The Great Canadian Skyline Thread! II

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by giallo

As impressive as TO's boom is (and it is impressive), it's still far behind Chinese cities like Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Wuhan, Hangzhou, Nanjing, Chengdu, Shenyang, Chongqing. They are so undercounted (as isaidso already stated), it almost makes comparisons like this pointless.

That's quite possible, but without proper documentation it's a big assumption to claim that Toronto is far behind all those cities you listed. All you can claim is that the Chinese data is likely an under count. It should also be added that construction has come to a complete halt in a number of Chinese cities so what was true a year ago, may not be true today.

[logan5]

These Chinese cities are over the top.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/stephen_chee11/7073431509/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/jalvaran/9077415016/

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by isaidso

That's quite possible, but without proper documentation it's a big assumption to claim that Toronto is far behind all those cities you listed. All you can claim is that the Chinese data is likely an under count. It should also be added that construction has come to a complete halt in a number of Chinese cities so what was true a year ago, may not be true today.

I can't believe there is an undercount because there are many members from China here at SSP and SSC to fill in the gaps if any in the count.

[giallo]

Originally Posted by isaidso

That's quite possible, but without proper documentation it's a big assumption to claim that Toronto is far behind all those cities you listed. All you can claim is that the Chinese data is likely an under count. It should also be added that construction has come to a complete halt in a number of Chinese cities so what was true a year ago, may not be true today.

It's true. I can't come up with data suggesting otherwise, and it would a tireless effort for me to go around Shanghai (or any other Chinese city foe that matter) taking pictures of every development.

While many smaller cities in China are experiencing a collapse of their construction industry, I listed those other cities in particular as they are still booming. Remember, people in China can really only invest their money in the stock market (which many a wary of) or Chinese real estate, so it's one of the main factors a second tier city like Nanjing has (what it looked to me last time I was there) over 300 high-rises going up. It's mega development after mega development based on pure speculation. It's not stable by any measure, but the sheer scale of development in these Chinese cities far exceeds anything that's happening in North America.


Caltrane, if you seriously think that Chongqing only has 20 buildings UC, then I don't know what to tell you, man.

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by travis3000

I was looking on the Emporis database last night to see what cities in North America have the most skyscrapers (defined as buildings over 100m/328ft) . I'm sure everyone in here has been on this site many times. I was intrigued at a few things:

-Canada has five cities on the list... Mississauga (19), Montreal (32), Vancouver (47), Calgary (51), and Toronto (169)

-Toronto is 3rd on the list in North America after NYC (582), and Chicago (289) which to be honest didn't surprise me much

-The difference is huge between third place Toronto (169) and fourth place Miami (79)

-With the planned additions of both Herald Sq buildings, Telus Sky, the new Manulife building, City Centre 1, Eighth Ave Place, and Kings On Fourth, plus a few other buildings that materialize in the meantime, by 2020 Calgary will easily break the 60 barrier which, depending on growth of these other cities, could take it ahead of Los Angeles (56), Atlanta (56), and Honolulu (59). Regardless, Calgary will remain a strong 2nd for the most skyscrapers in Canada and potentially move from #10 in North America to about #7 or #8 over the next decade.

-With literally dozens upon dozens of "100m+ skyscrapers" currently under construction or proposed in Toronto, the current number of 169 is sure to increase drastically between now and the next decade. TO will def exceed the 200 number by that time and in my opinion will hit Chicago's numbers by about 2030 or perhaps a bit later. Because Chicago is still adding to their skyline, I think TO will remain at #3 for the foreseeable future.

-I was actually pretty shocked how low Montreal was. When you are in the city, you get the idea that it's bigger than it really is. At only 32 structures above 100m, Montreal ranks 17th in North America. It's probably the excellent street layout and urban feel as well as the mixed use of old churches, historical buildings, and skyscrapers that gives the illusion that the city is actually taller than it is.

How often do they update this list? Do they count a building once it's 100% completed, topped out, or do they include buildings under construction? Either way, I found the data very interesting and am super stoked to see how this list changes over the next 10-20 years as Canada continues it's building boom .

I'm curious which source Emporis uses for its height data as the numbers are consistent inflated for those we have a known maximum allowable height. I don't think 169 is too far off the mark though.

I think you're underestimating the amount of construction. Toronto currently has 70 "skyscrapers" under construction. 300 is not out of the question come 2020. At current levels, Toronto will be eclipsing Chicago in the number of 150 metre towers by 2030.

[kw5150]

1, 2, 3, 5, 12, 65, 278, 367..........I lost count. Wow.

Originally Posted by logan5

These Chinese cities are over the top.


http://www.flickr.com/photos/stephen_chee11/7073431509/


http://www.flickr.com/photos/jalvaran/9077415016/

[kw5150]

Love this shot of Calgary. most of those mid rise old buildings still exist too! Glad we keep these ones.

Originally Posted by Surrealplaces

Calgary in the 1940's


Calagry by Kingsdude/Dave, on Flickr

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by giallo

It's true. I can't come up with data suggesting otherwise, and it would a tireless effort for me to go around Shanghai (or any other Chinese city foe that matter) taking pictures of every development.

While many smaller cities in China are experiencing a collapse of their construction industry, I listed those other cities in particular as they are still booming. Remember, people in China can really only invest their money in the stock market (which many a wary of) or Chinese real estate, so it's one of the main factors a second tier city like Nanjing has (what it looked to me last time I was there) over 300 high-rises going up. It's mega development after mega development based on pure speculation. It's not stable by any measure, but the sheer scale of development in these Chinese cities far exceeds anything that's happening in North America.

I had a lot of help from Chinese forumers, but we came to the conclusion that this was the best we could do. It was better to include them with a place holder that we worked to arrive at rather than discard the whole list as most of the non-Chinese data was quite good. They suggested that there were only a handful of Chinese cities that were substantially under counted.

I suppose China doesn't have a good history of public disclosure which explains a great deal.

[Dylan Leblanc]

Just today I was reading in the G&M about a building in Calgary that's a highrise residential with a fire station in it, then I notice it in this photo! It's the green tower at bottom-centre

Originally Posted by kw5150

Some aerials from: http://peakexperienceimagery.com/

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

I can't believe there is an undercount because there are many members from China here at SSP and SSC to fill in the gaps if any in the count.

That's true, but the problem was lack of data in the public domain. Some projects have no information at all while some projects have started but been abandoned. What did seem clear was that the frenetic pace of construction has stopped in lots of Chinese cities due to real estate speculation. Others steam ahead: Tianjin, Shenzhen, etc.

Speaking with them I was left feeling that Toronto does stack up well even compared to Chinese cities although a few seem destined to dwarf us. We're doing phenomenally well, and certainly developing faster than any city outside of Asia. Toronto's boom shouldn't be dismissed as it truly is a historic transformation that we're witnessing. I just hope the growth continues for another 10-20 years while avoiding the frothy pace we saw in 2011-12.

Notice we pass Chicago in 100m+ buildings 'completed + under construction + proposed'? We just need those proposals to become constructions and we'll reel that sucker in.

[MolsonExport]

Originally Posted by giallo

As impressive as TO's boom is (and it is impressive), it's still far behind Chinese cities like Beijing, Shanghai, Shenzhen, Guangzhou, Wuhan, Hangzhou, Nanjing, Chengdu, Shenyang, Chongqing. They are so undercounted (as isaidso already stated), it almost makes comparisons like this pointless.

Indeed. All so obvious when you see it in person. First hand experience staggers the mind. Behold Pudong then and now. Bear in mind that Pudong is but a fraction of the skyscraper density on the other side (Puxi)

Originally Posted by animatedmartian

The Atlantic has a comparison of Shanghai 26 years ago compared to now (July 31, 2013).


http://www.theatlantic.com/infocus/2013/08/26-years-of-growth-shanghai-then-and-now/100569/

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by giallo

Caltrane, if you seriously think that Chongqing only has 20 buildings UC, then I don't know what to tell you, man.

If there are more, do your part, and let us know the true count. Otherwise you're whistling Dixie. This is not rocket science, and with all the GPS/Satellite Technology and the ability to "Count" funny enough an art invented in China it can't be that hard.

People in Toronto have documented 187 buildings under construction, of which 75 are over 100 meters, don't tell me no one in Chongqing can't get past 20.

[The Chemist]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

If there are more, do your part, and let us know the true count. Otherwise you're whistling Dixie. This is not rocket science, and with all the GPS/Satellite Technology and the ability to "Count" funny enough an art invented in China it can't be that hard.

People in Toronto have documented 187 buildings under construction, of which 75 are over 100 meters, don't tell me no one in Chongqing can't get past 20.

I'm sure if you could read Chinese you could pore over Chinese skyscraper forums and find out the true number, which I'm certain would be at least 10 times the given figure. Just because the information isn't available in English (Small wonder that, given that English is not a very commonly spoken/used language in China) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If Chongqing is anything like Shanghai, there's liable to be vast numbers of residential highrises 25-40 storeys high going up on the outskirts along newly built and under-construction metro lines/highways.

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by The Chemist

I'm sure if you could read Chinese you could pore over Chinese skyscraper forums and find out the true number, which I'm certain would be at least 10 times the given figure. Just because the information isn't available in English (Small wonder that, given that English is not a very commonly spoken/used language in China) doesn't mean it doesn't exist.

If Chongqing is anything like Shanghai, there's liable to be vast numbers of residential highrises 25-40 storeys high going up on the outskirts along newly built and under-construction metro lines/highways.

Can you read Chinese? - Maybe you can be of some assistance in clearing this up for us. - An honest count will give us a fair assessment of where Toronto stands in reference to these mega Chinese cities, that are still growing at a rapid rate.

[MolsonExport]

Shenzhen: http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2008/06/08/magazine/20080608_SHENZHEN_FEATURE.html?_r=0#

[WhipperSnapper]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

I can't believe there is an undercount because there are many members from China here at SSP and SSC to fill in the gaps if any in the count.

Residential is not part of the equation for Chinese skyscraper sites probably because there are simply too many towers to track with almost hourly completions and a 100 metre residential tower not being extraordinary like here. Toronto would likely bottom out any Chinese compilation as only Ba2 and the Delta would qualify as under construction skyscrapers. (152m)

[whiteford]

calgary looks, well,,,,,,,it looks out right amazing of course. with that said, there is something else about it. i just cant seem to put words to the feeling i get when i look at a amazing photo, but more when i look at one of its many vistas in person. this city. it is breathtaking. i love it so. hahaha

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by WhipperSnapper

Residential is not part of the equation for Chinese skyscraper sites probably because there are simply too many towers to track with almost hourly completions and a 100 metre residential tower not being extraordinary like here. Toronto would likely bottom out any Chinese compilation as only Ba2 and the Delta would qualify as under construction skyscrapers. (152m)

And people here say, I exaggerate! Good Lord.

Listen, there are not so many towers going up in anyone area that they cannot be counted. People act like it's impossible.

Tokyo is a city of 30 million people, and we can track all of their projects, New York is a city of 18 million and we can track what's going on there. Why can't we track Chinese cities with urban areas (not including the provincial farming lands of course) of less than half of that. Give me a break. As to Toronto, being on the bottom of any Chinese list, I really doubt that, as stated we can't get any verification of numbers that would put Toronto in a low spot, plus many chinese urban area are not built so tall as to even pass 100 meters, alot of Chinese cities are really just massive lowrise cores surrounded by massive amounts of farmland which are also counted towards their population count. I'll take the list that has been worked on by itoldyouso with his fellow Chinese forumers over speculation on unverified construction counts, anytime.

[MexiQuebecois]

I've never been a fan of Calgary's skyline, but I gotta say that lately it's been growing on me. The new projects look pretty cool.

[caltrane74]

Yes, I agree. The last few shots of Calgary have been amazing. Very hi-tech skyline and the density is actually looking pretty good too. Almost could see it becoming a very urban bustling core one day, if people there choose that lifestyle over that in the suburban hinterland.