DALLAS FORT WORTH | Urban + Suburban P & C

[cloud713]

Originally Posted by Owlhorn

another reason I could care less about having tall buildings

http://bizbeatblog.dallasnews.com/2013/1...er-in-dallas-plans-big-development.html/

New Cityplace tower owner in Dallas plans big development


By Steve Brown
[email protected]
11:08 am on November 18, 2013

Florida-based Parmenter Realty Partners said Monday that it has completed its purchase of the 42-story Tower at Cityplace on North Central Expressway.
The Miami-based investor has had the 1.35 million-square-foot skyscraper near Dallas’ Uptown district under contract for more than a month.
The new owner said that it will build a “state-of-the-art urban mixed-use development surrounding the tower containing over 600,000 square feet of restaurants, shops and residential dwellings” on vacant land surrounding the tower.




This quality of development, the zoning, the planning in downtown and the inner-city areas of Dallas are just amazing. The life going on in the neighborhoods are great. The parks, the mixed-use, great restaurants, museums, venues. The amount of development is crazy. Its not tall, but its the second most active construction market after New York.

your on a skyscraper forum and you dont care about tall buildings? im not buying that...
the development at CityPlace is excellent and Dallas is very well coordinated with better connectivity, i will admit. but you seem to forget Houston has no zoning.
one could compare the Williams Tower area to the new CityPlace plans, with theGalleria and multiple residential options surrounding the base of the tower. its just not all one cohesive master plan, its a mish mash of different developments that work together. sure zoning helps have a more organized city, but id say were doing just fine without it.

[dch526]

http://bizbeatblog.dallasnews.com/2013/1...-board-for-kdcs-richardson-project.html/

It just keeps getting bigger.

600,000 SF Raytheon Regional campus (Completed: May 2015)
17 Acre Shopping Center (Open: Mid 2015)

The link shows a map with Phase I, II, III on it with Phase III completion in 2019

[Owlhorn]

Originally Posted by cloud713

your on a skyscraper forum and you dont care about tall buildings? im not buying that...
the development at CityPlace is excellent and Dallas is very well coordinated with better connectivity, i will admit. but you seem to forget Houston has no zoning.
one could compare the Williams Tower area to the new CityPlace plans, with theGalleria and multiple residential options surrounding the base of the tower. its just not all one cohesive master plan, its a mish mash of different developments that work together. sure zoning helps have a more organized city, but id say were doing just fine without it.

This is not just a skyscraper site. One of the biggest topics on this sight is urbanity. Dallas has worked hard on its zoning and creating a masterplan to add urban parks, rail transportation, better linkages to neighborhoods and more human scale building requirements, and it is paying off. We'd love to have lots of tall towers, but they need to be done right. Right now, in the Uptown area alone, there are 20 large projects at various stages of construction. And this is a small area and doesn't even include Oak Lawn or East Dallas, which have many more projects going on right now that is of the type that Dallasites have been clamoring for, for years. I would not trade that for taller buildings unless they were Vancouver style towers with more human scale at the sidewalk level. I get that they aren't as exciting but look at the great cities of the world. Lots of human scale at street level. So yes, in the case of my city, if you could fill every block with 5-10 story buildings like 3700 McKinney or the Gables Whole Foods projects, I would take that every time.

And no, one cannot compare what is going on in the Cityplace are to the Galleria area in Houston. The Cityplace area is far more urban and includes the future ACS project, and West Village project as part of the Cityplace TIF in northern Uptown. The buildings and projects going up in this area are all mixed use and are connected to the rest of the city by a subway station and a streetcar system that has a turnaround platform. The buildings are all zoned for wide sidewalks, very little surface parking, and certain amount of mixed usage per acre. Even the shopping centers that were suburban before cannot be rebuilt in the same manner and are pretty much goners. The Galleria Area in Houston is more like a bigger version of the Galleria Dallas area. Lots of individual towers, some mixed uses, but mostly not of what I'd rate as great urbanity at the street level. But even in that area of Dallas, the zoning has been changed, and future projects have to follow a similar model adopted by the inner city areas of Dallas. I'm not saying that I hate Houston or something. Its pretty much my second work home, and I have many friends there. There are some great projects there too. But I LOVE what Dallas is deliberately trying to do. The results are not always perfect, but there is a real effort to make Dallas into a real city, and its paying off at the street level.

[cloud713]

Wow are you a Dallas homer? Congrats on your cookie cutter zoning and your severely underused light rail system. Other then that what is better about Dallas? I wasn't trying to turn this into a contest, was just giving input from a different perspective.

[TTU Arch]

Originally Posted by cloud713

Wow I should of known you were a Dallas homer. That explains why you had the opinions that you originally did... Congrats on your cookie cutter zoning and your severely underused light rail system. Other then that what does Dallas have Houston beat at? I wasn't trying to turn this into a contest, was just giving input from a different perspective.

Cookie cutter or not. There are strong advantages and some disadvantages to having zoning. Owlhorn is correct in their summation. Adding to that Dallas follows the patterns in zoning that have stood the test of time in just about every American city. There are positives to having no zoning as is the case in Houston and there are disadvantages. At the stats both cities have the same guts (type of stores, similar demographics, similar in size) however the way they are developed is different.

If you feel the need to start a conversation questioning how Dallas beats Houston or vice versa, please take that conversation to a different thread.

[Owlhorn]

Originally Posted by cloud713

Wow are you a Dallas homer? Congrats on your cookie cutter zoning and your severely underused light rail system. Other then that what is better about Dallas? I wasn't trying to turn this into a contest, was just giving input from a different perspective.

liking what is going on in Dallas is not homerism. Everything happening is not going great and isn't always the right choice. Just saying that I will take what's going on over tall individual towers.

[cloud713]

Originally Posted by Owlhorn

liking what is going on in Dallas is not homerism. Everything happening is not going great and isn't always the right choice. Just saying that I will take what's going on over tall individual towers.

cool, i can respect that. i just find it odd your on SSP if your not a skyscraper enthusiast, but like you said a big part is this city compilation area about urban projects. Dallas does have some great things going for it.. i just love me some skyscrapers.

[R1070]

Originally Posted by Owlhorn

liking what is going on in Dallas is not homerism. Everything happening is not going great and isn't always the right choice. Just saying that I will take what's going on over tall individual towers.

[cloud713]

Originally Posted by Owlhorn

And no, one cannot compare what is going on in the Cityplace are to the Galleria area in Houston. The Cityplace area is far more urban and includes the future ACS project, and West Village project as part of the Cityplace TIF in northern Uptown. The buildings and projects going up in this area are all mixed use and are connected to the rest of the city by a subway station and a streetcar system that has a turnaround platform. The buildings are all zoned for wide sidewalks, very little surface parking, and certain amount of mixed usage per acre. Even the shopping centers that were suburban before cannot be rebuilt in the same manner and are pretty much goners. The Galleria Area in Houston is more like a bigger version of the Galleria Dallas area. Lots of individual towers, some mixed uses, but mostly not of what I'd rate as great urbanity at the street level.

i finally had a chance to go back and read your post now that im not busy.
just curious why you think the City Place development is so much different from the Williams Tower areas development? the light rail stop in CityPlace is pretty slick, but the uptown turntable is on the other side of 75..?
Post Oak will soon get a BRT system (and eventually light rail when the funding comes back) for mass transit, so the Williams Tower area will be served by that. there are millions of square feet of retail and office space all within a block or two (about the size of the CityPlace development), not to mention 2-3 apartment complexes, and another new complex going up. theGalleria, like 500 feet away from Williams Tower. WaterPlace apartments, like 300 feet from W.T. How is cityplace more "urban"? more cohesive/walkable, sure.
i guess one could argue that theGalleria is more similar to CityPlace (since its all one development and not a mish mash of things like claiming the area around W.T. is "mixed use"), with its office highrises and hotels built into the mall. Simon is currently planning a 300 unit residential tower for theGalleria Houston so it will be even more like a mixed use development.

[Owlhorn]

Originally Posted by cloud713

i finally had a chance to go back and read your post now that im not busy.
just curious why you think the City Place development is so much different from the Williams Tower areas development? the light rail stop in CityPlace is pretty slick, but the uptown turntable is on the other side of 75..?
Post Oak will soon get a BRT system (and eventually light rail when the funding comes back) for mass transit, so the Williams Tower area will be served by that. there are millions of square feet of retail and office space all within a block or two (about the size of the CityPlace development), not to mention 2-3 apartment complexes, and another new complex going up. theGalleria, like 500 feet away from Williams Tower. WaterPlace apartments, like 300 feet from W.T. How is cityplace more "urban"? more cohesive/walkable, sure.
i guess one could argue that theGalleria is more similar to CityPlace (since its all one development and not a mish mash of things like claiming the area around W.T. is "mixed use"), with its office highrises and hotels built into the mall. Simon is currently planning a 300 unit residential tower for theGalleria Houston so it will be even more like a mixed use development.

Not sure if you understand what the Cityplace area is. The Cityplace tower/resort is simply a building in the Cityplace area. The Cityplace group owned that whole area, east and west of 75 and planned twin towers that would span both sides as well as mixed-use mid-rise development throughout the neighborhood. The overlay/TIF what have you is still called Cityplace and development on both sides is referred to as Cityplace. The West Village is part of Cityplace. Mondrian is part of Cityplace. Alarra is part of Cityplace. The new Richards HQ is part of Cityplace. The new ACS/East Village development is part of Cityplace. This area is of course a part of Uptown, as is Lower McKinney and State-Thomas and many have given it the moniker of West Village, but the West Village is the block of development surrounded McKinney, Blackburn, Cole and Lemmon. Would link the map, but its huge and can be found on this page.

http://www.cityplace.org/About-Cityplace.aspx

here's a smaller version that outlines Cityplace. Again, keep in mind 3 more of these blocks are under construction and the bottom left portion has already announced a large mixed-use project as has the Cityplace Tower



Since that pic was taken, 3 more of those blocks are under construction with mixed-use, mid to high rise developments, and the development to the East of 75 calls for the same. The ACS campus to the lower left of the picture is under contract by Crow who announce building much the same as the development to the west of 75. You have the Development across Haskell from the Cityplace tower that is off the picture and is more of the same, and the Cityplace Resort recent announcement. Here's what that area looks like upclose.







The renderings for what is underconstruction and what's planned is more of the same.









[IMG]http://assets.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/The%20Richards%20Group*304.jpg?v=1[/IMG]

Yes, the Richards Group Headquarters missed on the northeastern corner, but they still are including 10,000 sq ft of retail and fitness center facing Cityplace Blvd. to match the rest of the area.


This is primarily what Uptown Dallas is, which Cityplace is a part of. Its all about creating a pedestrian experience. Is it perfect? No, we still get the dud once in a while, but this area is really seeing some great new urbanist development. Its just different than what Uptown Houston is. There's nothing wrong with that. Just to further illustrate, look at the Whole Foods going in down the street



Perhaps its not as exciting as a 40 story tower, but this to me is as great of a project as there has been in Texas in a long time. Just not something that's done on one block in this manner. Compare that to Blvd Place. Its just a different type of thing.

[weatherguru18]

This has turned into a ''who's d**k is bigger" thread. I'm from Houston. I feel I can speak on behalf of my fellow Houstonians to say that we are very, VERY excited about the large amount of development going on in our city. As far as height goes, we dominate. Period. We have MANY buildings planned and or under construction that exceed 30 stories and one that even tops out at 832' (New Chevron Tower)! That's big for the state of Texas, not just Houston. There's no need to be envious.

As for Dallas, they are doing great things there, too. I'm glad to see the large amount of urban infill and development taking place. Dallas is a world class city with lots of potential. You guys submerged the cross-town freeway and built a park over it. How cool is that? Both cities have momentum. Both have bright futures. I know many of you guys in Dallas see Houston has blue collar trash but the reality of it is Houston is a wealthy city that is quickly evolving into the epicenter of American dominance through the energy sector. Dallas is on pace as well. Dallas is more known and had a tv show. Houston was the first word spoken from the moon. There. We're even. Now, get back on topic and keep up the great work, Dallas.

[toxteth o'grady]

The five-level mid-rise residential seems to be a popular phenomenon (I'm in one in Fort Worth). Several of them have gone up in Houston as well. I guess there is something to be said about the college dormitory with the built-in garage; it has appeal to younger professionals in their 20's and 30's. The best of these will have retail on the first floor and will be close to transit.

[Owlhorn]

Originally Posted by weatherguru18

This has turned into a ''who's d**k is bigger" thread. I'm from Houston. I feel I can speak on behalf of my fellow Houstonians to say that we are very, VERY excited about the large amount of development going on in our city. As far as height goes, we dominate. Period. We have MANY buildings planned and or under construction that exceed 30 stories and one that even tops out at 832' (New Chevron Tower)! That's big for the state of Texas, not just Houston. There's no need to be envious.

As for Dallas, they are doing great things there, too. I'm glad to see the large amount of urban infill and development taking place. Dallas is a world class city with lots of potential. You guys submerged the cross-town freeway and built a park over it. How cool is that? Both cities have momentum. Both have bright futures. I know many of you guys in Dallas see Houston has blue collar trash but the reality of it is Houston is a wealthy city that is quickly evolving into the epicenter of American dominance through the energy sector. Dallas is on pace as well. Dallas is more known and had a tv show. Houston was the first word spoken from the moon. There. We're even. Now, get back on topic and keep up the great work, Dallas.

This is not a whose is bigger thread. This is about Dallas development. Someone spoke on Dallas lagging, so I spoke on how much is going in Dallas in a Dallas thread and how its just not as visible or has that flash that people go crazy over. Also spoke on my preference for this type of development. Its about Dallas. If people don't like knowing what is going on in Dallas, they shouldn't be on a Dallas thread or Fort Worth for that matter.

[Sic'EmBears]

The additional 17 acre development at the bottom of the picture, mixed-use development surrounding the Tower at Cityplace, 3700 McKinney Ave, and Richards Group HQ will push the density over the edge.

[eburress]

Originally Posted by weatherguru18

This has turned into a ''who's d**k is bigger" thread. I'm from Houston. I feel I can speak on behalf of my fellow Houstonians to say that we are very, VERY excited about the large amount of development going on in our city. As far as height goes, we dominate. Period. We have MANY buildings planned and or under construction that exceed 30 stories and one that even tops out at 832' (New Chevron Tower)! That's big for the state of Texas, not just Houston. There's no need to be envious.

As for Dallas, they are doing great things there, too. I'm glad to see the large amount of urban infill and development taking place. Dallas is a world class city with lots of potential. You guys submerged the cross-town freeway and built a park over it. How cool is that? Both cities have momentum. Both have bright futures. I know many of you guys in Dallas see Houston has blue collar trash but the reality of it is Houston is a wealthy city that is quickly evolving into the epicenter of American dominance through the energy sector. Dallas is on pace as well. Dallas is more known and had a tv show. Houston was the first word spoken from the moon. There. We're even. Now, get back on topic and keep up the great work, Dallas.

In general, debates on topics that are almost entirely subjective (e.g., my city is better than yours) are about as pointless as they come. I personally feel like both Houston and Dallas have a lot going for them, but whose stuff is "better," who cares? I would say that DanielG425 and cloud713 probably ought to realize that their opinions are just that though...opinions.

[eburress]

Originally Posted by Owlhorn

This is not a whose is bigger thread. This is about Dallas development. Someone spoke on Dallas lagging, so I spoke on how much is going in Dallas in a Dallas thread and how its just not as visible or has that flash that people go crazy over. Also spoke on my preference for this type of development. Its about Dallas. If people don't like knowing what is going on in Dallas, they shouldn't be on a Dallas thread or Fort Worth for that matter.

Absolutely. It'd be the same as if you went over to the Houston thread extolling opinions of Dallas' superiority.

The height debate is an interesting one - is it better for a city to have one one hundred-story building built or ten ten-story buildings? Frankly, in the next decade Dallas and Houston may be able to pull off both, but it's still interesting.

[cloud713]

Originally Posted by Owlhorn

Not sure if you understand what the Cityplace area is. The Cityplace tower/resort is simply a building in the Cityplace area. The Cityplace group owned that whole area, east and west of 75 and planned twin towers that would span both sides as well as mixed-use mid-rise development throughout the neighborhood. The overlay/TIF what have you is still called Cityplace and development on both sides is referred to as Cityplace. The West Village is part of Cityplace. Mondrian is part of Cityplace. Alarra is part of Cityplace. The new Richards HQ is part of Cityplace. The new ACS/East Village development is part of Cityplace. This area is of course a part of Uptown, as is Lower McKinney and State-Thomas and many have given it the moniker of West Village, but the West Village is the block of development surrounded McKinney, Blackburn, Cole and Lemmon. Would link the map, but its huge and can be found on this page.

http://www.cityplace.org/About-Cityplace.aspx

here's a smaller version that outlines Cityplace. Again, keep in mind 3 more of these blocks are under construction and the bottom left portion has already announced a large mixed-use project as has the Cityplace Tower



Since that pic was taken, 3 more of those blocks are under construction with mixed-use, mid to high rise developments, and the development to the East of 75 calls for the same. The ACS campus to the lower left of the picture is under contract by Crow who announce building much the same as the development to the west of 75. You have the Development across Haskell from the Cityplace tower that is off the picture and is more of the same, and the Cityplace Resort recent announcement. Here's what that area looks like upclose.







The renderings for what is underconstruction and what's planned is more of the same.









[IMG]http://assets.bizjournals.com/dallas/news/The%20Richards%20Group*304.jpg?v=1[/IMG]

Yes, the Richards Group Headquarters missed on the northeastern corner, but they still are including 10,000 sq ft of retail and fitness center facing Cityplace Blvd. to match the rest of the area.


This is primarily what Uptown Dallas is, which Cityplace is a part of. Its all about creating a pedestrian experience. Is it perfect? No, we still get the dud once in a while, but this area is really seeing some great new urbanist development. Its just different than what Uptown Houston is. There's nothing wrong with that. Just to further illustrate, look at the Whole Foods going in down the street



Perhaps its not as exciting as a 40 story tower, but this to me is as great of a project as there has been in Texas in a long time. Just not something that's done on one block in this manner. Compare that to Blvd Place. Its just a different type of thing.

wow i feel pretty ignorant now. haha. i thought Cityplace was just the area around the bottom of the Tower at Cityplace. didnt realize it stretched across 75. now i see why you say they arent similar developments at all.. i was thinking the tower at cityplace would have residential and retail components around the base of the tower, and that was the extent of Cityplace. my badd... ha. Dallas does definitely have Houston beat in urbanity with the uptown area. that uptown initiative plan they started a decade or two ago has worked wonders.

[eburress]

Originally Posted by cloud713

wow i feel pretty ignorant now. haha. i thought Cityplace was just the area around the bottom of the Tower at Cityplace. didnt realize it stretched across 75. now i see why you say they arent similar developments at all.. i was thinking the tower at cityplace would have residential and retail components around the base of the tower, and that was the extent of Cityplace. my badd... ha. Dallas does definitely have Houston beat in urbanity with the uptown area. that uptown initiative plan they started a decade or two ago has worked wonders.

Though it's making progress, now Downtown needs to catch up. In any case, I think Houston has areas that are comparable, and it's exciting that so much of Houston's potential new growth is in or near its downtown.

[Sic'EmBears]

Just off the top of my head…some larger residential developments for Dallas' city center:

Under Construction
Skyhouse-Victory Park: 24flrs 336-units
Arpeggio-Victory Park: 5flrs 377-units
Camden-Victory Park: N/A 423-units
Moda-Victory Park: 6flrs 263-units
Alexan-Goat Hill: 10flrs 364-units
4110 Fairmount-Oak Lawn: 4flrs 299-units
Knight St/Fairmount St: N/A 368-units
Encore-Medical District: 4flrs 288-units
Alta Maple Station-Maple Avenue: 4flrs 249-units
Stoneleigh Residences-Harwood: 22flrs 70-units
JLB-Katy Trail: 18flrs 299-units
Monaco-Katy Trail: 6flrs 192-units
Routh Street Flats: 6flrs 208-units
The Taylor-Uptown: 17flrs 308-units
3700M-West Village: 21flrs 381-units
JLB Cityplace-Cityplace: 6flrs 300-units
2500 McKinney-LOMAC: 8flrs 239-units (including 17 3-story town homes)
Cantabria-Turtle Creek: 9flrs 249-units
Belmont Village-Turtle Creek: 7flrs 201-units
GE-Cedar Springs: 6flrs 347-units
District 1444-Design District: 5flrs 224-units
Alliance Residential-Design District: 4flrs 400-units
Flora Lofts-Arts District: 6flrs 47-units


In Development
2505 Turtle Creek Blvd-Turtle Creek: 24flrs 60-condos
City Lights: 5flrs 424-units
Fairfield-West End: 5flrs 267-units
One Dallas-LOMAC: 20flrs 200-units
Millcreek-Knox: 6flrs 208-unit
Legacy at Fitzhugh-Fitzhugh Ave: 5flrs 360-units
Farmers Market: 5flrs 240-units
Farmers Mkt Square: 3flrs 108-townhomes

A recent article counted the number of apartment units under construction in the third quarter of 2013:

DTD/Uptown- 2,836
Oak Lawn- 2,523
East Dallas1,171

Pretty impressive if I must say!

[R1070]

Originally Posted by eburress

Though it's making progress, now Downtown needs to catch up. In any case, I think Houston has areas that are comparable, and it's exciting that so much of Houston's potential new growth is in or near its downtown.

Yes Downtown Dallas needs to catch up, but it appears the fever is spreading more into Knox-Henderson, Oak Lawn, Design District and Bryan Place rather than downtown. While those neighborhoods are already considered Dallas' more urban areas they are becoming even more dense and urban. I always find it funny when posters from other cities make it seem like Uptown is the only dense/urban neighborhood in Dallas. I live in Oak Lawn and it feels the same as Uptown to me in a lot of ways as I can pretty much walk to anything i want to.