure what you are proposing/saying. If you are hoping CZ is to fly YVR-URC for connections to India, there doesn't really need to be a bilateral given that all three major Chinese airlines fly into India (I'm not sure if they have reached the maximum number of slots however, and if they are there needs to be discussion to expand the slots). If you are proposing AC or WS or any other North American carrier to fly to India via URC, that will not happen due to the following reasons: (1) URC has a small feed relative to many other secondary cities and Chinese hubs; (2) URC as a destination *currently* (I emphasise currently as West China is expected to significantly grow in the next decade) does not have sufficient O&D; and (3) China does not grant fifth freedoms, however, just *may be* a bit more flexible with secondary cities given their emphasis in their policy developments.

And yes as you indicated there is hardly any feed except for Central Asia, nothing to India. Growth in Central Asian countries will grow as West China and India continue to grow and develop, but this is definitely much longer term. Within the decade, I am quite sure there will be no need/insufficient demand for any flights to West China. Perhaps there will be another direct flight from Central Chinese cities, CTU (we currently have a 2 weekly flight there via SHE), CKG , XIY, and KMG to YVR: UA will launch CTU-SFO indicative of growing demand for West China and I can see AC launching a flight to a Chinese Secondary City as the growth and demand picks up. But this is definitely not in the short-term, especially since AC does not have a lot of spare planes.

If there is any direct YVR-India, it would likely come from Air India as they seemingly have the right to bleed money. Another possibility that may be more probable is from SQ's proposed Indian carrier, but this carrier won't launch international services right away until the Indian Aviation board gets rid of some onerous and frankly unnecessary restrictions. In the world of aviation, this is definitely one very interesting carrier to look out for: SQ is currently not doing very well due to the increased competition between Europe-Asia (from gulf carriers), many more SE Asia carriers stepping up, and limited geography of SIN. This Indian carrier has the potential to dramatically change SQs business and future network, pending changes in internal business operations/culture along with the deregulation of aviation in India.

[Thousands Wouldn't]

Is there a thread for the new outlet mall u/c at YVR?

[Klazu]

Rather than Air India, it would be great to see Kingfisher Airlines one day fly to YVR, maybe with one of their 800-seat Airbus 380's currently under order. One can dream.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by Klazu

Rather than Air India, it would be great to see Kingfisher Airlines one day fly to YVR, maybe with one of their 800-seat Airbus 380's currently under order. One can dream.

Kingfisher is long dead: a great example of an airline that was all about brand and couldn't control its own cost.

Originally Posted by Thousands Wouldn't

Is there a thread for the new outlet mall u/c at YVR?

This would be the thread for that.

[Klazu]

Originally Posted by deasine

Kingfisher is long dead: a great example of an airline that was all about brand and couldn't control its own cost.

Oh, when did that happen?? I never flew with them, but I was always curious about the fact of an Indian airline being five star. Shame.

[Millennium2002]

I actually think it only died recently in the past year or two... It's too bad really that they couldn't sustain themeselves.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by deasine

Note: CZ is SkyTeam and not Star Alliance. Small detail, but makes a big difference given that the only international Canadian carrier belongs in Star and not SkyTeam.

I'm not 100% sure what you are proposing/saying. If you are hoping CZ is to fly YVR-URC for connections to India, there doesn't really need to be a bilateral given that all three major Chinese airlines fly into India (I'm not sure if they have reached the maximum number of slots however, and if they are there needs to be discussion to expand the slots). If you are proposing AC or WS or any other North American carrier to fly to India via URC, that will not happen due to the following reasons: (1) URC has a small feed relative to many other secondary cities and Chinese hubs; (2) URC as a destination *currently* (I emphasise currently as West China is expected to significantly grow in the next decade) does not have sufficient O&D; and (3) China does not grant fifth freedoms, however, just *may be* a bit more flexible with secondary cities given their emphasis in their policy developments.

And yes as you indicated there is hardly any feed except for Central Asia, nothing to India. Growth in Central Asian countries will grow as West China and India continue to grow and develop, but this is definitely much longer term. Within the decade, I am quite sure there will be no need/insufficient demand for any flights to West China. Perhaps there will be another direct flight from Central Chinese cities, CTU (we currently have a 2 weekly flight there via SHE), CKG , XIY, and KMG to YVR: UA will launch CTU-SFO indicative of growing demand for West China and I can see AC launching a flight to a Chinese Secondary City as the growth and demand picks up. But this is definitely not in the short-term, especially since AC does not have a lot of spare planes.

If there is any direct YVR-India, it would likely come from Air India as they seemingly have the right to bleed money. Another possibility that may be more probable is from SQ's proposed Indian carrier, but this carrier won't launch international services right away until the Indian Aviation board gets rid of some onerous and frankly unnecessary restrictions. In the world of aviation, this is definitely one very interesting carrier to look out for: SQ is currently not doing very well due to the increased competition between Europe-Asia (from gulf carriers), many more SE Asia carriers stepping up, and limited geography of SIN. This Indian carrier has the potential to dramatically change SQs business and future network, pending changes in internal business operations/culture along with the deregulation of aviation in India.

Are there any other airports that might work?

[Vagabond]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

http://www.airmilescalculator.com/distance/yvr-to-del/

Clicking on this, one can see the most direct route to
Delhi is polar, but still on the Pacific side, over central Asia and Western China.
(yes I know there's an existing rule on that)

Another factor to consider is that commercial jets can't/don't fly over the highest sections of the Himalaya. I believe a YVR-DEL flight would likely have to turn south over Siberia/China and then "swing" around through eastern India (as do most of the East Asia-India flights). Even KE's ICN-KTM flight follows a similar route.

Originally Posted by deasine

If there is any direct YVR-India, it would likely come from Air India as they seemingly have the right to bleed money

Air India has actually pulled up its socks over the past couple of years and is now operating at a somewhat acceptable (if still not respectable) level. This has been reflected by its tentative (and now likely) acceptance into Star Alliance (after years of dancing and dithering). Also, much of the negative press/reputation AI has received has been from its international flights, as on domestic India routes, AI is quite competitive.

AI's interest in codesharing with AC is a welcome development (IMO), as AC currently codeshares with Jet Airways (9W) on flights to India via LHR, with a lengthy layover going each way. AI's flights to/from LHR have much more reasonable layover times to/from YVR than 9W's, so a new AC-AI codeshare on Canada-India flights via LHR would be a logical first step towards greater integration (and potential non-stop flights).

Having done YVR-BOM (via ICN) recently, I can attest to how grueling 24 hours of travel can be (especially with small children!!) Anything that makes this journey easier would be very welcome from my (very selfish) perspective!

[casper]

Originally Posted by Vagabond

Another factor to consider is that commercial jets can't/don't fly over the highest sections of the Himalaya. I believe a YVR-DEL flight would likely have to turn south over Siberia/China and then "swing" around through eastern India (as do most of the East Asia-India flights). Even KE's ICN-KTM flight follows a similar route.



Air India has actually pulled up its socks over the past couple of years and is now operating at a somewhat acceptable (if still not respectable) level. This has been reflected by its tentative (and now likely) acceptance into Star Alliance (after years of dancing and dithering). Also, much of the negative press/reputation AI has received has been from its international flights, as on domestic India routes, AI is quite competitive.

AI's interest in codesharing with AC is a welcome development (IMO), as AC currently codeshares with Jet Airways (9W) on flights to India via LHR, with a lengthy layover going each way. AI's flights to/from LHR have much more reasonable layover times to/from YVR than 9W's, so a new AC-AI codeshare on Canada-India flights via LHR would be a logical first step towards greater integration (and potential non-stop flights).

Having done YVR-BOM (via ICN) recently, I can attest to how grueling 24 hours of travel can be (especially with small children!!) Anything that makes this journey easier would be very welcome from my (very selfish) perspective!

Not certain if it is permitted under the various treaties, one option for Air Canada may be to use Narita as a stop on the way to India. If they can make the schedule work so that they have transfers at Narita to and from the Calgary, Vancouver and Toronto flight that may make the flight viable.

[Johnny Aussie]

Happy New Year everybody wherever you are.

Kicking off 2014 with another service increase.

US Airways is increasing PHX to 18 weekly next summer.

A new flight being added departing YVR at 1755 x123 on a 319. Arrives in PHX at 2058.

This latest addition pushes YVR transborder to over 80 daily flights including 50 daily mainline flights.

YVR has not seen this many transborder flights since 2008. So getting back to its peak slowly!

[craneSpotter]

Hmmm, Canada Jetlines is sounding more serious...maybe one business goal could be for them to collect (price sensitive - vacation package folks) leisure travellers from across the west (maybe even TO) for Asian connections at YVR.

In any case, it would be good to have an airline based at YVR...hope it flies

Canada Jetlines names former Frontier Airlines executive as president

Financial Post Dec 31, 2013

Canada Jetlines Ltd. added to its executive ranks Monday with the appointment of former Frontier Airlines executive James Young as its new president.

Canada Jetlines is a new Vancouver-based ultra-low cost carrier that aims to to take the skies next year and plans to target several secondary and under-served markets in the West.

Vancouver’s Salman Partners is leading an effort to raise $100-million in financing to help with the launch of the discount airline, tentatively slated by the fall of 2014.