PHILADELPHIA | Highrise Development Thread IX

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by Philly-Drew

I get people don't like paying the 4%, but many suburbs you still have to pay 1%-2%. So the difference of 2%-3% in a wage tax could never bring me to live in the burbs. I grew up in the burbs and will never move back.

For me, it's about lifestyle.

I commute to the burbs 3-4 days a week and come back home. The town where I work takes 1%, Philadelphia takes the other 3%. When I am home, I never drive anywhere.

I do the same thing as you, but I have to admit I completely understand why people leave the city when they start making more money and want to start a family. I def see why the upper middle class doesn't want to pay the wage tax.

[japmes]

I have lived in Philly for 15 years and work in the suburbs. Paying extra to live in the city is worth it. The factor that might drive me out of the city in the next 2-3 years....schools. We are upper middle class but paying for private schools for 2 kids is a real stretch. It's no longer about paying an extra 4% but paying more than $40k per year extra. It's really hard to justify that just to live in the city. We might try the public school if they were at least funded properly. The way our city/state has starved city schools of funding is infuriating.

[rricci]

Since you're not averse to a transition anyway, why wouldn't you just enter your children into the charter school lottery and let them transfer out of private school as slots become available? That seems a lot easier than a move to the suburbs where, let's face it, the schools aren't exactly Choate anyway.

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by japmes

I have lived in Philly for 15 years and work in the suburbs. Paying extra to live in the city is worth it. The factor that might drive me out of the city in the next 2-3 years....schools. We are upper middle class but paying for private schools for 2 kids is a real stretch. It's no longer about paying an extra 4% but paying more than $40k per year extra. It's really hard to justify that just to live in the city. We might try the public school if they were at least funded properly. The way our city/state has starved city schools of funding is infuriating.

Absolutely. And anyone who says this has nothing to do with a funding issue does not have a grip on reality. This NYT piece covers the funding problem well, particularly in our region. The number of specialists and teachers as well as the availability of high-quality teaching materials and tools make a huge difference. And yes, it is true, Philadelphia's public schools have a high number of at-risk children. Acting as though nothing can be done to serve these children and their peers, implying that more funding is a waste, is a cynical, fatalistic, and inaccurate perspective that is very unhelpful for Philadelphia and families of all income brackets seeking to remain in Philadelphia.

http://www.nytimes.com/2013/12/22/educat...ls-math-of-todays-jammed-schools.html?hp

[summersm343]

Originally Posted by Flyers2001

You pay real estate taxes, higher sales tax and 4% of your check goes to the city. That's not suppose to be for the "privilege" of living in the city. Its suppose to work both ways.

In general, property taxes are cheaper in the city though, so it kind of evens out the wage tax.

[Flyers2001]

Originally Posted by summersm343

In general, property taxes are cheaper in the city though, so it kind of evens out the wage tax.

Not talking about the cost, I am talking about the "bang for the buck." You are making my point. My wage tax and property tax is equal to many that live in the surrounding suburbs, but they are getting better services for the same taxes, imo.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by summersm343

In general, property taxes are cheaper in the city though, so it kind of evens out the wage tax.

Not everyone is buying property in the city thought. Example of myself and a lot of my friends, we live in the city and work in the burbs (in my case, Philly to KOP commute every day). It wouldn't make sense for me to raise a family in the city because of the school system. Honestly, when I have kids, I'll likely move back to Charlotte to be near family, low taxes, cheaper real estate, better schools, and higher salaries in financial services.

Most people in Philly aren't making 6 figures and the taxes start adding up especially with the private school costs. I love the city, but the thought of my partner and i paying well over $100,000 in city wage taxes in less than a decade is a big issue...especially with the increasing cost of raising kids. Hopefully, they'll address those issues in the near future.

[MikeNigh]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Most people in Philly aren't making 6 figures and the taxes start adding up especially with the private school costs. I love the city, but the thought of my partner and i paying well over $100,000 in city wage taxes in less than a decade is a big issue...especially with the increasing cost of raising kids. Hopefully, they'll address those issues in the near future.

I am certain if the wage tax didn't exist the rents would go up atleast a few hundred a month. Also every true urban setting in america has similar or higher tax rates.

[ILovePhilly]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

Most people in Philly aren't making 6 figures and the taxes start adding up especially with the private school costs. I love the city, but the thought of my partner and i paying well over $100,000 in city wage taxes in less than a decade is a big issue...especially with the increasing cost of raising kids. Hopefully, they'll address those issues in the near future.

The fact is that the total tax burden on a middle income family with a home is lower in some suburbs, higher in some suburbs, and increasingly much higher in some suburbs than in the City. And most people aren't earning the kind of money where $100,000 in city taxes becomes their concern. A person or couple making $70k would pay less than $35k over ten years. After figuring in the wage taxes one pays living in the suburbs and the differential is only 1 or 2 percent or $16K over TEN YEARS. The wage tax is not holding the City back. What they do with the money is a much more important issue for the city - ie Schools that 🞵🞵🞵🞵, police that are corrupt, crime that doesn't get prevented or solved, bureaucracy that 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵....

[relnahe]

When I was living in Fishtown I owned my house and the combined amount of money I paid a year in prop tax + wage tax was around 2400. I'm in upstate NY right now, I don't own but many of my friends do and they pay over 3500 in prop tax a year alone. These are friends that live in the city Rochester too, not suburbs. Not only that but the public schools are as bad if not worse than the schools in the PSD. Not only that but Fishtown alone offered more restaurants and fun amenities than nearly the entirety of Rochester does for me.

[BenKatzPhillytoParis]

Originally Posted by ILovePhilly

The fact is that the total tax burden on a middle income family with a home is lower in some suburbs, higher in some suburbs, and increasingly much higher in some suburbs than in the City. And most people aren't earning the kind of money where $100,000 in city taxes becomes their concern. A person or couple making $70k would pay less than $35k over ten years. After figuring in the wage taxes one pays living in the suburbs and the differential is only 1 or 2 percent or $16K over TEN YEARS. The wage tax is not holding the City back. What they do with the money is a much more important issue for the city - ie Schools that 🞵🞵🞵🞵, police that are corrupt, crime that doesn't get prevented or solved, bureaucracy that 🞵🞵🞵🞵🞵....

I agree with most of this, just one thing about crime because I don't want to sell the city short. We have had the fewest homicides this year since 1967. Now, granted, 240 is still way too many, but this constitutes a huuuge drop in the last few years and the police have very deliberately employed more effective strategies to make this happen. There certainly are instances of corruption that arise—not surprising considering it's the 3rd largest municipal force in the country; but they're not an ineffective police department by any stretch.

[McBane]

Settle down people. I love this thread, but sometimes the self righteousness, arrogance, and bickering get very annoying.

Should everyone who posts on this thread that doesn't live in the city be expected to stand on trial and explain their reasoning? There are a million reasons why someone wouldn't/can't live in the city and I'm sorry but who are you folks to 🞵🞵🞵🞵 all over someone (that you don't even know!!!) about their decision? And to people who don't live in the city, why the need to justify it?

Seriously. Let's move on. There's a lot of great projects in the works. Can't we focus on that? Jeez.

[Londonee]

Originally Posted by ScreamShatter

I do the same thing as you, but I have to admit I completely understand why people leave the city when they start making more money and want to start a family. I def see why the upper middle class doesn't want to pay the wage tax.

Perhaps it's my limited sphere confined to the greater center city area, but in what i would not consider a small sample size...I've never heard ANYONE use the wage tax as a reason as to why they left the city. Space, backyard, personal, business, family, schools.

Originally Posted by McBane

Settle down people. I love this thread, but sometimes the self righteousness, arrogance, and bickering get very annoying.

Should everyone who posts on this thread that doesn't live in the city be expected to stand on trial and explain their reasoning? There are a million reasons why someone wouldn't/can't live in the city and I'm sorry but who are you folks to 🞵🞵🞵🞵 all over someone (that you don't even know!!!) about their decision? And to people who don't live in the city, why the need to justify it?

Seriously. Let's move on. There's a lot of great projects in the works. Can't we focus on that? Jeez.

I think the conversation has been observational and quite civil--and your post, apparently calling some of the forumers (perhaps me?) both "arrogant" and "self-righteous," actually takes the prize as the low point of the discussion. As much as we would all love to be talking about the next big development, not sure if you checked your calendar recently, but I'm willing to bet not a ton of real estate news is going to roll out over the next week or so...

[PhiLaw]

Ok so I can take like 15% of the blame for the recent suburban/urban debate.

Anyways, I've asked this before to no avail. There is a 6 or so story structure currently being constructed on Main street (or just behind it on the river) in Manayunk. Does anyone have any idea what this is? Only around 6 stories, but it's pretty prominent from the Expressway, given that it's in low-rise-laden Manayunk.

[summersm343]

New rowhomes coming to a surface parking lot at 19th and Lombard.



http://blog.philadelphiarealestate.com/rittenhouse-estates-project-ready-roll/

[McBane]

Originally Posted by Londonee

I think the conversation has been observational and quite civil--and your post, apparently calling some of the forumers (perhaps me?) both "arrogant" and "self-righteous," actually takes the prize as the low point of the discussion.

I wouldn't go so far as to call anyone here names, but the attitude that was displayed is spot on. See posts 525 and 526 - thinly veiled comments that basically said, "if you don't live in the city, why bother posting on this thread?" You don't have to live in the city to have an interest in the city's development or urban issues in general; and if you don't live in the city, it's no reason to be looked down on or bashed. Anyone should be able to follow and even post on this thread.

[MSFHQ]

Wow, went back to look at post 525 and 526. Nice guys. Gotta love it. I voice my opinion about taxes and it is dismissed as a reason to leave. Someone else posts anecdotal evidence saying taxes aren't a reason and that is strictly kosher.

I live and work in the city and have an interest in development. Yeah, NYC and London have wage taxes. I didn't realize Philly was on that level. I must have been on drugs when I've been to and go to those cities to not realize how similar Philly is to them.

As I said before, great city and cleaning up nicely. Give it another decade of building and gentrification and things will be good. And real nice guys. Not that I take what anyone says to heart, but as a transplant to the city and someone who injects a good amount of money into the area through wage tax and eating out nearly every night, I would hope that you'd show people a little more curtsey.

Oh well. Lets get back to discussing development. No need to beat a dead horse.

[ScreamShatter]

Originally Posted by MikeNigh

I am certain if the wage tax didn't exist the rents would go up atleast a few hundred a month. Also every true urban setting in america has similar or higher tax rates.

Let me give a common example. Charlotte has 0% income tax. People move just across the border to SC which has extremely low property taxes (this would be like someone working in Philly but living in Camden as it's a lake that separates Charlotte from SC). The result is very low tax burden and a very strong, fast growing middle class in that area. This is one of the many reasons why states like NC or cities like Charlotte have become places with rapid population booms.

All I'm doing is giving one example. Charlotte has a very large middle class living inside of it. Philly has a much larger working class with a smaller middle class (by comparison) than many other cities. The crime, public education, and taxes are what drive upper middle income families out of the city. It's the combination of those factors that have the impact...it's not simply one or the other causes the middle class to leave.

[Flyers2001]

Originally Posted by Londonee

Perhaps it's my limited sphere confined to the greater center city area, but in what i would not consider a small sample size...I've never heard ANYONE use the wage tax as a reason as to why they left the city. Space, backyard, personal, business, family, schools.

The wage tax probably would not be the sole reason, but it would certainly be part of the conversation for someone in my position who lives in the city (far northeast) and works outside.

As I mentioned previously, its more about what you get for what you pay. A middle class family paying wage/real estate tax living in the Northeast is getting less than the surrounding suburbs, mainly due to the failed Philadelphia School System.

In the end I understand its about personal preference and the relevance of "how much" someone is actually paying in taxes.

I agree that this conversation/debate has been cordial. If there have been inappropriate post, those should be addressed individually.

[dab]

different strokes for different folks... end of story.
(I've seen much worse attitudes towards suburbanites in the past than in this particular situation)