YVR Airport & Sea Island Developments Discussion

[teriyaki]

Originally Posted by Gordon

I think yvr is fairly cost competitive wi Seattle on Asian Flights

I agree. We have many PRC carriers that want to feed you through their hubs that prices have been kept relatively low (provided you're willing to fly on a PRC carrier).

So far, the prices from SEA have not been good enough to warrant the drive down as i'll gladly pay slight premium to fly in and out of my home airport.

However, with that said. Delta could be smart and aggresively poach flyers from Vancouver by tagging the YVR-SEA flight as a loss-leader for those that book connections in SEA to Asia flights to bolster their hub launch. Create awareness and add some market disturbance. AC does this with their LGA-YYZ-LHR flights where its cheaper to fly from New York with a connection in YYZ to London. Delta could theoretically capture quite some attention with cheap flights YVR-SEA-Asia.

[theKB]

It would be great to see a few low cost options for YVR-SEA much like there are for Toronto/NYC although population is a huge factor in the options they have over there.

The ultimate Vancouver - Seattle connection would naturally be downtown sea plane to seattle downtown however for business/tourism.

[Hot Rod]

I'm surprised it isnt already done, doesn't Victoria do this?

[theKB]

Originally Posted by Hot Rod

I'm surprised it isnt already done, doesn't Victoria do this?

Victoria - Seattle is quite common but nothing from here. Helijet operated a connecting service via Victoria but I don't think it was very successful. I just wonder if there are logistical issues (customs etc) or there just isn't the demand or the population to merit it.

The obvious best option for a fast trip to seattle is high speed rail but I don't think that will ever happen especially with the current routing.

[moosejaw]

Originally Posted by theKB

Victoria - Seattle is quite common but nothing from here. Helijet operated a connecting service via Victoria but I don't think it was very successful. I just wonder if there are logistical issues (customs etc) or there just isn't the demand or the population to merit it.

The obvious best option for a fast trip to seattle is high speed rail but I don't think that will ever happen especially with the current routing.

Your wish may happen......may happen. the route has been designated as a high speed rail corridor since the late 90s. WA state has figured out to upgrade the line to accommodate high speed rail but it will need a lot of money to upgrade the line through the cascades. The goal is to have trains hit 110 mph with a two and half hour ride from king street to pacific blvd.

The proposed high speed rail will extend down to portland.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by stiffdeadman

nice to see a transborder addition for once rather then the subtractions of the last few years.

What subtractions are you referring to?

I just went back to 2009 - 2014 and I don't see any subtractions per se... there has been a bit of fluctuation though.

This is summer only comparisons and not including CX, PR or AC to Hawaii.

2009 ~ 72 daily flights
2010 ~ 74 daily flights
2011 ~ 71 daily flights
2012 ~ 72 daily flights
2013 ~ 74 daily flights
2014 ~ 78 daily flights (estimated as of now - note AA still showing only 2 daily but that usually increases to the normal 3 when they update in early 2014)

In comparison YYC has hovered around 46 -49 and YEG around 18 -19 during the same timeframe.

[Johnny Aussie]

And not a peep, tweet, murmur or anything from YVR.

I cannot remember the last time any airline launched any route with 5 daily flights. Seats wise that's 760 return seats per day. To not even mention this? Seems rather apathetic.

Most other airports in Canada would be having press conferences, cakes, fireworks and parades!

[theKB]

Originally Posted by moosejaw

Your wish may happen......may happen. the route has been designated as a high speed rail corridor since the late 90s. WA state has figured out to upgrade the line to accommodate high speed rail but it will need a lot of money to upgrade the line through the cascades. The goal is to have trains hit 110 mph with a two and half hour ride from king street to pacific blvd.

The proposed high speed rail will extend down to portland.

I would be surprised if it happened but would be happy if it did! I am actually slightly surprised that there is no schedule seaplane service from coal harbour to seattle. Unless you are connecting YVR-SEA is just not worth the time with all the security crap and how early you have to arrive, also SEA to downtown is a bit of a distance although better now that they have put in a rail link.

[deasine]

Originally Posted by theKB

I would be surprised if it happened but would be happy if it did! I am actually slightly surprised that there is no schedule seaplane service from coal harbour to seattle.

Answer: complications with customs. There needs to be separate infrastructure built to handle these flights and the companies operating the route would need to convince CBSA and USCBP to set up services, which would likely entail the companies paying CBSA and USCBP. I can't imagine there be any profits made under such regulations.

[stiffdeadman]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

What subtractions are you referring to?

I just went back to 2009 - 2014 and I don't see any subtractions per se... there has been a bit of fluctuation though.

This is summer only comparisons and not including CX, PR or AC to Hawaii.

2009 ~ 72 daily flights
2010 ~ 74 daily flights
2011 ~ 71 daily flights
2012 ~ 72 daily flights
2013 ~ 74 daily flights
2014 ~ 78 daily flights (estimated as of now - note AA still showing only 2 daily but that usually increases to the normal 3 when they update in early 2014)

In comparison YYC has hovered around 46 -49 and YEG around 18 -19 during the same timeframe.

referring to actual american carriers adding service rather then subtracting. pretty much all the us carriers have cut service to yvr in the last few years other then united. alaska used to have sfo, las, san. american tried ord for one summer. us airways had las, and phl for one summer. before the merger northwest had 5 daily to msp, daily to dtw, saturday to mem. frontier was here and pulled out and now is at bli.

[trofirhen]

I'm anticipating more than anything else, the possible customs-free transfer area for potential Asian flights going through to South America.
If this comes about (and it seems quite possible now), it may be the biggest thing that has happened to YVR since the new terminal was built.
Flights to South America would be something almost no other city on the West Coast has.
This would be a paradigm shift for the whole airport, and would, I am sure, bump it up from just being a focus city to being en route to a hub.
(or a "stub" as Mr. Rovinescu likes to call it)

[MalcolmTucker]

Is there really a strategic advantage over Los Angeles for that connecting traffic? Especially without origin and destination to anchor the South American legs?

[moosejaw]

I have to wonder if places like Cuba and Venezuela are no go places for US Flights and Airports bc of political affiliations. Which may explain why YVR can fill in the void. You also have to consider that Chile and Bolivia as well which does a lot of trade with China also aligns itself with VZ and Cuba. BC of bitterness between the US and both of those countries, vancouver can align itself to see more latin american flights.

Panama's airport is also a gateway to Latin America. Not aware of any asian airlines flying there?

[theKB]

Originally Posted by deasine

Answer: complications with customs. There needs to be separate infrastructure built to handle these flights and the companies operating the route would need to convince CBSA and USCBP to set up services, which would likely entail the companies paying CBSA and USCBP. I can't imagine there be any profits made under such regulations.

I figured as much although victoria has scheduled service but I am sure those logistics tie into the boat/cruise/ferry traffic.

[Hot Rod]

Ya, how does Victoria have scheduled service downtown to downtown on air and ferry to sea with less population but Van doesn't? I can't recall significant customs on the few times I took the vic clipper and does SLU aerodrome in sea have customs?

I think this is an interesting question as i think the population is there. Or is driving just that much easier or the fact that Canadians wouldn't have a way to get around after arriving in our far less transit oriented region?

[trofirhen]

Originally Posted by MalcolmTucker

Is there really a strategic advantage over Los Angeles for that connecting traffic? Especially without origin and destination to anchor the South American legs?

I think that the Polar Route is shorter, whereas going further south, to LA, would be a longer (and more fuel-consuming) flight
What would a flight in this overall scheme need ... in order to be and O/D flight?
{Apparently the mining industries are a major draw on the South America routes, and would account for the justifiable business traffic in that regard.}

[Cage]

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

What subtractions are you referring to?

I just went back to 2009 - 2014 and I don't see any subtractions per se... there has been a bit of fluctuation though.

Your have to go back further than 2009 to see the subtractions. IIRC AS had 30 flights in the summer season back in 2001-2003 time frame. This included 18 QX flights. AS also had PDX, SFO, LAX, and SAN. ANC came later after the AS services were reduced due to the increase competition from BLI.

Air BC and Canadian Regional Also had services to SEA that number about 18 between the two Canadian operators. Even UAX gave SEA-YVR a try.

Originally Posted by Johnny Aussie

And not a peep, tweet, murmur or anything from YVR.

This DL service is primarily to get YVR destined people to connect in SEA rather than use one of the other YVR non stops. The DL SEA service also competes for TPAC and TATL flights. This is in my opinion a proper response by the Airport Auth to a service meant to syphon off lucrative pax.

[Johnny Aussie]

Originally Posted by Cage

Your have to go back further than 2009 to see the subtractions. IIRC AS had 30 flights in the summer season back in 2001-2003 time frame. This included 18 QX flights. AS also had PDX, SFO, LAX, and SAN. ANC came later after the AS services were reduced due to the increase competition from BLI.

Air BC and Canadian Regional Also had services to SEA that number about 18 between the two Canadian operators. Even UAX gave SEA-YVR a try.



This DL service is primarily to get YVR destined people to connect in SEA rather than use one of the other YVR non stops. The DL SEA service also competes for TPAC and TATL flights. This is in my opinion a proper response by the Airport Auth to a service meant to syphon off lucrative pax.

Fair enough. I just went back a few years. I suppose I could have gone back 15 years and include TWA to STL and DL to CVG and Reno Air to RNO. Etc. I realise a lot of routes have come and gone.
Back in 2002/2003 there were approx 3.8M transborder passengers. This peaked in 2008 with about 4.3M passengers. In 2013 transborder should finish off close to 4.3M as well. So yes despite some reductions, passenger numbers didn't fall off and have been gradually recovering quite well.

And yeah the BLI factor... Been an influence since the 1980s somehow YVR is holding its own. Obviously YVR would have even more transborder pax if it weren't for BLI and SEA so close.

Not so sure if DL are going to be siphoning too many "lucrative" pax. The higher yielding pax would still prefer nonstop and most likely pay a premium for it. What they certainly might be stealing are some of the lower yielding pax. Prices are going to have to drop pretty low as right now there some amazing deals to Asia especially with all the new capacity. Let's see how low they will go!

Maybe YVR will have to start an anti-SEA campaign! I am jesting... slightly!

[deasine]

Well the reduction in services to many of these cities is a direct result of the changing trends, values, and economic realities in the aviation industry. Not just Vancouver, but many cities throughout the world had significantly more flights, notably Osaka. But look at the realities today, Osaka is insignificant in the Asia market now. The reduction of service to many American cities reflects the hubbing concept to bring economies of scale. AS service to SAN and SFO makes no sense given these cities aren't hubs of AS, nor is YVR one either.

Expanding on Johnny Aussie's post, BLI and passengers willing to go to SEA are often low-yielding passengers (me myself included). And often, these destinations and trips are made for leisure and holiday purposes, further emphasizing lower yields. What YVR needs is sustained more-premium, business-oriented, or luxury-leisure-oriented traffic in order to attract more airlines to fly into YVR, because with presence of premium traffic comes potential premium profits, and it's these profits that enable and attract legacy airlines to fly into cities.

[connect2source]

Air Canada's 787 new webpage!!

http://787.aircanada.com/en

Love the new interior, especially Exec First which looks a lot like Cathay's new business class, the colours of Premium Economy and Economy are very slick as well. Nice to see AC put some thought into the cabin details, a departure from the very basic looking high-density 77W's. Also very nice to see the return of the 'pod' concept, I was worried that the 787 Exec First would be the same as the high-density 77W's.