YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by connect2source

Air Canada's 787 new webpage!!

http://787.aircanada.com/en

Love the new interior, especially Exec First which looks a lot like Cathay's new business class, the colours of Premium Economy and Economy are very slick as well. Nice to see AC put some thought into the cabin details, a departure from the very basic looking high-density 77W's. Also very nice to see the return of the 'pod' concept, I was worried that the 787 Exec First would be the same as the high-density 77W's.

Interesting, thanks!
My only problem was, when opening their "routes" page, there was a big world map .... with no routes !! It just mentioned that Toronto-Tel Aviv would be their first sustained 787 route, as well as LHR.

[connect2source]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Interesting, thanks!
My only problem was, when opening their "routes" page, there was a big world map .... with no routes !! It just mentioned that Toronto-Tel Aviv would be their first sustained 787 route, as well as LHR.

Agreed, they need to fix that quick or delete the page.. not very slick.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by deasine

Expanding on Johnny Aussie's post, BLI and passengers willing to go to SEA are often low-yielding passengers (me myself included). And often, these destinations and trips are made for leisure and holiday purposes, further emphasizing lower yields. What YVR needs is sustained more-premium, business-oriented, or luxury-leisure-oriented traffic in order to attract more airlines to fly into YVR, because with presence of premium traffic comes potential premium profits, and it's these profits that enable and attract legacy airlines to fly into cities.

Or a transit hub similar to AMS or SIN. Let's face it -- Metro Vancouver only has a population of around 2.4 million so O&D traffic is limited.

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Or a transit hub similar to AMS or SIN. Let's face it -- Metro Vancouver only has a population of around 2.4 million so O&D traffic is limited.

Being a transit hub isn't such a bad thing.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by deasine

Expanding on Johnny Aussie's post, BLI and passengers willing to go to SEA are often low-yielding passengers (me myself included). And often, these destinations and trips are made for leisure and holiday purposes, further emphasizing lower yields. What YVR needs is sustained more-premium, business-oriented, or luxury-leisure-oriented traffic in order to attract more airlines to fly into YVR, because with presence of premium traffic comes potential premium profits, and it's these profits that enable and attract legacy airlines to fly into cities.

It is surprising the number of frequent and/or business class passengers that are voluntarily doing a one stop connection through the USA rather than take AC or foreign airline nonstop from Canada.

With most nonstop TATL services from Canada the departure time allows for one to work 1/2 day and the go to the airport. However using the one stop connection in USA the whole day is a travel day. The one stop can also be pushed over to the bean counters as cost saving measure as the one stop is a lot cheaper than nonstop services.

However most common reason for a frequent high value traveler to defect to USA based airline is to get out of the strangle hold that is Star Alliance in Canada. This is the market that Delta is hoping to tap with their new SEA-YVR service.

While the low budget flyer will go to BLI, so will the frequent traveler living in South Surrey or Langley/Abbotsford area that gets fed up with the YVR monster. Easier to drive to BLI using the Nexus card that fight traffic to YVR and fight the long lines for checkin and security.

Originally Posted by connect2source

Love the new interior, especially Exec First which looks a lot like Cathay's new business class, the colours of Premium Economy and Economy are very slick as well. Nice to see AC put some thought into the cabin details, a departure from the very basic looking high-density 77W's. Also very nice to see the return of the 'pod' concept, I was worried that the 787 Exec First would be the same as the high-density 77W's.

The 787 interior was 2-3 years in the making. The new 77W in high density seating was a distraction for the team. The interior team had to take time away from the 787 interior to get out the 77W product. The 5 new 77W are bought at ridiculously low prices as compensation for 788 delays and the deal came up rather suddenly with insufficient time to secure a new J seat and introduce PE cabin. The economics of the sardine can economy seating are too enticing to pass up. Besides there are very few complaints from travelers because most frequent travelers are getting to PE product.

Here is a little tid bit for you. The 787 seating will be retrofitted into the 77W and 77L. With 10 abreast the standard for economy section. Only the 333 will retain the original XM interior configuration. But the 333s will be out of the fleet by 2015; replaced by 789s on a 1:1 basis.

Finally if PE takes off, AC can expand this cabin by taking out Y seats. THe only limitation is J cabin its struck between doors 1 and 2 and cannot be expanded without an incredible increase in seating (e.g the J cabin cannot be expanded by less than 12 seats and would take up the majority of the PE cabin in this configuration.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Cage

It is surprising the number of frequent and/or business class passengers that are voluntarily doing a one stop connection through the USA rather than take AC or foreign airline nonstop from Canada.

However most common reason for a frequent high value traveler to defect to USA based airline is to get out of the strangle hold that is Star Alliance in Canada. This is the market that Delta is hoping to tap with their new SEA-YVR service.

On your first point, that is actually good to hear. It indicates there is a decent premium market from YVR as most airlines seem to be doing quite "ok" on the premium side of the non-stop int'l flights. So if YVR and the airlines market themselves well enough they should be able to grab more of this $$$ market.

As to your other point I highlighted.

FRA and PEK and seasonal MUC are the only exclusive Star Alliance routes to Europe and Asia ex YVR.
One World can get you to LHR in Europe and HKG and NRT in Asia.
Sky Team can get you to AMS in Europe and ICN, PVG, CAN and TPE in Asia.
So plenty of options outside of Star Alliance.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by connect2source

Air Canada's 787 new webpage!!

http://787.aircanada.com/en

Love the new interior, especially Exec First which looks a lot like Cathay's new business class, the colours of Premium Economy and Economy are very slick as well. Nice to see AC put some thought into the cabin details, a departure from the very basic looking high-density 77W's. Also very nice to see the return of the 'pod' concept, I was worried that the 787 Exec First would be the same as the high-density 77W's.

My first experience in the 787 was really good!

I just skimmed through some of Air Canada's comments over the last few weeks and I cannot believe I missed this:

"Air Canada will base its training facility for the Dreamliner maintenance engineers in Vancouver, which will create “some incremental employment” in the city. The airline currently employs close to 4,400 people in Vancouver, including 121 who were hired this year." - source Vancouver Sun 8 November

[connect2source]

Originally Posted by Cage

Here is a little tid bit for you. The 787 seating will be retrofitted into the 77W and 77L. With 10 abreast the standard for economy section. Only the 333 will retain the original XM interior configuration. But the 333s will be out of the fleet by 2015; replaced by 789s on a 1:1 basis.

Finally if PE takes off, AC can expand this cabin by taking out Y seats. THe only limitation is J cabin its struck between doors 1 and 2 and cannot be expanded without an incredible increase in seating (e.g the J cabin cannot be expanded by less than 12 seats and would take up the majority of the PE cabin in this configuration.

Fantastic insight thanks!!

I guessed that all the 777's would be converted to high density, it's standard for Emirates, Air France, KLM and now American is beginning the high density thing and Air New Zealand is converting their remaining 772's. Seems like the 787 will be my airplane of choice when flying AC as they seem to be creating a premium product out of it.

[casper]

Originally Posted by connect2source

Fantastic insight thanks!!

I guessed that all the 777's would be converted to high density, it's standard for Emirates, Air France, KLM and now American is beginning the high density thing and Air New Zealand is converting their remaining 772's. Seems like the 787 will be my airplane of choice when flying AC as they seem to be creating a premium product out of it.

The 787 layout looks nice: http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/fleet/788.html

[connect2source]

Edit :

Looks just great.. and great to see it added to the fleet-page already.. make me wonder when they're going to finally remove the picture of the 'shark-fin concept' 787 .. from the 'new fleet' page!

http://www.aircanada.com/en/about/media/facts/documents/AC_787.jpg

Also just noticed.. did Air Canada just do away with the Executive First name, I see only International Business Class titles on the fleet descriptions now? .. and Business Class for domestic.

[deasine]

I believe the seats are actually the same manufacturer as Qatar as opposed to the Cathay/AA/US seat manufacturer due to the angle of the IFE screens and positioning of the tray table. And if that's the case, that means the seat is even larger/wider than the CX configuration.

[Cage]

Originally Posted by connect2source

Also just noticed.. did Air Canada just do away with the Executive First name, I see only International Business Class titles on the fleet descriptions now? .. and Business Class for domestic.

Yes confirmed on flyer talk with AC rep the Executive First brand had been retired and replaced with International Business Class. Narrow body Executive Class is replaced with Business Class.

[trofirhen]

Another sign of the times? Especially in reference to Delta, Seattle, and YVR.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1620570

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by trofirhen

Another sign of the times? Especially in reference to Delta, Seattle, and YVR.

http://www.digitaljournal.com/pr/1620570

So funny... and a sign of what times?

"By next summer, customers will have ONE-STOP service to the top five cities in Asia as well as the top three European markets."

So clever!

Hmmmm.... How about NON-STOP from YVR to all of those destinations.... plus more!

I think they're going to have to come up with something just a tad stronger than that.

They might want to do a little bit of homework before making such lame statements.

[Hourglass]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

So funny... and a sign of what times?

"By next summer, customers will have ONE-STOP service to the top five cities in Asia as well as the top three European markets."

So clever!

Hmmmm.... How about NON-STOP from YVR to all of those destinations.... plus more!

I think they're going to have to come up with something just a tad stronger than that.

They might want to do a little bit of homework before making such lame statements.

Yes. The problem is when these one-stop flights end up being a few hundred dollars cheaper than AC's non-stop flights. I seem to remember raising a red flag about the threat that Delta's build-up at SEA represents to YVR several pages back. 4x daily jet service between YVR and SEA isn't exactly doing anything to persuade me I'm wrong.

AC should be doing more in YVR of what they say they're going to do in YYZ ie connections and feeder flights to support their transpacific business. Maybe the new 787s will help open up some new route opportunities too.

[connect2source]

Originally Posted by Cage

Yes confirmed on flyer talk with AC rep the Executive First brand had been retired and replaced with International Business Class. Narrow body Executive Class is replaced with Business Class.

Seems they could have come up with something slightly less generic, even United has chosen UnitedBusiness and BusinessFirst.. Air Canada should seriously consider some sort of 'branding' for these classes. Most global carriers have interesting branded names such as BA's Club World, VS's UpperClass and JAL's Seasons.

Also noticed Executive Pod ( 787 ) Classic Pod ( original Pods ) and Studio Pods ( HD 777's ) in regards to seating descriptions for International Business.

[casper]

Originally Posted by Hourglass

Yes. The problem is when these one-stop flights end up being a few hundred dollars cheaper than AC's non-stop flights. I seem to remember raising a red flag about the threat that Delta's build-up at SEA represents to YVR several pages back. 4x daily jet service between YVR and SEA isn't exactly doing anything to persuade me I'm wrong.

AC should be doing more in YVR of what they say they're going to do in YYZ ie connections and feeder flights to support their transpacific business. Maybe the new 787s will help open up some new route opportunities too.

Both airlines price their tickets using yield management systems.

Today in many cases it is cheaper from the US to fly from the US to Europe or Asia on Air Canada. It is also usually cheaper from Canada to fly to Europe or Asia on the US airlines. Air Canada and Delta will find ways of filling these aircraft.

Another aspect to consider is Tokyo. In the old Northwest days nearly all NWA Asian bound flights from across the US stopped in Tokyo and that was the main transfer hub. Is this a shift to Seattle being the transfer hub instead of Narita?

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by casper

Both airlines price their tickets using yield management systems.

Today in many cases it is cheaper from the US to fly from the US to Europe or Asia on Air Canada. It is also usually cheaper from Canada to fly to Europe or Asia on the US airlines. Air Canada and Delta will find ways of filling these aircraft.

Another aspect to consider is Tokyo. In the old Northwest days nearly all NWA Asian bound flights from across the US stopped in Tokyo and that was the main transfer hub. Is this a shift to Seattle being the transfer hub instead of Narita?

And that was my main point.

To make a one-stop vs a non-stop more attractive they're going to have to do more than make statements like that one. They will have to price the via SEA flights enough to pull passengers off the non-stops. It's not like Sky Team doesn't already have many decent Asia non-stop flights either plus AMS to Europe. The challenge for Delta would be easier if YVR didn't have all these established direct flights.

As I've said before, the "threats" of BLI and SEA are nothing new. This is another development that YVR (and Air Canada) will have to deal with in the never ending challenges of aviation.

[nname]

Not sure about the others, but I'd rather pay $150-$200 more, and not having to turn my 12 hours flight into an 18 hours journey, plus the hassle going through US custom.

I remembered taking the BR SEA-TPE flights a couple of times to save maybe $150, but we just decided that its not worth it..

[Gordon]

We are starting to see a depreciation in the Canadian dollar. It could drop to 88cents or lower. this will certainly take a bite out of Sea & BlI's cost advantage over yvr. If it drops close to 80 cents that would make a much more level playing field.