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  #3281  
Old Posted Nov 12, 2013, 10:00 PM
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jlousa jlousa is offline
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I disagree, this is exactly what the courts are for. What's a waste of time is that it needed to get to this stage.
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  #3282  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2013, 4:43 AM
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Dissappointed to hear the bike share program has hit another snag, this one is pretty serious. Hopefully the taxpayers stop losing money on this plan and a new plan that doesn't cost taxpayers money on an ongoing basis can be found.

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Wheels+fall+Vancouver+bike+share+program/9162995/story.html
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  #3283  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2013, 5:26 AM
IanS IanS is offline
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Originally Posted by jlousa View Post
Dissappointed to hear the bike share program has hit another snag, this one is pretty serious. Hopefully the taxpayers stop losing money on this plan and a new plan that doesn't cost taxpayers money on an ongoing basis can be found.

http://www.theprovince.com/news/Wheels+fall+Vancouver+bike+share+program/9162995/story.html
From the article, it appears that the pending insolvency was caught before the City paid out anything to them. I certainly hope that's the case. If they do go bankrupt, or file for any kind of protection, the City won't see that money back.
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  #3284  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2013, 5:00 PM
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From the article, it appears that the pending insolvency was caught before the City paid out anything to them. I certainly hope that's the case. If they do go bankrupt, or file for any kind of protection, the City won't see that money back.
At least that is a positive.

Frankly the bike sharing setups really are not a viable model as is without heavy heavy subsidies from the taxpayer. The city is already short revenue as is every year, they don't need to keep adding to mounting expenses. As good as this idea is in principle it has proven to just not work. Even New York's system is rumoured to be in the red and they have close to 50 million dollars in corporate sponsorship backing that program.

The plan is flawed and the money could be used in other areas if they insist on spending it or they could just balance the budget and try not to dip further into the taxpayers pockets.
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  #3285  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2013, 5:14 PM
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At least that is a positive.

Frankly the bike sharing setups really are not a viable model as is without heavy heavy subsidies from the taxpayer. The city is already short revenue as is every year, they don't need to keep adding to mounting expenses. As good as this idea is in principle it has proven to just not work. Even New York's system is rumoured to be in the red and they have close to 50 million dollars in corporate sponsorship backing that program.

The plan is flawed and the money could be used in other areas if they insist on spending it or they could just balance the budget and try not to dip further into the taxpayers pockets.
No kidding. If the following is true (taken from the Province article), then this is seriously flawed:

"In 2011, Montreal council approved a $108-million bailout package for Bixi to cover a budget shortfall. That included a $37-million loan to cover Bixi’s deficit, and another $71 million in loan guarantees to export and develop the system abroad."

Awaiting the inevitable but just as flawed "Yes, but think of the environmental and social gains! You can't put a price on that."
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  #3286  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2013, 6:21 PM
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Corruption in Montreal's government? Say it ain't so.

I'm a huge supporter of cycling and bicycle shares, but with our helmet laws it's doomed to failure. I'm hoping this causes and a pause and a reboot with a better helmet optional system.

Last edited by WarrenC12; Nov 14, 2013 at 6:56 PM.
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  #3287  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2013, 6:39 PM
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Seems like it's doomed for failure where there aren't helmet laws either, at least from a financial standpoint.
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  #3288  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2013, 7:02 PM
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I don't think helmet laws are going to change.
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  #3289  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2013, 8:14 PM
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Seems like it's doomed for failure where there aren't helmet laws either, at least from a financial standpoint.
I don't think the helmet law makes a difference frankly. This is doomed to fail either way. Seemingly even the programs that would be considered "successful" are losing money so the model itself is obviously flawed.

The helmet thing could be solved by putting in the membership agreement that you are aware of the laws governing the province of british columbia. (i don't speak lawyer)
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  #3290  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2013, 8:25 PM
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maybe i missed it but isn't a bike lane being built on Cornwall? why do we need a bike lane through Kits beach - just send them two blocks south to Cornwall??
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  #3291  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2013, 8:39 PM
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maybe i missed it but isn't a bike lane being built on Cornwall? why do we need a bike lane through Kits beach - just send them two blocks south to Cornwall??
Seawall extension and a major commuter route. 2 different routes, 2 different purposes?
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  #3292  
Old Posted Nov 14, 2013, 11:18 PM
Porfiry Porfiry is offline
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maybe i missed it but isn't a bike lane being built on Cornwall? why do we need a bike lane through Kits beach - just send them two blocks south to Cornwall??
There is an existing bike route through Kits beach - it's just shared with pedestrians. The plan is simply to separate it.
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  #3293  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2013, 8:12 AM
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At least that is a positive.

Frankly the bike sharing setups really are not a viable model as is without heavy heavy subsidies from the taxpayer. The city is already short revenue as is every year, they don't need to keep adding to mounting expenses. As good as this idea is in principle it has proven to just not work. Even New York's system is rumoured to be in the red and they have close to 50 million dollars in corporate sponsorship backing that program.

The plan is flawed and the money could be used in other areas if they insist on spending it or they could just balance the budget and try not to dip further into the taxpayers pockets.
If we applied that line of thinking equally, then no roads for cars or trucks would exist either. *All* transportation is subsidized, except for pedestrians. Driving is subsidized to the tune of over 50%. As a society we all decide what to subsidize. You cannot however just say because it requires a subsidy it isn't valid.
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  #3294  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2013, 3:08 PM
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Brent Toderian posted this to twitter. Make of it what you will.

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  #3295  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2013, 4:15 PM
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If we applied that line of thinking equally, then no roads for cars or trucks would exist either. *All* transportation is subsidized, except for pedestrians. Driving is subsidized to the tune of over 50%. As a society we all decide what to subsidize. You cannot however just say because it requires a subsidy it isn't valid.
"Subsidized" infrastructure for all, perhaps, but can you please tell my wife where she can go to get her subsidy cheque for her car? Far as I know they don't do that for cars, motorcyles, jet packs et al, so why should bikes be subsidized?
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  #3296  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2013, 6:24 PM
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If we applied that line of thinking equally, then no roads for cars or trucks would exist either. *All* transportation is subsidized, except for pedestrians. Driving is subsidized to the tune of over 50%. As a society we all decide what to subsidize. You cannot however just say because it requires a subsidy it isn't valid.
You argument is irrelevant here we aren't talking about "bike lanes" or infrastructure we are talking about offering a bike sharing program that puts bikes around the downtown core that are then subsidized by the taxpayer. The government doesn't subsidize your car purchase or for that matter they do not subsidize the car share programs that exist. The infrastructure itself sure that is a different discussion and frankly I have no problem with that (although the execution and planning on the other hand i do not agree with). That would be like the city paying Daimler to operate car2go but that isn't the case. I would even think the city would collect some sort of fee from car2go for permits, icbc and the province make revenue from the licensing and insurance along with gas taxes that are paid every time one is filled up.

IF there was a business case for a bike sharing program to exist it would already be up and running but as it is, no matter how successful of a program it is, it seems to lose money and the cities end up having to pick up the slack. In the long run it would probably be cheaper to give each person a lump sum of money towards a bike purchase than operating a system that will lose money each and every year it exists until some sort of scheme is developed that at minimum is self sustaining.
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  #3297  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2013, 7:03 PM
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Late to the discussion, but wanted to add my two cents.

Re: NYC bikeshare (Citibikes)

I was in NYC for a week last month. Bikis were in use everywhere (Manhattan). However, they also had new bike lanes everywhere full of bixis and private bikes. Their role-out came with a massive investment and political commitment (champions) to bike lanes first. As of 2009 they had built 270 km of bike lanes simply marked with paint and signage, and lie between a parking lane and a traffic lane These are known as class 2. (the new lanes down Richards St. are class 2) Since 2009, they have been upgrading many of these lanes to full class 1 (completely separated) lanes. Then they started to role out their bike share. What a shock it is very popular with locals and tourists. Primarily because the bike share (and lanes) are not for those already bicycling it for those who would cycle if it was convenient and safer.

Vancouver should use the same approach to building class 2s everywhere first (based on a master plan....oh wait we don't have an OCP...we have a library of small plans...). Anyway, phased implementation always allows for wider application and spreads the cost of the final implementation while still providing desperately need bicycle infrastructure to more people. And, the more complete a network is the more people can use and access it. (Try getting to the Burrard st bridge bike lanes from Dunbar) I find it funny all the hate and attribution Gregor gets for the bicycle program in Vancouver. First the NPA started most of the bicycle programs that the mayor inherited. Second, the Hornby and Dunsmuir lanes are far from an ambitious launch of separated bike lanes. The implementation has been incremental and you wouldn't know it from the news, but the engineering department has done adjustments to every stretch of bike lanes to accommodate businesses. Instead of what is done essentially everywhere else: plan for the lane with feedback at the beginning, announce the lane, build the lane. Many of these same businesses won't even cooperate with the study of how the lanes are affecting their business. (This is why the results from any study on the impact of the bike lanes in Vancouver cannot be taken seriously as they are not an accurate sample)


Now my pet-peeve: Stop bringing Montreal into the discussion of bikeshare. Yes, they were a pioneer in Canada, but the contracts there were set-up completely different. The good part was the city supported bike lanes and even provided snow and debris clearing services. (People do use the bike lanes there in the winter) However, the bike share was not managed properly from the start. And, I cannot even begin to explain why the city doesn't just absorb the program so they can control operations and funding. Instead of writing cheques.

Now the second issue subsidies.

All transportation infrastructure is subsidized. From sidewalks, to bike lanes, to transit, to roads. Subsidizing bicycle infrastructure costs a lot less than car infrastructure. I understand why there is resentment for bicycle infrastructure. Car usage has the appearance of user pay (gas, insurance, vehicle, tolls, parking) whereas bikes (bike share or private bike and helmet-for those who wear them). As governments look to reduce costs it is shifting more of the costs to the users (drivers). There is also the perception of breaking the rules (of the road) such as not wearing a helmet, bicycling on sidewalks, and general dangerous cycling behavior. However, how many drivers stay below 50km/hr in the city, pass on the right at intersections, change lanes in the intersection, talk/text on the their phones, change lanes without signaling, etc. etc. This is human nature. An idiot on a bike and an idiot in a car are just idiots. The modes are irrelevant. However, the damage a car can do versus a bicycle is massive. Should bicycle infractions be enforced as much as driving ones? Absolutely. However, why don't we let the police decide what the best use of their resources are and agree that stereotyping all users of a mode is irrelevant to mode investment.

Now to the bad news. Most of us grew up on very subsidized car infrastructure that was built when labour and input costs were a lot cheaper. We can not afford to maintain what we have and definitely cannot afford to maintain an expanding system. This system was great gas was cheap and everyone had a car. The problem was population growth and land required to service this system.

....skip a whole lot explaining the problems with this model....

Fast forward today you live in a community that has busy transit and and heavy traffic congestion but you and many people you know need a car to get around still. Some politician announces he is going to build bike lanes. You don't bike and the people you know don't bike. You see this as less parking and less lanes for cars.

So why should you support these policies? You should because in the long run they save money, improve safety, reduce car trips, improve public realm, health, and a score of other reasons. The mode switch to bicycling saves government money in the long run and taxpayers/citizens individually.

If you still disagree with me or want to read someone who is a better authority on the subject of transportation subsidies check out Todd Littman's paper

Also consider that bike lanes are one of the only approaches local governments can use to combat congestion. Highway and transit priorities and funding are controlled by senior levels of government.
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  #3298  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2013, 7:21 PM
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The taxpayers do subsidize the car sharing operations, and I find that equally revolting as well.
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  #3299  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2013, 7:30 PM
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Originally Posted by city-dweller View Post
Late to the discussion, but wanted to add my two cents.

As of 2009 they had built 270 km of bike lanes simply marked with paint and signage, and lie between a parking lane and a traffic lane These are known as class 2. (the new lanes down Richards St. are class 2) Since 2009, they have been upgrading many of these lanes to full class 1 (completely separated) lanes. Then they started to role out their bike share. What a shock it is very popular with locals and tourists. Primarily because the bike share (and lanes) are not for those already bicycling it for those who would cycle if it was convenient and safer.
Great post in general, but can you clarify Class 2? The lanes on Richards are between the parking lane (not really a lane as it is painted spots) and the sidewalk.

What you describe between the parking lane and the traffic lane is the vast majority of lanes in Metro Vancouver. Cambie St. for example.
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  #3300  
Old Posted Nov 18, 2013, 8:44 PM
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Great post in general, but can you clarify Class 2? The lanes on Richards are between the parking lane (not really a lane as it is painted spots) and the sidewalk.

What you describe between the parking lane and the traffic lane is the vast majority of lanes in Metro Vancouver. Cambie St. for example.
https://bikehub.ca/sites/default/files/imce/pcmp_design_guidelines.pdf Page 21 shows the classes for bike lanes on arterial and page 22 on collector streets.
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