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  #8921  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 3:32 PM
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  #8922  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 4:01 PM
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Nobody is talking about it, but i'm sure the U of A has got to be rethinking taking on additional office space downtown? Although, I would think that moving a faculty like business would be a big benefit to those students.

Same goes for all the performance space and cultural stuff north of city hall. given that the majority of cuts will come down on the arts (and rightfully so) things like additional performance and theater space will likely never see any light.
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  #8923  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 4:09 PM
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^depends. They have a very clear message that the north campus is med/eng and need to create space there for expansion plans which means pushing out Arts/Fine Arts etc. to other spaces. I think there could be some great synergies by moving some departments/programs downtown into the EDACC, but yes, how palatable it is in the near term given the budget cuts will be interesting to say the least.
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  #8924  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 5:07 PM
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  #8925  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 6:24 PM
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Originally Posted by SHOFEAR View Post
Nobody is talking about it, but i'm sure the U of A has got to be rethinking taking on additional office space downtown? Although, I would think that moving a faculty like business would be a big benefit to those students.

Same goes for all the performance space and cultural stuff north of city hall. given that the majority of cuts will come down on the arts (and rightfully so) things like additional performance and theater space will likely never see any light.
emphasis added...

and rightfully so???? all that is managed with comments like that - and this is not directed solely at you because you not alone in making them - is to convey a complete lack of understanding of "the arts" and their impact on our lives and on our economy.

from http://artssquared.wordpress.com/2013/08...sledgehammer-to-playground/#comment-1517 :

"Dear Dean Cormack, Robin Cowan, President Samarasekera, and Minister Lukaszuk,

I am writing today with grave concerns as an alumnus of the University of Alberta in one of the areas affected by the unnecessary cuts. I cannot speak as much to the BA programs and other sections that were cut (though I do wonder at the wisdom of cutting something like Ukrainian in a city that has a fairly large population of Ukrainian decent, or of removing a large section of languages and studies in areas where we have increased immigration). I question how much money this actually saves, or if it is an ill-advised attempt to appease the advanced Education minister by offering up a selection of arts courses that were dropped. If we had a properly managed revenue base in this province, we might not be in this position at all, which is what makes it so tragic.

I would like to bring to your attention the two design program routes that were dropped. I don’t know the numbers that were mentioned in the reasoning behind the decision for those routes and the other courses in design (though if you have those statistics to forward and can release the info, I would be quite interested), but I would like to make you aware of the concerns such an action raises in me, and a number of other alumni in and outside the print community I have talked with.

I find it interesting, though, that the phrasing was “less than 10 majors enrolled”; not a word about the actual class size or enrolment of people who either needed the credit in other majors that were related, or a mention of the large portion who, while not a printmaking major, might as well have been one; there were a few of those. I was one of these students, and have gone on to study an MFA in Printmaking this year at the University of Tennessee, one of the top three schools in the States for Printmaking, with another U of A alumni in Printmaking a year ahead of me, and a former U of A graduate student a professor there. Without going through the program and the experiences I did, I would not be where I am today. With the loss of this program, those students who go to the U of A after me will no longer have the options open to them that I have had, or opportunities for success.

From what I remember as a student even three years ago, the classes that set apart the Printmaking route were usually only up to about 10 students in a single time block. This 10 included BFA, BDes of more than one route, and both 400- and 500- level students from each degree. On paper, I know it was four classes that were held in the same time block for a total of 10 students; each of those classes technically had only one to five students registered even though there were 12 in the room. I also know that there was always, usually starting only a few days to even a day after registration opened, a waiting list to get in. There were only two classes of 18 each admitted to the BDes / BFA program as incoming students to start with in my first year, and those numbers don’t change too much year to year. It isn’t a large program because it is a highly competitive program with few spots available; due to the nature of the subject matter, it is both desirable and necessary to have a small class size. A small number does not indicate lack of interest, it indicates a high standard and the ability to choose only the best students out the larger pool of applicants. Knowing this information, I know that, yes, it is likely that less than 10 majors took the class consistently — but what is not mentioned or taken into account in the media release is the other information I have described above which explains and gives those numbers context and meaning.

One of the University of Alberta’s goals has been for the past few years to “[become] one of the Top 20 public universities in the world by 2020.” It’s an admirable goal, though not necessarily achievable given current conditions and a lack of support or understanding by the shortsighted people in the legislature. That does not mean we should give up; we should still try, and cutting away programs like this will irrevocably damage the university and larger community in many ways not at first apparent.

What really puzzles me is why the University is throwing away the progress that has been made in Printmaking, especially given that the links between design and printmaking are one of the factors contributing to success. We are already one of the top universities in Canada for print. We are one of the top in North America – we have a very good reputation and are quite well known. When I was applying for an MFA in the States, everyone knew and respected greatly our print program. Our grad students come from very prestigious programs all over the world to Alberta study because they know it is a good program. Given the current feeling and lack of regard at home for the program, how soon do you think all that progress will disappear? While Lukaszuk may be content to turn the U of A into the equivalent of a student puppy-mill, churning out degrees for the oil giants up north, that is not a vision that anyone on campus should want to be a part of. A university is not a factory to turn people into oil workers, nor should we think that way. Courses should not be offered based on government dictatorship, but on diversity in courses offered; a degree offers freedom to innovate and explore, not a cookie-cutter approach. If we remove diversity and unique programs from campus, we lose an essential part of the education that will be so important for students in future.

I’m especially glad that I am studying abroad, given what is happening at home – I’ve been keeping track of the devastation with horror. I might add that this sentiment is shared by the print community in Knoxville, many of whom have never been to Edmonton, but who know people within the community, or know of our reputation, as they and I watch a program they know about start to fall apart for no good reason. This decision does not just affect Edmonton – it carries direct repercussions elsewhere. If this continues, and in a few years time I finish my MFA degree – I’m not sure that I want to come back to what was a vibrant community on leaving. Edmonton’s larger print community will be severely impacted in some ways if the University program is cut into, as there is a lot of come and go between them. Why would I want come back to a place so inhospitable to printmaking and the arts? Why would other people come back? The print community in Tennessee will know what’s happened; their grads will not be told about our program here, nor will it be pushed as a good option for study in other places in the States or elsewhere. New Alberta grads will move away, or there simply will be no new grads, as people move elsewhere to study at the undergraduate level. Edmonton, and Alberta, will lose something very important to the fabric of our city because of this.

I ask you to please reconsider the damage this will do to printmaking, and to the Bachelor of Design degree in removing this route from the curriculum. Not only will it negatively impact both Design and Printmaking students, it will cascade into the quality and reputation of the program overall, and affect areas outside the University community. Let’s not let Lukaszuk destroy in a year what took decades to build.

Kelsey Stephenson,

BDes, with an emphasis on Printmaking"

it's not enough to simply point out that you and others who share your "rightfully so" opinion of the arts -which unfortunately includes some in government - are wrong. there needs to be a greater understanding of how and why you are wrong and for that i have to thank kelsey for sharing his knowledge and experience so eloquently and hope that he does not object to my sharing it here.
     
     
  #8926  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 7:40 PM
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^ Very well said Ken. I have a strong technical background but also spent years in an arts program when I first attended university right out of high school. I fully appreciate how important a well rounded education is, and some of the non-monitary value that can be gained through a vide variety of disciplines.

I should also note that some of the people with the most limited reading, writing and comprehension skills I have met have been engineering graduates. It's sad, but true.
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  #8927  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 7:48 PM
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something has to change though. For the UofA to become an elite institution you can't have a huge number of people taking classes and burning up resources because they don't know what they want to do or dick around taking things like *insert cultural group* studies. Grant Mac can take that on, the U of A should focus on research in Engineering/sciences/medicine etc.

The U of A's mandate has never been to develop well rounded individuals for the workplace. It exists to pump out the next generation of academia.
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  #8928  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 7:51 PM
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^ It'll never be a top university with that mandate
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  #8929  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 8:11 PM
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For what it's worth I graduated civil engineering in 2009. It's painfully obvious that the UofA doesn't give a shit about creating well rounded people to succeed in a work environment... It's to take 100 students and find the 5 who are going to spend the rest of their life working in labs and publish work.

If they don't care about producing well wrounded individuals in that faculty, why would a faculty exist to create well rounded individuals? It's of no interest to them.
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  #8930  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 8:25 PM
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Originally Posted by SHOFEAR View Post
For what it's worth I graduated civil engineering in 2009. It's painfully obvious that the UofA doesn't give a shit about creating well rounded people to succeed in a work environment... It's to take 100 students and find the 5 who are going to spend the rest of their life working in labs and publish work.

If they don't care about producing well wrounded individuals in that faculty, why would a faculty exist to create well rounded individuals? It's of no interest to them.
for what it's worth, you seem intent on proving that being technically well trained and capable is too often very far removed from being educated...
     
     
  #8931  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 8:46 PM
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Jesus Christ. Why is this so hard for you to understand. Do people pay $50,000 a year tuitions in other countries to learn soft skills at their elite universities? No, they go to institutions that are more catered to those disciplines and make financial sense. Just because our system is set up so that the individual only pays a fraction of the cost, doesn't mean we can't have other institutions that can be set up to more effieciently develop those skills in the individuals that want them.

Sure, many individuals would rather take womans studies at the U of A rather than Gmac, one is clearly far more respected than the other. But the U of A doesn't offer technical courses like NAIT does... should they offer those degrees too?


I'm willing to bet Gmac can offer most art programs at a fraction of the cost the U of A can.

U of A- academia
Gmac - Well rounded individuals
Nait - Technical skills
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  #8932  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 9:14 PM
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Engineering is a particularly bad example, as it is one of the few professional programs one can enter into directly from high school. The majority of students are well aware of this and have no interest in having a well-rounded education, and simply want to be trained. Between this, and the increasingly rigorous requirements to maintain certification of these programs, engineering degrees at the U of A and elsewhere are much more 'training' than 'education' IMO. I am also saying this as a graduate said program. I learned more critical thinking and creative skills in the few arts courses I was able to take as electives than in any of the required technical courses (despite being 'encouraged' by the faculty to take something more "useful").

Yes, universities should be concerned about producing well rounded individuals, whether it be for society or academia. Changing thoughts about educations and government, economic pressures, however are making that difficult.
     
     
  #8933  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 9:15 PM
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Edmonton is no longer a city that has one institution that has to provide everything to everyone. The U of A is very important to this city and it is crucial it continues to provide the type of research that benefits our economy. In order to do so it will need to refocus to ensure it's dollars are spent as wisely as possible.

Should a bach arts degree be availible for everybody, within reason, sure. But it is not the U of A's obligation to provide this. If Gmac can fill the gap, and do it more efficiently everybody wins right? You want to blame the government for cutting funding...go ahead. But the blame shouldn't be tossed at the university for making such decisions, and at those of us who recognize that the university is making the right decisions based on the cards they are being dealt.
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  #8934  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 9:21 PM
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I think someone could use some of those critical thinking skills that have apparently been missing from the curriculum now for some time
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  #8935  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 9:32 PM
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. I learned more critical thinking and creative skills in the few arts courses I was able to take as electives than in any of the required technical courses (despite being 'encouraged' by the faculty to take something more "useful").

.
Ha. I always laughed at the people who were suckered into taking the recomended courses. Way to make your semester much harder than it had to be. Hmmm...being curved against 60 engineering students or 60 students from a different faculty with a lower admission standard where they weren't trying to cull half of their first years....
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  #8936  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 9:33 PM
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Jesus Christ. Why is this so hard for you to understand. Do people pay $50,000 a year tuitions in other countries to learn soft skills at their elite universities? No, they go to institutions that are more catered to those disciplines and make financial sense. Just because our system is set up so that the individual only pays a fraction of the cost, doesn't mean we can't have other institutions that can be set up to more effieciently develop those skills in the individuals that want them.

Sure, many individuals would rather take womans studies at the U of A rather than Gmac, one is clearly far more respected than the other. But the U of A doesn't offer technical courses like NAIT does... should they offer those degrees too?


I'm willing to bet Gmac can offer most art programs at a fraction of the cost the U of A can.

U of A- academia
Gmac - Well rounded individuals
Nait - Technical skills
i'm pretty sure the misunderstanding here is not mine...

the top arts and humanities schools in the world ( http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/wo...ject-ranking/subject/arts-and-humanities ) might surprise you:

harvard
university of chicago
princeton
australian national university
cambridge
oxford
university of california, berkely
university college, london
university of toronto
university of edinburgh
yale
university of michigan
university of california, los angeles
rutgers
new york university
cornell

and if you don't think tuition and housing and other costs aren't easily 50k per year at most of these institutions and many others, you probably need to educate yourself on those costs as well as on the value of a good arts education to the individual and to society.
     
     
  #8937  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 9:37 PM
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I think someone could use some of those critical thinking skills that have apparently been missing from the curriculum now for some time
So what would you do if you were running the place and needed to cut costs? "bureaucratic efficiencies" ?
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  #8938  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 9:57 PM
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So what would you do if you were running the place and needed to cut costs? "bureaucratic efficiencies" ?
i know you were asking 240glt and not me but according to your own ranking above, perhaps engineering should be moved to nait... you know, the institution you noted as best suited to the provision of technical skills?
     
     
  #8939  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 10:01 PM
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i'm pretty sure the misunderstanding here is not mine...

the top arts and humanities schools in the world ( http://www.timeshighereducation.co.uk/wo...ject-ranking/subject/arts-and-humanities ) might surprise you:

harvard
university of chicago
princeton
australian national university
cambridge
oxford
university of california, berkely
university college, london
university of toronto
university of edinburgh
yale
university of michigan
university of california, los angeles
rutgers
new york university
cornell

and if you don't think tuition and housing and other costs aren't easily 50k per year at most of these institutions and many others, you probably need to educate yourself on those costs as well as on the value of a good arts education to the individual and to society.
wow. a list dominated by universities that allow wealthy individual to get a degree prior to getting a patronage position at your family company. I'm sure those produce some of the most well rounded individuals. Is that what you want the U of A should strive to be?

You (and others) have a misunderstanding that I think the arts are useless. They have a role to play, but the U of A is in a position where it has to cut costs. Thankfully, they are being wise about it and cutting certain arts programs that are rather irrelevant. Or are you going to tell me that Ukrainan folklore is ket to producing a "well rounded individual"? I would imagine that if faced with further cuts, they will continue find art programs that can be cut that if there wasn't outrage from overly sensitive students (spare me, they exist in every faculty) neither you nor I would even know they existed in the first place. What would you do? Spread cuts evenly across all departments? Is that better?
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  #8940  
Old Posted Aug 30, 2013, 10:09 PM
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i know you were asking 240glt and not me but according to your own ranking above, perhaps engineering should be moved to nait... you know, the institution you noted as best suited to the provision of technical skills?
ooooh good one. You got me there.
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