Stadiums and Arenas of Canada

[Mister F]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

In Canada, I feel like having a US team come and play is almost considered a prestige thing. People in Toronto seem to care more when the Boston Bruins are in town than when the Winnipeg Jets are in town.

That's only because they're in the same division and because of the recent history between the two teams, not because they're American. People get even more excited when they play Montreal. I do agree with your point though, people get strangely excited about Canadian teams in American leagues, even if it's second rate leagues like MLS. It's a phenomenon that has resulted in a very weak domestic professional sports scene.

Originally Posted by elly63

And we need superlative train service for a World Cup, why?

Well I was speaking in general terms, not because of a World Cup specifically. But seeing as it's the biggest sporting event in the world, a lot more people would be travelling between our cities. In areas like the Windsor-Quebec corridor, rail is the most efficient way of moving large numbers of people.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Well, considering Qatar is hosting it, there's no doubt in my mind that Canada *can* host it, even if our sports infrastructure is inferior to the US (in terms of number of suitable stadia).

What country isn't inferior to the greatest sports business and media machine on the planet

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

But should we?

What are the benefits? Could the money be better spent?

Two long-term benefits I could see:
- More stadia for CFL expansion
- Increased popularity of soccer

But with respect to the popularity of soccer, while it is low relative to other sports, the Canadian MLS franchises have done rather well. But as long as Canada is merely a part of the MLS, it will be very difficult for Canada to get more cities involved. Especially when there are large parts of the US that still don't have a team (I don't think even Florida has a team).

This is about as off-topic as it can get, but Canada should have its own national soccer league. Even with our current population, we could have 9 to 12 teams, and there are quite a few cities that, in a few decades, will likely pass the threshold for being able to support a professional sports franchise.

You make good points about why we should host economically speaking. But larger 40k WC stadiums are not what the CFL wants, they want smaller intimate stadiums under 30k in the east.

As for a major Canadian soccer league, if you've studied the aborted example of the CUSL you would see how it is not feasible. While people scoffed years ago about the proposed CSA pyramid of teams and leagues (MLS, NASL), it has basically come to fruition. The last realistic step would be a nationwide league of youth teams based loosely on the junior hockey example. Eventually this pyramid will start to bear fruit as the MLS academies are already beginning to funnel players to the NTs in larger numbers.

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

I don't think that's the right way to characterize it.

I just think that if we're going to spend $4 billion on a 'big project,' I'd rather that we have a maglev train connecting Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal.

It'd be a waste of money considering our low population, but still more useful than an 80,000 capacity field in Toronto built as a cathedral to a sport that has, at best, lukewarm popularity in Canada.

A high speed train between Calgary and Edmonton would be far more realistic, than one between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal.

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

A high speed train between Calgary and Edmonton would be far more realistic, than one between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal.

How is that?

[Jets4Life]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

How is that?

1. Much shorter distance
2. Fraction of the cost of the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal line
3. Alberta, per-capita is the wealthiest Canadian province, by far.
4. There is a incredible amount of commuting between the two cities.
5. The Calgary-Edmonton high speed rail line has been studied more, has strong political backing (Alison Redford said it was one of her top priorities).


The main issue that will have the Alberta high speed rail line built first, IMO, is cost. The Alberta line that was preferred, after an extensive study, would cost well under $2 billion, well the Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal line will cost over 5 times that amount.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by saffronleaf

Well, considering Qatar is hosting it, there's no doubt in my mind that Canada *can* host it, even if our sports infrastructure is inferior to the US (in terms of number of suitable stadia).

But should we?

What are the benefits? Could the money be better spent?

Two long-term benefits I could see:
- More stadia for CFL expansion
- Increased popularity of soccer

That's really what it boils down to. There is no question we could... all it takes is enough dollars and cents. But should we?

For a country that doesn't even have a domestic soccer league (like all sports except football, we just ride the USA's coattails and take as few teams as they're prepared to let us have), I'm not convinced that a multibillion dollar one-month soccer extravaganza is really the way to go.

Canada would probably get far more bang for the buck in terms of drawing people to soccer by putting up 100 high-quality, 2 to 5 thousand seat pitches in communities from coast to coast - with a focus on the small/midsize cities that lack proper venues. I'm talking about the North Bays, Brandons and Yarmouths of the country. Sure it's not as sexy as seeing Ronaldinho or whoever score the big winning goal in front of 80,000 people in Toronto, but if you want to encourage people to take up the game I'd say a more grassroots-oriented approach would yield better results.

[FrankieFlowerpot]

That's the first time I've seen the words sexy and Ronaldinho in the same sentence

[FrankieFlowerpot]

Originally Posted by elly63

Sorry, I don't buy that. Ann Arbor of course is not a fair example as we know it is the home of the University of Michigan, one of the larger universities in the US. Also just because it has a large capacity does that make it better? Could anyone on this forum sit here with a straight face and say they would accept a new stadium in Canada constructed of bench seating.

Iconic yes, better?

Was down there last year to see Michigan vs Michigan State.



The spectacle of 114,000 inside a stadium is something to behold - the comfort level is something else however - it's very uncomfortable

[elly63]

Originally Posted by esquire

That's really what it boils down to. There is no question we could... all it takes is enough dollars and cents. But should we?

For a country that doesn't even have a domestic soccer league (like all sports except football, we just ride the USA's coattails and take as few teams as they're prepared to let us have), I'm not convinced that a multibillion dollar one-month soccer extravaganza is really the way to go.

Canada would probably get far more bang for the buck in terms of drawing people to soccer by putting up 100 high-quality, 2 to 5 thousand seat pitches in communities from coast to coast - with a focus on the small/midsize cities that lack proper venues. I'm talking about the North Bays, Brandons and Yarmouths of the country. Sure it's not as sexy as seeing Ronaldinho or whoever score the big winning goal in front of 80,000 people in Toronto, but if you want to encourage people to take up the game I'd say a more grassroots-oriented approach would yield better results.

Praise Allah! The only thing I might add, though, is that a Canadian WC might inspire a generation of kids to motivate them to get involved and strive to the highest levels. Then again it might not

Vancouver 2010 was truly a sea change in Canadian sports, will it pay dividends down the road, who knows?

[The_Architect]

Originally Posted by FrankieFlowerpot

Was down there last year to see Michigan vs Michigan State.

The spectacle of 114,000 inside a stadium is something to behold - the comfort level is something else however - it's very uncomfortable

Sightlines aside the Toronto-Detroit Winter Classic in that stadium is going to be a spectacular sight.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

That's really what it boils down to. There is no question we could... all it takes is enough dollars and cents. But should we?

For a country that doesn't even have a domestic soccer league (like all sports except football, we just ride the USA's coattails and take as few teams as they're prepared to let us have), I'm not convinced that a multibillion dollar one-month soccer extravaganza is really the way to go.

Canada would probably get far more bang for the buck in terms of drawing people to soccer by putting up 100 high-quality, 2 to 5 thousand seat pitches in communities from coast to coast - with a focus on the small/midsize cities that lack proper venues. I'm talking about the North Bays, Brandons and Yarmouths of the country. Sure it's not as sexy as seeing Ronaldinho or whoever score the big winning goal in front of 80,000 people in Toronto, but if you want to encourage people to take up the game I'd say a more grassroots-oriented approach would yield better results.

This would all be great but if I had my choice and prioritized I would first like to see more love and support for the CFL and Canadian football in general, since it is a sport that only exists in Canada and is indigenous to the country.

[esquire]

Originally Posted by Acajack

This would all be great but if I had my choice and prioritized I would first like to see more love and support for the CFL and Canadian football in general, since it is a sport that only exists in Canada and is indigenous to the country.

I agree. And the reality is that the main tenant of every major stadium in this country except Skydome is a CFL team... it is CFL teams that will be occupying new facilities for the next 50 years. I don't see why it should take a two-week event like the Pan-Am/Commonwealth Games to get what are essentially going to serve as homes for CFL teams built.

If the goal is to get new CFL stadiums, then instead of spending massive amounts of money to meet FIFA World Cup standards, let's just continue building proper football stadiums instead. As a nation we're making remarkable progress... Winnipeg's is built, Ottawa and Hamilton's are on the way, and Regina's is next. Then we just need Toronto and Halifax to get 'em built and we'll be all set.

[osmo]

America didn't have a domestic league either till 1994. It was one of the requirements of their bid and the modern MLS was born from that. The MLS with its fool proof method will expand to more Canadian cities. Sharing with CFL franchises makes the most sense but with the CFLs fetish obsession with turf it makes it more difficult to do.

Calgary and Ottawa should have teams in 4-5 years. Toronto with tsnd strong support for shitty TFC could handle another team in the suburbs. If the Argos move to Vaughn then a MLS/CFL combo could make sense but an Wong hold my breath since MLSE would never let it happen unless it owned the 2nd MLS team.

[elly63]

The problem is teams need the government to help pay for the new facilities and no federal government (for the most part) is going to be seen helping a professional franchise that should be able to pay its own way.

If the team is able to hook up with an educational institution (Winnipeg or hopefully York) or play host to a multi-sport event (Hamilton) then it's a win win for everybody.

Now if Calgary could bid on the Commonwealth Games on their present U of C site

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by esquire

I don't see why it should take a two-week event like the Pan-Am/Commonwealth Games to get what are essentially going to serve as homes for CFL teams built.

Somewhat ironically, that's what has always worked best and probably what will continue to work. It's politically sellable to build stadiums for international events for which the interest of Canadians pales in comparison to that for the CFl.

Just look at Commonwealth Stadium - built for the Commonwealth Games! Woo-hoo! Do people talk about the CWG around your water cooler much?

And even better, the stadium was expanded by 18,000 seats with taxpayer money for the.... World University Games! Which are, of course, on every true sports fan's calendar!

[elly63]

Originally Posted by osmo

The MLS with its fool proof method will expand to more Canadian cities. Sharing with CFL franchises makes the most sense but with the CFLs fetish obsession with turf it makes it more difficult to do.

Calgary and Ottawa should have teams in 4-5 years.

Can't see the MLS expanding to any more Canadian cities for quite a while, if ever. There's plenty of American markets and most premier division soccer leagues max out at 20 teams and they're at 22.

In the next five years only Edmonton and Ottawa potentially have a shot and Edmonton would need a new stadium as they would never play out of Commonwealth permanently. They are looking at plans for a 10k stadium IIRC. Even this has the proviso that MLS already has the major Canadian markets and really doesn't want any more.

The CFL doesn't have any fetish with artificial surfaces. Most of the stadiums are owned by the cities where they are situated. The CFL takes what they get. Unlike some stadiums in the US, Canada has to make good use of its stadiums and can't afford them to be idle. That means a durable and flexible playing surface and that means artificial turf not a turf surface.

[elly63]

Originally Posted by Acajack

And even better, the stadium was expanded by 18,000 seats with taxpayer money for the.... World University Games! Which are, of course, on every true sports fan's calendar!

Well, they were in 1983 in Edmonton when we beat an American team with Charles Barkley and Karl Malone, and in the final, Canada beat Yugoslavia, led by Drazen Petrovic.

And unfortunately, the event was marred by tragedy when Soviet diver Sergei Chalibashvili died eight days after hitting his head on the diving platform while attempting a reverse 3½ in competition. Kind of similar to the unfortunate death of the luger in Vancouver.

It's too bad that all those big events Pan Ams, Commonwealth and Universiade mean so little now as compared to what they used to.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by Acajack

Somewhat ironically, that's what has always worked best and probably what will continue to work. It's politically sellable to build stadiums for international events for which the interest of Canadians pales in comparison to that for the CFl.

Just look at Commonwealth Stadium - built for the Commonwealth Games! Woo-hoo! Do people talk about the CWG around your water cooler much?

And even better, the stadium was expanded by 18,000 seats with taxpayer money for the.... World University Games! Which are, of course, on every true sports fan's calendar!

That's what always gets me too. The CFL is important to us culturally, supported by millions, yet spending tax dollars to build stadia isn't acceptable. Along comes some event we'll revel in for 2 weeks, but really have no deep interest in and the pocket book comes out.

I suppose people feel when you welcome the world you have to put your best foot forward, but we never seem to acknowledge that things like the CFL is also what the world sees when they visit us. It's just that the magnifying glass isn't shone so brightly.

If all the teams in the CFL were community owned I imagine more public money would flow their way. It can't be seen that private interests are benefiting no matter how many others benefit from it. We'll continue relying on one off international events to build national stadia, arenas, and other sports infrastructure.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by osmo

The MLS with its fool proof method will expand to more Canadian cities. Sharing with CFL franchises makes the most sense but with the CFLs fetish obsession with turf it makes it more difficult to do.

The MLS will likely never have national relevancy in Canada as they have little interest in expanding across our country. It will remain a 3 city phenomenon.

Secondly, the CFL does not have a turf obsession they have an obsession with keeping costs under control. Football is rougher on grass than soccer and keeping it in good condition is expensive. The NFL can afford to maintain grass fields and have their stadia sit empty 316 days of the year. Stadia in Canada do not have that luxury.

[saffronleaf]

Originally Posted by Jets4Life

A high speed train between Calgary and Edmonton would be far more realistic, than one between Toronto-Ottawa-Montreal.

I was merely saying that if the government wants to spend billions on a prestige project, then this would be my dream project. I agree it isn't feasible. After all, I didn't even say HSR (which typically refers to trains that travel approx. 200-300 km/h, but magnetic levitation trains, which can reach speeds up to 500 km/h). So no doubt it is unrealistic and probably unfeasible.

Anyways, for reasons you've mentioned in other posts, I think a Calgary - Edmonton HSR may be more feasible in the future. But obviously, no one outside of Alberta would really care about it.

But still, if Canada wanted to spend billions on a prestige project, a maglev train with top speeds near 500 km/h between Toronto - Ottawa - Montreal would be awesome.