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  #961  
Old Posted Sep 5, 2013, 12:57 AM
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New interprovincial bridge needed for regional growth and vital to downtown development

Too many trucks on Rideau Street, say neighbourhood representatives

By Derek Spalding, OTTAWA CITIZEN September 4, 2013 8:00 PM


JUST BUILD IT ALREADY: A CITIZEN SERIES: Ottawa’s never been short on big ideas, but we always seem to fall short when it comes to making them happen. In this series, the Citizen’s City Hall bureau checks in on some of the apparently good ideas that still haven’t made it off the drawing board.

Interprovincial Bridge

The idea: Build a new interprovincial bridge between Aviation Parkway in Ottawa and Montée Paiement in Quebec

The cost: $1.16 billion

The problem: Lack of political support and fierce opposition from communities that back onto the Aviation Parkway.

The status: The Ontario government walked away from the latest attempt just as the joint study group was about to move ahead with detailed design plans for a new bridge.


OTTAWA — The need for another interprovincial bridge linking Ottawa and Gatineau plays out every day on the downtown streets of the nation’s capital.

A steady stream of southbound eighteen-wheelers rolls off the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge onto King Edward Avenue before turning on to Rideau Street bound for Hwy. 417. Loads of drywall, plastic tubing and a host of other materials are mere centimetres from the sidewalks and just metres from storefronts.



Until June, there had been a plan eight years in the making to possibly eliminate truck traffic that uses the bridge as a highway connection by building a new bridge farther east, crossing the Ottawa River at Kettle Island, but the joint project headed by the provinces of Ontario and Quebec and the National Capital Commission was abruptly killed this summer.

Building a bridge between the northern portion of the Aviation Parkway in Ottawa and Montée Paiement in Gatineau was designed to reduce truck traffic in Lowertown and position the region for anticipated growth. Instead, in one unilateral decision by Ontario Transportation Minister Glen Murray, the plan died when he announced Ontario would no longer support the proposed Kettle Island corridor.

In the wake of that decision, groups in downtown Ottawa and some city councillors are left baffled how to resurrect the plan and solve their ongoing problem.

“It’s madness that a G8 capital can be the only (major) North American city that doesn’t have a bypass route,” said Josh Moon, a lawyer who, on behalf of the Rideau Business Improvement Association, asked Murray’s office why the bridge plan was cancelled.

The response was a 300-word email that did not answer the question in any meaningful way. But, for Moon, the latest joint study clearly shows the need for a new crossing. The detailed report on transportation indicates the Macdonald-Cartier and Chaudière bridges carry an estimated 3,700 truck trips per day, with that figure expected to reach 5,800 by 2031. At that point, the Macdonald-Cartier alone would see about 4,200 trips per day.

That level of heavy-duty traffic is far too dangerous for pedestrians and it dampens the potential for economic development in the area, says Moon and others living and working near Rideau Street.

Accident statistics from Ottawa police show that 446 collisions, including two fatalities, were recorded between 2008 and 2012 on King Edward Avenue along the stretch of road between the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge and the intersection of Rideau Street. The route truck drivers take to get to the highway has been altered over the years, but the problems persist, explained Moon, a former chairman of the Rideau BIA.

“You can tinker with that route all you want, but it’s still moving a massive amount of goods through a city,” he said.

But even armed with the statistics and studies, there seems to be a lack of political will, at least on the Ontario side, to build a new bridge. Yet, the only way it will move ahead is with broad support from two cities, two provincial governments and the federal government, said Rideau-Vanier ward Coun. Mathieu Fleury. So far, however, he can’t get much support even from his own council.

When the NCC announced plans for the Kettle Island option, several councillors opposed the project, including Mayor Jim Watson, who at the time said any new federal and provincial money should be spent on light-rail transit.

Madeleine Meilleur, MPP for Ottawa-Vanier, vowed to urge her Liberal government not to fund the project because of its proximity to neighbourhoods in her riding. She was on hand to celebrate when Murray made his announcement.

The minister said Ontario would not support the Kettle Island option because it does not address the problem of truck and commercial traffic in Ottawa’s downtown and is a break from traditional master planning. But the joint study he killed shows that a new bridge, coupled with truck restrictions on Macdonald-Cartier, would reduce truck traffic even as regional traffic numbers grew.

Murray did not respond to requests for interviews regarding the province’s plans now that the bridge project has been cancelled.

But the truck traffic problem in Lowertown is just one reason for building a new crossing. Several studies over the past few decades, including two reports produced in the 1990s, have shown the need for another bridge on Kettle Island to accommodate increasing interprovincial travel.

The first was released in 1994, identifying Kettle Island as the best location for a bridge. The eight-year transportation analysis started in the 1980s and was conducted by a team of representatives from various levels of government, including pre-amalgamation City of Ottawa, Gatineau, the NCC and the former Ottawa-Carleton regional government.

That report looked at the existing capacity of the bridges and determined that no matter how much additional transit was put in operation, there still needed to be more crossings for regular vehicle traffic.

“Some people say we don’t need one. (They say) we could use transit to accommodate the demand for the foreseeable future by increasing transit share,” said Arto Keklikian, a senior transportation planner with the NCC. “These studies show that based on the land-use scenarios there would still be at least two lanes required in addition to all the maximum transit you could use.”

Fleury has since asked for a meeting with Murray to discuss how the interprovincial truck route along King Edward interferes with the city’s plans of increasing density in the downtown.

“The sooner the better in terms of process, but what that process is up to the province,” Fleury said about the lack of response from the minister. “I’m putting the pressure on them to let us know what that (process) is. Whether that means a bridge or whether it’s a tunnel, I’m not getting into that game. It’s their problem; we live it, but it’s their problem.”

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http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/interp...growth+vital+downtown/8870153/story.html
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  #962  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2013, 1:29 AM
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Rumour is that funding for the truck tunnel study will be announced jointly by the City and Province tomorrow. Press conference at 2:30 tomorrow.
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  #963  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2013, 1:49 AM
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Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
Rumour is that funding for the truck tunnel study will be announced jointly by the City and Province tomorrow. Press conference at 2:30 tomorrow.
Studies are cheap; I'm looking forward to Toronto's response when we ask for funding to actually build it! Same goes for that billion for transit.
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  #964  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2013, 8:05 PM
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  #965  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2013, 8:05 PM
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Glad this idea is back on the table. Of course, this tunnel will only work if it is connected to existing truck routes. There will need to be access from Rideau Street which is the main East-West truck route in the area. Not all truck traffic runs from the M-D bridge to the 417 -- some of it will be coming from Rideau Street (e.g. local delivery trucks with multiple Ottawa and Gatineau stops -- think Loblaws or Metro).

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Originally Posted by waterloowarrior View Post
Rumour is that funding for the truck tunnel study will be announced jointly by the City and Province tomorrow. Press conference at 2:30 tomorrow.
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  #966  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2013, 8:23 PM
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Another thing...

Apart from connecting to Rideau, the truck tunnel may also need to connect to Laurier and/or Slater and Albert through a new crossing (maybe the Mackenzie bridge could serve this purpose or the Laurier bridge, but my guess is that some folks would probably want to tunnel trucks under the canal too).
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  #967  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2013, 8:42 PM
YOWetal YOWetal is offline
 
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If this is an Ottawa only, truck only toll tunnel it would need to be $50 or more based on 2-3000 trucks per day. This would require the banning of trucks on all other approaches and even that would lead to alternate routes and shipping in smaller batches etc.

I suspect that the point is to get this study done and then present to Gatineau and Fed/Provs the idea of improving the infrastructure on both sides to increase capacity in lieu of a new bridge.
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  #968  
Old Posted Nov 29, 2013, 10:52 PM
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Ontario joins City to study tunnel to divert heavy truck traffic
http://ottawa.ca/en/news/ontario-joins-city-study-tunnel-divert-heavy-truck-traffic
November 29, 2013
News Release
Ottawa – The Government of Ontario will jointly fund a study for a possible tunnel to address the problem of heavy inter-provincial truck traffic in downtown Ottawa. Currently, 2,600 trucks travel daily through Lowertown and Sandy Hill streets such as King Edward Avenue.

“We want to have strong transportation links between Ontario and Quebec but not at the expense of our nation’s capital,” said Ontario Transportation Minister Glen Murray. “We are working with the City of Ottawa to investigate a possible solution to the issue of heavy truck traffic downtown.”

“I am committed to helping find a real, sustainable solution to the heavy truck problem in downtown Ottawa” said Madeleine Meilleur, MPP for Ottawa-Vanier. “I’m glad the provincial government is joining the city to work toward that goal. The proposed tunnel could be the solution we’re looking for, as it eliminates non-local trucks from the core of the city and King Edward Ave. This study will be an important step in the process that will help the city make the best possible decision.''

“We want to give the truck tunnel option a fresh look because this isn’t a problem that is going to solve itself,” said Mayor Jim Watson. “We are pleased that the Ontario government will collaborate with the City to investigate a potential solution that would significantly improve the liveability of great neighbourhoods like Lowertown and Sandy Hill.”

Earlier this week, City of Ottawa’s Transportation Master Plan (TMP) – the blueprint for transportation investments throughout the City over the next 20 years — was unanimously approved by Council.

As part of the TMP discussions, Rideau-Vanier Councillor Mathieu Fleury brought forward a motion, which was also strongly supported by Transportation Committee and Council, to initiate a feasibility study for a downtown tunnel that would establish an alternate connection between Highway 417 and the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge for trucks and vehicles that travel through the downtown area without stopping.

The Province has agreed to cost-share this focused feasibility study, on the understanding that the City will initiate and lead it in collaboration with the Ontario Ministry of Transportation.

“I am thrilled that we are making this step forward towards a solution with the Government of Ontario. The people of Lowertown and Sandy Hill have lived with trucks barrelling through their neighbourhoods in growing numbers for too many years, and we need to ensure that we are looking for solutions from all angles” said Councillor Fleury.

This study is important, as it approaches the issue of truck traffic through Ottawa’s downtown core by maximizing the use of existing infrastructure, and will provide a clear answer as to the technical feasibility of a tunnel option. Truck traffic in the King Edward/Macdonald-Cartier Bridge corridor is growing at about two to three per cent a year.

The tunnel option has been discussed in the past but dismissed without the benefit of in-depth technical analysis, or examined based on certain assumptions which may no longer be valid. For example, previous interprovincial crossing studies focused on the need to provide additional car capacity through this corridor. However, as the National Capital Region continues to emphasize investments in public transit and alternate transportation modes, providing additional car capacity becomes a lesser priority.

This technical study will cost approximately $750,000 and take approximately 12 months to complete. If the study determines that such a project is feasible, there would be a subsequent environmental assessment study that would include extensive public consultation.



Study will evaluate feasibility of tunnel between bridge and Hwy. 417
Ottawa – The study of a possible solution to heavy traffic in downtown Ottawa will investigate the technical feasibility of connecting the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge and Highway 417 with a tunnel, with the primary goal of removing large trucks from downtown streets.

Each weekday there is heavy inter-provincial truck traffic between Ottawa and Gatineau, about 3,750 trucks daily, 2,600 of which are using the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge and go through the communities of Lowertown and Sandy Hill to reach Hwy. 417.

There will be two parts to the study of a tunnel alternative:

Phase One: The first part of the study will assess the technical feasibility of constructing a tunnel and its portals; impacts of portals on adjacent land use, transportation facilities and buildings; ventilation requirements and impacts; potential conflicts with existing utilities and the Confederation Line; geotechnical analysis; the feasibility of using the tunnel by trucks carrying dangerous goods; other relevant tunnelling issues, and construction costs.

Phase Two: If a tunnel solution is deemed technically feasible based on the analysis completed in Phase One, the second phase will go into more depth, and look at issues such as the likely utilization of the tunnel by long-distance trucks and cars; potential community impacts; as well as the potential for repurposing surface streets.

There are a number of examples of tunnels built or planned in North America. These include:

Seattle’s Alaskan Way Viaduct — a double-decker highway tunnel (for Highway 99) beneath its downtown (under construction)
The Port of Miami Tunnel project that includes twin tunnels connecting S.R. A1A/MacArthur Causeway and PortMiami (under construction)
The Deck Park Tunnel just north of downtown Phoenix. Also known as the Papago Freeway Tunnel Project, this is an underground stretch of Interstate 10, completed in August of 1990.
Although the Ottawa study will look at the potential of diverting traffic from surface streets, the objective of this project is to remove long distance trucks from the surface streets and not to accommodate the potential growth of interprovincial car travel. This is keeping in line with the emphasis on investing in public transit that was part of the recently unanimously approved Transportation Master Plan.

The study will be carried out by an engineering consulting firm with expertise in transportation and tunnelling. The estimated study cost is $750,000.

If the study determines that such a project is feasible, there would be a subsequent environmental assessment study that would include extensive public consultation.

The graphic below provides a visual representation of the study area, including some of the potential portal locations for the entrance and exits to the tunnel.

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  #969  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2013, 12:53 AM
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It's about time the truck tunnel option got onto the agenda.

Too bad no one thought of it earlier so it could be planned in concert with the LRT tunnel, which might now be in a positioning conflict for routes and portals (and in turn the truck tunnel has the potential of creating a problem for integrating an LRT line from Gatineau into the Confederation line).

Oh, wait, someone did... four years ago:

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=175699
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  #970  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2013, 3:35 AM
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Province pledges $375,000 to study truck tunnel under Sandy Hill, ByWard Market, Lowertown

By David Reevely, OTTAWA CITIZEN November 29, 2013 7:53 PM


OTTAWA — Three days after city council voted to ask the provincial government to pay half the cost of a study to see whether a truck tunnel could be built under Sandy Hill and Lowertown, Transportation Minister Glen Murray showed up Friday at City Hall with $375,000.

The idea is to hide the trucks that ply Nicholas and Rideau streets and King Edward Avenue, moving between Highway 417 and Quebec. A new east-end bridge was supposed to be a partial solution, but local opposition killed that idea last summer. The idea of a tunnel that mimics the current route has been rejected as a costly absurdity, but nobody has ever studied it seriously.

“It’s a very interesting idea and one that’s been passed over, but deserves a second look,” Mayor Jim Watson said.

And Murray agreed: “We don’t spend that kind of money unless we’re serious,” the minister said.

The $750,000 study is expected to take between a year and 15 months, deputy city manager Nancy Schepers said, and it’ll be led by the city. The most preliminary thinking imagines either a tunnel that begins where Highway 417 meets King Edward and goes underneath King Edward all the way north to the Macdonald-Cartier Bridge, or a couple of more westerly variations that let trucks stay on the surface on the long Nicholas Street ramp but put them in a tunnel starting at Laurier Avenue and proceeding more or less under the ByWard Market.

Watson has suggested the tunnel could be paid for over time by charging tolls but that’s a decision to come much later, assuming the feasibility study concludes it can be built.

That, along with the rest of the city’s newly approved master transportation plan, fits exactly with the province’s ideas about paying for major new transportation projects, Murray said.

“It meets all of the requirements, in fact exceeds the planning requirements in infrastructure for provincial funding, and we’ve come up with two proposed solutions that expand the transit system, which the mayor and council have endorsed, and more specifically infrastructure that opens up options for public-private partnerships and new funding models to actually provide new revenue sources for the City of Ottawa that can cover expenses without the wallets of taxpayers,” Murray said.

Ottawa-Vanier MP Mauril Bélanger is an opposition politician and in no position to provide any money — he showed up at the City Hall announcement and joked that he was a wedding crasher — but he vowed to push the federal government to help pay for the tunnel if one turns out to be feasible.

The idea of the tunnel was inserted into the city’s transportation master plan thanks to a motion from Lowertown’s councillor, Mathieu Fleury, but Watson has been talking about it for months with Murray and Ottawa-Vanier MPP Madeleine Meilleur, he said.

A tunnel has always been assumed to be excessively expensive but the aborted study that was leading toward building a new Ottawa River bridge at Kettle Island to track trucks out of downtown had estimates the cost of the bridge at about $1.1 billion, counting all the land that would have to be bought and roadwork that would have to be done on land to build approaches on each bank. If the cost of a tunnel is anywhere close to that, its price might seem reasonable in comparison.

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http://www.ottawacitizen.com/news/Provin...der+Sandy+Hill+Market/9229157/story.html
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  #971  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2013, 1:39 PM
sonysnob sonysnob is offline
 
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This is the right solution, finally. If it were me, I'd build a four lane tunnel for all through traffic and potentially even toll it for a couple of dollars to offset the high expense of building it. The connection between A-5 and the 417 serves through traffic in addition to local, and was always supposed to be directly connected to Hwy 417 when the bridge was built in the 60s. The east end of Ottawa isn't benefiting from having through traffic mix with local traffic on local streets.
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  #972  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2013, 4:51 PM
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I suspect the Nicholas portal option might be challenging as it crosses the ORT line/portal. Too bad because it would otherwise be a much shorter and cheaper option. then again, many cities have multiple subways and tunnels crossing each other so it might not be a problem at all.
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  #973  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2013, 5:06 PM
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Originally Posted by sonysnob View Post
This is the right solution, finally. If it were me, I'd build a four lane tunnel for all through traffic and potentially even toll it for a couple of dollars to offset the high expense of building it. The connection between A-5 and the 417 serves through traffic in addition to local, and was always supposed to be directly connected to Hwy 417 when the bridge was built in the 60s. The east end of Ottawa isn't benefiting from having through traffic mix with local traffic on local streets.
It's very short-sighted of council to propose a truck-only tunnel. They never seem to learn. Spend more now, save a lot more in the future.

I'm also not pleased to see it come back to grade south of Murray/St. Patrick. A single right lane exit/entrance for each N and S for local could come up to connect with Murray.
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  #974  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2013, 7:45 PM
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It's very short-sighted of council to propose a truck-only tunnel. They never seem to learn. Spend more now, save a lot more in the future.
No:

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Originally Posted by Aylmer View Post

White elephants were regarded as holy in ancient times in Thailand and other Asian countries. Keeping a white elephant was a very expensive undertaking, since the owner had to provide the elephant with special food and provide access for people who wanted to worship it. If a Thai King became dissatisfied with a subordinate, he would give him a white elephant. The gift would, in most cases, ruin the recipient.

I agree that connectivity should be improved wherever possible, but we have to make sure that we can afford to sustain the subsequent and sizable increases in demand: if it becomes much easier to get from A to B, we know that people will adjust their routines and patterns to take advantage of this new ease (eg: work in Nepean, live in Gatineau; live in Alta Vista, shop on Maloney, etc.) which will result in large increases for the demand for the route as long as it's easy.

However, infrastructure for private modes of transportation (bikes, cars, walkways), by their nature, become less and less effective the more people use them, unlike mass transportation.

So, knowing that building a limited-access link between the 50 and the 417 will cause great increases in demand and that those increases will cause the tunnel to become less and less effective (i.e: more gridlock), do we have the resources necessary for adding more and more lanes in the future? Since a tunnel is so expensive, delicate and time-consuming, I don't think that we should set ourselves up for a situation where we need to expand and expand them at the tune of billions of dollars and months of disruption.


So, if ease of access begets increased demand which begets increased need for infrastructure, but we can't afford those increases, we need to temper demand by reducing the ease of access either by not letting cars in the tunnel or charging a significant fee for using the tunnel according to demand.

Otherwise, we're taking on a white elephant which will very much drive us to ruin.
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  #975  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2013, 7:47 PM
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Originally Posted by sonysnob View Post
This is the right solution, finally. If it were me, I'd build a four lane tunnel for all through traffic and potentially even toll it for a couple of dollars to offset the high expense of building it. The connection between A-5 and the 417 serves through traffic in addition to local, and was always supposed to be directly connected to Hwy 417 when the bridge was built in the 60s. The east end of Ottawa isn't benefiting from having through traffic mix with local traffic on local streets.
I don't think we really need a full two freeway lanes of capacity in each direction. One in each direction ought to suffice, but I wouldn't limit them to trucks, either. Just set the toll for cars high enough that cars don't clog it up. After all, we're talking about dealing with about 3000 truck movements per day, and a freeway lane has a capacity of about 2000 vehicle movements per hour - so a single continuous flow lane per direction would more than address the actual problem at hand, with plenty of spare capacity to serve toll-paying cars.

The Macdonald-Cartier Bridge currently has six lanes, but in a sane world two of those lanes would be given over to transit, be it BRT or LRT, with the latter likely continuing on in its own tunnel to connect at the Rideau Centre to the LRT tunnel now under construction. Another pair of lanes would connect into the tunnel while the remaining pair of lanes can connect to the downtown street network, principally King Edward, which itself can be reduced from six to four lanes.

A four lane tunnel is just overkill and would likely bring about demands for an interchange at one or two of St. Patrick, Rideau and Laurier. The point is just to deal with the problem we have, not create another one in the form of more traffic demand. We want to create a way for through traffic trucks to bypass downtown streets, not induce a whole pile of demand for extra car traffic onto those same streets.
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  #976  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2013, 10:56 PM
sonysnob sonysnob is offline
 
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I don't think we really need a full two freeway lanes of capacity in each direction. One in each direction ought to suffice, but I wouldn't limit them to trucks, either. Just set the toll for cars high enough that cars don't clog it up. After all, we're talking about dealing with about 3000 truck movements per day, and a freeway lane has a capacity of about 2000 vehicle movements per hour - so a single continuous flow lane per direction would more than address the actual problem at hand, with plenty of spare capacity to serve toll-paying cars.
6 moths ago there was enough traffic to be building a brand new bridge via Kettle Island. Truck traffic is only part of the problem. It's stupid to route long distance through traffic on Ottawa's Downtown local streets. With through traffic removed, think of all the bike lanes they could add.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
The Macdonald-Cartier Bridge currently has six lanes, but in a sane world two of those lanes would be given over to transit, be it BRT or LRT, with the latter likely continuing on in its own tunnel to connect at the Rideau Centre to the LRT tunnel now under construction. Another pair of lanes would connect into the tunnel while the remaining pair of lanes can connect to the downtown street network, principally King Edward, which itself can be reduced from six to four lanes.
That would be dumb. Buses can run just as quickly in mixed traffic so long as the level of service isn't degradation, which it isn't on the MC Bridge.

There doesn't seem to be any lane restrictions on this six lane bridge, and I have always figured Copenghagen to be a sane place. Maybe you don't?
http://goo.gl/maps/iYwkA

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dado View Post
A four lane tunnel is just overkill and would likely bring about demands for an interchange at one or two of St. Patrick, Rideau and Laurier. The point is just to deal with the problem we have, not create another one in the form of more traffic demand. We want to create a way for through traffic trucks to bypass downtown streets, not induce a whole pile of demand for extra car traffic onto those same streets.
Then don't build interchanges. Most interchanges are 2km apart anyways, which is less than the entire length of the tunnel.

Canada is a first world country. We shouldn't be shy about having first world infrastructure.
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  #977  
Old Posted Nov 30, 2013, 11:07 PM
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Aylmer Aylmer is offline
 
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Originally Posted by Dado View Post

The Macdonald-Cartier Bridge currently has six lanes, but in a sane world two of those lanes would be given over to transit, be it BRT or LRT, with the latter likely continuing on in its own tunnel to connect at the Rideau Centre to the LRT tunnel now under construction. Another pair of lanes would connect into the tunnel while the remaining pair of lanes can connect to the downtown street network, principally King Edward, which itself can be reduced from six to four lanes.
First of all: you're bang-on about inducing traffic.

But what you said about transit mad me think - if it wasn't too expensive, I wonder what it'd look like to take advantage of the tunnelling to build BRT or empty tunnels which could be converted to LRT from Rideau to DFATD? It could eventually be extended into Gatineau and connect to the Rideau OLRT and serve as a major redevelopment tool for King Edward.

It could be done in the same way that Calgary built a part of its 8th Avenue Subway when their City Hall was being built above it and which is now preparing to complete it and put it to use.

Interesting at the very least!
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  #978  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2013, 12:14 AM
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6 moths ago there was enough traffic to be building a brand new bridge via Kettle Island. Truck traffic is only part of the problem. It's stupid to route long distance through traffic on Ottawa's Downtown local streets. With through traffic removed, think of all the bike lanes they could add.
Alright, I would agree that, if through-traffic were a problem, the tunnel should attempt to alleviate that, so it's important to look at the numbers:
In 2011, the number of trips from Gatineau to parts of Ottawa outside of downtown (and vice-versa) or to other cities was so small, that it isn't even measured by the Origin-Destination Survey's desire lines. To give you an idea, it's just shy of 0.09% of Ottawa's automobile trips.

So, the numbers tell us that it isn't much of a problem.

However, as mentioned, induced traffic through increased capacity CAN and WILL become a problem, fulfilling a self-fulfilling prophecy.


Quote:
That would be dumb. Buses can run just as quickly in mixed traffic so long as the level of service isn't degradation, which it isn't on the MC Bridge.

There doesn't seem to be any lane restrictions on this six lane bridge, and I have always figured Copenghagen to be a sane place. Maybe you don't?
http://goo.gl/maps/iYwkA
Yes, buses would run just fine in that ring road from Malmo to the Danish mainland. However, on one of the only 4 bridges between the middle of a metropolitan region, I can assure you that buses do not run as smoothly in mixed traffic as they do in segregated lanes and, with the rapid growth on both sides of the river, it is exactly because we don't yet have a crisis on our hands that we should try to find solutions.

So, because a bus lane can transport over 2000% more people than a highway lane (50 000 PPHPD vs 2500 PPHPD), making public transportation a viable and attractive option for people also clears up the roads for those who need or want to drive and making it quick, easy and enjoyable for everyone to get around as they like.
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  #979  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2013, 12:41 AM
sonysnob sonysnob is offline
 
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I am sick of hearing of induced demand.

If demand is indeed induced, it's because peoples preference is auto travel and not its alternatives.
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  #980  
Old Posted Dec 1, 2013, 1:07 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by sonysnob View Post
I am sick of hearing of induced demand.

If demand is indeed induced, it's because peoples preference is auto travel and not its alternatives.

I'm sorry to hear that you don't like this particular aspect of reality.


However, it isn't just a "car thing":

When transit is made more enjoyable and convenient, demand is induced because it's easier, not because they have some innate preference for public transit.
If you had free, unlimited cell phone coverage, you would use it more than you would otherwise.
If you had an orange juice faucet, your demand for orange juice would be induced because it would be easier.

And if you could get from Gatineau to south of Ottawa in a free tunnel passage, people would do it much more than they currently need or want to.

You get the idea.


Induced demand isn't about what people's preferences, but about cost: monetary cost, cost in time, cost in stress, etc. People take their cars because it's less costly than the alternatives, just as people would take alternatives if it were easier than taking their car, as it is in a good number of cities.

The problem, as underlined in my post with the picture of the elephant, is that car infrastructure quickly becomes ineffective, unlike public transit or active transportation infrastructure and, as we have shown in the past sixty years, there is not enough money or space available in the world to spend our way out of this problem.

So no matter what we do, demand will be induced or discouraged, so we have to chose wisely what choices we make in order to not paint ourselves into a very expensive, very congested corner.
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