Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[Chadillaccc]

That would be badass. Hunger Games style.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by osmo

America didn't have a domestic league either till 1994. It was one of the requirements of their bid and the modern MLS was born from that. The MLS with its fool proof method will expand to more Canadian cities. Sharing with CFL franchises makes the most sense but with the CFLs fetish obsession with turf it makes it more difficult to do.

Calgary and Ottawa should have teams in 4-5 years. Toronto with tsnd strong support for shitty TFC could handle another team in the suburbs. If the Argos move to Vaughn then a MLS/CFL combo could make sense but an Wong hold my breath since MLSE would never let it happen unless it owned the 2nd MLS team.

This is a pipe dream.

The MLS will soon add a franchise in New York City (NYC FC).

The next four likely expansions are Miami, Orlando, Atlanta and Minneapolis.

Beyond that, there are still so many American markets that have been untapped. San Antonio, North Carolina, Phoenix, San Diego, St. Louis, etc.

As someone living in the US, the majority of American MLS fans I've talked to already feel that there are too many Canadian franchises when considering that the league itself only has 19 franchises at the moment. No one in the US wants another Canadian team until the league expands to 26 - 30 franchises.

This is what Canadians don't understand. While we get super excited to belong to American leagues, people in the US generally don't like it. And the leagues themselves don't like it much, because the big TV deals are in the US. That's what they're fishing for.

This is why I said that Canada should get a domestic soccer league at some point. 9 - 12 franchises can be supported even now, and decades into the future several cities will be capable of supporting a professional franchise.

Soccer is not yet a sport that Americans love en masse and dominate. It makes sense when you look at a sport like basketball or baseball where Americans completely dominate it. In such cases, it makes sense to tag along with an American league. In other cases, it doesn't make as much sense. Why tag along with a foreign league and be subject to their whims when Canadian markets seem better than American ones in terms of soccer support?

[GlassCity]

It's pretty obvious, America is where the money is. And people generally like to be part of American leagues instead of their own.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

It's pretty obvious, America is where the money is. And people generally like to be part of American leagues instead of their own.

People generally?

I find it's a unique phenomenon among Canadians.

I've never heard of Mexicans wanting their soccer league to have American franchises, or Mexicans wanting to abandon their domestic soccer league in favor of the MLS.

[GlassCity]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

People generally?

I find it's a unique phenomenon among Canadians.

I've never heard of Mexicans wanting their soccer league to have American franchises, or Mexicans wanting to abandon their domestic soccer league in favor of the MLS.

Sorry, I was referring to people in Canada specifically.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This would all be great but if I had my choice and prioritized I would first like to see more love and support for the CFL and Canadian football in general, since it is a sport that only exists in Canada and is indigenous to the country.

That would be my choice as well.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by GlassCity

It's pretty obvious, America is where the money is. And people generally like to be part of American leagues instead of their own.

Canada seems to be the only country on the planet that does that. This country will never fully develop and mature if we continue behaving like an appendage of another country. What are we, a colony?

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

This is a pipe dream.

The MLS will soon add a franchise in New York City (NYC FC).

The next four likely expansions are Miami, Orlando, Atlanta and Minneapolis.

Beyond that, there are still so many American markets that have been untapped. San Antonio, North Carolina, Phoenix, San Diego, St. Louis, etc.

As someone living in the US, the majority of American MLS fans I've talked to already feel that there are too many Canadian franchises when considering that the league itself only has 19 franchises at the moment. No one in the US wants another Canadian team until the league expands to 26 - 30 franchises.

This is what Canadians don't understand. While we get super excited to belong to American leagues, people in the US generally don't like it. And the leagues themselves don't like it much, because the big TV deals are in the US. That's what they're fishing for.

This is why I said that Canada should get a domestic soccer league at some point. 9 - 12 franchises can be supported even now, and decades into the future several cities will be capable of supporting a professional franchise.

Soccer is not yet a sport that Americans love en masse and dominate. It makes sense when you look at a sport like basketball or baseball where Americans completely dominate it. In such cases, it makes sense to tag along with an American league. In other cases, it doesn't make as much sense. Why tag along with a foreign league and be subject to their whims when Canadian markets seem better than American ones in terms of soccer support?

I agree with this. As has been said MLS is already in the only three Canadian cities it was interested in. And even then - even these Canadian cities are not great attendance draws on the road in the States for MLS. (The same problem exists on TV of course.)

In a relatively fragile league, you can't hurt your clubs too much at the gate with too many duds for home draws in a season.

Except for the Maple Leafs, both the Jays and Raptors are bad draws on the road, and for the NHL you can add the Habs who also draw decently stateside.

So as you said - MLS has topped out in Canada. Unless the league starts tanking and they start getting desperate for places to locate teams. But I don't really see this happening.

Basically we are going to be a country of 35 million people with only three first division pro soccer clubs for the foreseeable future.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by isaidso

Canada seems to be the only country on the planet that does that. This country will never fully develop and mature if we continue behaving like an appendage of another country. What are we, a colony?

This is a unique situation unlike any other in the world. We have most of our major cities located very near the border of a massively rich and powerful nation. Our major economic centers are entertwined with the American economy. Mexico only has mostly minor cities near the American border. If Mexico City, Monterey and Guadalajara were near the American border, it might be a different situation.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Welkin

This is a unique situation unlike any other in the world. We have most of our major cities located very near the border of a massively rich and powerful nation. Our major economic centers are entertwined with the American economy. Mexico only has mostly minor cities near the American border. If Mexico City, Monterey and Guadalajara were near the American border, it might be a different situation.

That may be so, but until we start paying attention to what needs tending to at home instead of eternally looking across the fence our country will remain stunted. It's not like we're some puny speck and it's no way to run a country. Cut the umbilical cord.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

People generally?

I find it's a unique phenomenon among Canadians.

I've never heard of Mexicans wanting their soccer league to have American franchises, or Mexicans wanting to abandon their domestic soccer league in favor of the MLS.

That is because soccer in Mexico is like hockey in Canada. Mexico is large enough and populated enough to support a thriving domestic league. Canada is not. Mexico has 113 million people. Canada only has 35 million. Mexico has 51 cities over 300,000 to support local teams. Canada only has 15 cities over 300,000. Soccer is huge in Mexico. Soccer is not huge in Canada. In order to have viable major league teams in soccer, Canada needs the U.S.. Mexico does not need the U.S. to have a viable soccer league.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Welkin

That is because soccer in Mexico is like hockey in Canada.

The irony of course being that we don't have a domestic top-tier hockey league in Canada...we just tag along with the Americans. But I fear we may be wandering into the turf of the sports culture thread...

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by isaidso

That may be so, but until we start paying attention to what needs tending to at home instead of eternally looking across the fence our country will remain stunted. It's not like we're some puny speck and it's no way to run a country. Cut the umbilical cord.

If we are stunted as a country (and I don't really agree with that) it is only because of our own internal policies and our own failures to properly benefit as a country from our abundant natural resources. We are hardly some puny speck. We are the 11th largest economy in the world from the 37th most populated country. We don't need to cut the cord between the us and the U.S.. We are doing just fine.

[Welkin]

Originally Posted by esquire

The irony of course being that we don't have a domestic top-tier hockey league in Canada...we just tag along with the Americans. But I fear we may be wandering into the turf of the sports culture thread...

Yeah I know what you mean, but in all reality, do you really want to trade games against teams from Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, New York and Boston for teams from Thunder Bay, Saskatoon, London and Halifax? Although it has been 20 years since a Canadian team has raised the Cup, I think our teams are better for having to compete against the American teams. At least when we win, we know we have beaten the best teams.

[Ramako]

Originally Posted by esquire

The irony of course being that we don't have a domestic top-tier hockey league in Canada...we just tag along with the Americans. But I fear we may be wandering into the turf of the sports culture thread...

I've never considered the NHL to be an American league that we're "tagging along" with, but a joint league. Ever since the original six, there have been more Canadian NHL teams per capita than American NHL teams. Given our relatively small population, we punch way above our weight with 7 teams. When you also consider the history of the league and the fact that Canadians make up over 50% of the players and staff, I think it's safe to call the NHL just as Canadian as it is American.

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

This is a pipe dream.

The MLS will soon add a franchise in New York City (NYC FC).

The next four likely expansions are Miami, Orlando, Atlanta and Minneapolis.

Beyond that, there are still so many American markets that have been untapped. San Antonio, North Carolina, Phoenix, San Diego, St. Louis, etc.

As someone living in the US, the majority of American MLS fans I've talked to already feel that there are too many Canadian franchises when considering that the league itself only has 19 franchises at the moment. No one in the US wants another Canadian team until the league expands to 26 - 30 franchises.

This is what Canadians don't understand. While we get super excited to belong to American leagues, people in the US generally don't like it. And the leagues themselves don't like it much, because the big TV deals are in the US. That's what they're fishing for.

This is why I said that Canada should get a domestic soccer league at some point. 9 - 12 franchises can be supported even now, and decades into the future several cities will be capable of supporting a professional franchise.

Soccer is not yet a sport that Americans love en masse and dominate. It makes sense when you look at a sport like basketball or baseball where Americans completely dominate it. In such cases, it makes sense to tag along with an American league. In other cases, it doesn't make as much sense. Why tag along with a foreign league and be subject to their whims when Canadian markets seem better than American ones in terms of soccer support?

Agreed 100%. Let's stop treating ourselves as a second class country. Obviously baseball and backetball would never work but a domestic soccer league could easily be just as highly regarded as MLS (which admittedly isn't a very high bar). We'd just have to get over this attitude of everything American being automatically superior.

Who knows, maybe FIFA will award us the World Cup on the condition that we start our own top tier league. That's what they did when the US hosted.

Originally Posted by Welkin

If we are stunted as a country (and I don't really agree with that) it is only because of our own internal policies and our own failures to properly benefit as a country from our abundant natural resources. We are hardly some puny speck. We are the 11th largest economy in the world from the 37th most populated country. We don't need to cut the cord between the us and the U.S.. We are doing just fine.

These are exactly the reasons we should be building a domestic soccer league instead of piggybacking off of MLS. We're not a puny speck but we're acting like it.

Originally Posted by Welkin

Yeah I know what you mean, but in all reality, do you really want to trade games against teams from Chicago, Detroit, Buffalo, New York and Boston for teams from Thunder Bay, Saskatoon, London and Halifax? Although it has been 20 years since a Canadian team has raised the Cup, I think our teams are better for having to compete against the American teams. At least when we win, we know we have beaten the best teams.

I don't get this attitude. Do Premier League fans complain about playing Norwich? Do Bundesliga fans complain about the presence of Augsburg?

I'm not saying the Canadian NHL teams should split from the league, since the NHL's roots are in Canada. I'm merely arguing tha it could be done and a Canadian league would play second fiddle to noone. Hockey seems to be the outlier when it comes to professional sports. It's following the NHL model of one or two mega-leagues instead of the soccer model of each country having a domestic league and the champion of each playing in a Champions League.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Ramako

I've never considered the NHL to be an American league that we're "tagging along" with, but a joint league. Ever since the original six, there have been more Canadian NHL teams per capita than American NHL teams. Given our relatively small population, we punch way above our weight with 7 teams. When you also consider the history of the league and the fact that Canadians make up over 50% of the players and staff, I think it's safe to call the NHL just as Canadian as it is American.

While I am generally for Canada having its own leagues, when it comes to hockey, I agree with you. We are represented reasonably well in the NHL. Although I think Quebec City and Hamilton should have teams.

Plus, it's a very, very old league for North American standards. And at its inception, it was a very regional league -- Great Lakes region and the Northeast. And that's OK, hockey was played in parts of the Northern US like in Canada.

But when it comes to soccer, there isn't that history and it isn't as difficult to change course right now. I think we should change course and form a national league.

[ScreamingViking]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This would all be great but if I had my choice and prioritized I would first like to see more love and support for the CFL and Canadian football in general, since it is a sport that only exists in Canada and is indigenous to the country.

As well as the CFL is doing right now, relative to where it was even 10 years ago, I think it can do better.

How much more support can it get? What are its goals, and how can it achieve them? What would that mean in terms of stadium infrastructure that also benefits cities outside of the CFL games that are played within it?

[osmo]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

This is a pipe dream.

The MLS will soon add a franchise in New York City (NYC FC).

The next four likely expansions are Miami, Orlando, Atlanta and Minneapolis.

Beyond that, there are still so many American markets that have been untapped. San Antonio, North Carolina, Phoenix, San Diego, St. Louis, etc.

As someone living in the US, the majority of American MLS fans I've talked to already feel that there are too many Canadian franchises when considering that the league itself only has 19 franchises at the moment. No one in the US wants another Canadian team until the league expands to 26 - 30 franchises.

This is what Canadians don't understand. While we get super excited to belong to American leagues, people in the US generally don't like it. And the leagues themselves don't like it much, because the big TV deals are in the US. That's what they're fishing for.

This is why I said that Canada should get a domestic soccer league at some point. 9 - 12 franchises can be supported even now, and decades into the future several cities will be capable of supporting a professional franchise.

Soccer is not yet a sport that Americans love en masse and dominate. It makes sense when you look at a sport like basketball or baseball where Americans completely dominate it. In such cases, it makes sense to tag along with an American league. In other cases, it doesn't make as much sense. Why tag along with a foreign league and be subject to their whims when Canadian markets seem better than American ones in terms of soccer support?

Ottawa nearly got a team a few years back. The MLS does not care where teams I as long as they make money. Nobody watches MLS on TV, it gets a good content deal from ESPN and the league butters it's bread from local gate deals and sponsorships. It has been the most successful expansion method to date and in Canada you have more stable upward support for soccer then what is present in the states. Ottawa will have a MLS franchise before Miami does. Truth. Atlanta is easily the worst sports market in America, no rush to go there. The Braves couldn't even "sell out" their playoff games. That city is a joke for sports.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by osmo

Ottawa nearly got a team a few years back. The MLS does not care where teams I as long as they make money. Nobody watches MLS on TV, it gets a good content deal from ESPN and the league butters it's bread from local gate deals and sponsorships. It has been the most successful expansion method to date and in Canada you have more stable upward support for soccer then what is present in the states. Ottawa will have a MLS franchise before Miami does. .

This is true about Ottawa almost getting a team a few years ago but I think that ship has sailed since MLS was not as mature a league then as it is now.

They are now thinking of the next phase in the development of their league and this means they have the NHL in their sights.

Perceptions are very important in pro sports (especially in the US) and MLS, not unlike the NHL, does not want to give the impression that it has a bunch of Canadian "filler" teams because most Americans don't care about their game.

Ideally, if the NHL had well supported clubs in all of the major cities in the U.S., that league wouldn't see any need for having teams in Canadian cities beyond the big three (Toronto, Montreal, Vancouver) either. Trust me on that.