Metro Vancouver Transit Discussion

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Meraki

Why don't we take a page out of Europe's book and give discounted rates for everyone up to the age of 24, school or not!

The adult can get subsidies in the form of tax credits and low income bus passes.

It's an idea. I am just throwing out opinion and thought unfortunately and without actual data I can't know if the U-pass thing is even a revenue issue or would be a benefit. I'm more just pointing out a concept where every time I looked at a UBC or SFU or any other uni student riding for nearly $20 a month less than a high school student I just scratched my head going "huh?" as it didn't seem to make a lot of sense.

[Waders]

Originally Posted by nname

Well, all employee have time offs and vacations. Right now, most people in the program don't care about the months they're away and stay in the program anyways. But when the program goes away, they'll only buy monthly pass during the months they need the most, and pay by single trip during other times. Its much more hassle for the user, but I'm not sure many will actually pay more (without company subsidization, that is). At least for me, I figure I can actually save about $15-$40 per year without the program - if I use up all my vacation, that is.

Employee Pass is a fixed 12 months contract with Translink. Opting out for 1 or 2 months during the contract period is not allowed as far as I know.
The 15% discount really is an incentive for employees to stay in the program and allow Translink to have a stable and quaranteed source of revenue. Without the discount incentive and the contract lock-in, some employees are going to switch back to drive.
In my case, I probably can save about $50-$80 buying monthly pass for 10 months only and use stored value Compass card for the remaining days I am in town.
I guess the net result for eliminating the Employee Pass program will be < 15% extra revenue for Translink from those employees and more cars on the road.
I hope in future Translink can look at the possibility of offering some sort of loyalty incentive for Compass Card to encourge people to take public transit. "Ride transit 10 times and get the next ride free" would be good.

[DKaz]

But if they continue Faresaver rates on the Compass Card, you're getting 10 rides for the price of 8.

[MIPS]

Looking at the older ticket machines, when did we stop using the "DEBIT OR CREDIT" slot on the far right and why did we stop using it and add in a new slot and keypad?

[osirisboy]

To accommodate the chips now in debit and credit cards?

[BCPhil]

Originally Posted by DKaz

Not looking forward to paying $170 a month, up from the $127.50 a month I pay right now. My company tops up the discount to make it a total of 25% savings... Sigh.

First world problems...

As someone who is a faresaver user and property tax payer, I'm glad to finally see Translink end handing my money out to a few select companies so their well paid employees can get a break.

Originally Posted by jhausner

Meh then again I am of the opinion concession fares for students should only be for high school students and post secondary students should pay full price. I've yet to hear a compelling argument as to why someone doing their Master's Degree at UBC should ride transit cheaper than a mother going to work to feed her kids. High school students and less sure. Heck even children I'm fine with. But post secondary students are adults. Pay full rate. That would probably boost revenue by at least $1 million a month more alone.

But I'd never win that argument in the court of public opinion I'd imagine.

It depends on how you look at it. At least a single mother goes someplace where they get paid to do something for 8 hours, whereas a student goes someplace where they pay to do something for 8 hours.

Not every Upass holder uses transit (at least to the value they paid). Therefore Translink pays for the people using transit by taking money from people who don't. All students are forced to participate in the program, but in Highschool, you don't have to participate.

But I'm surprised that a lot of Masters students qualify for UPass. At BCIT I was taking 4 courses a week last year, but didn't qualify for UPass because I was doing it part time. But probably most masters students won't be using the Upass, at least not every day.

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

The UPass is still an a program you can't opt out of right?

Does anybody know what the overall utilization of the UPass is? It might be "too cheap" for those who use it, but the overall cost/revenue to Translink might be closer to that of a regular 3 zone pass holder.

I agree with the Grad Student vs. Single mom argument. It is silly. And this comes from somebody likely in a grad program in 2014...

No you can't opt out unless you meet some very specific and strict conditions.

Last I heard, around half of all trips to UBC are made by transit. So with some loose reasoning, you can argue that around half of all Upasses are "underused", meaning that the person holding it doesn't use it enough to offset what they paid into the system. So Translink is taking money from people who don't ride a lot of transit and using it to pay for people who do.

It is still a net loss I believe, but the Schools are also giving direct subsidies to Tranlink to offset the loss and keep the cost lower.

Originally Posted by st7860

The thought just occured to me. Why even bother having a upass program? Instead allow university students who want to take transit to use a conession farecard. This will eliminate the overhead and administration costs.

It would, but there are advantages for Translink to the Upass. It is an upfront, calculable, constant stream of revenue. All students pay into it all the time. Not all students use it to the full price they paid. And there is an economy of scale going on here. Campuses are pretty small (even UBC is served by just one bus loop), therefore it is cheaper to serve with reliable transit than say, the entire downtown core. So there are cost recoveries by using the same number of buses, they just get that much more full.

There is still cost overhead associated with concession cards. How do you monitor the use of them and make sure only students buy them? I still have a "valid" student card, but I'm not enrolled in any classes right now.

Originally Posted by nname

I remember hearing that the upass will be linked directly to the student card so it will become invalid immediately when the student become ineligible. No more monthly renewal would be required.

http://ubyssey.ca/news/upass-compass-card-delay485/

"Bokor said preliminary talks suggest students will need to buy an adult Compass card in addition to paying the $140 per term U-Pass fee. The cards will be available for purchase at places where transit passes are currently sold. The cost of the cards has not yet been announced.

"Students will have to register the cards online to load all-you-can-travel U-Pass benefits on the card.

"Bokor said instead of going to pick up a new U-Pass every month, students will have to request their U-Pass benefits online every month."

So it sounds something like this:

1. Student buys a Compass Card,
2. registers compass card online,
3. links it to their student account,
4. loads a monthly UPass onto their compass card,
5. use their compass card like normal.

I'm guessing if they are fare inspected, the reader will say it is a UPass and the student will have to show ID.

I'm thinking long term, the student IDs at schools will be NFC cards themselves, compatible with Compass. Then the schools can directly load UPasses on to Student Cards (without the student having to do anything). Then that will make selling or trading your upass next to impossible, because the same card also acts as your student photo ID. If you need a new student ID (other lost, stolen or sold) then the school can cancel the Upass on the old card instantly, and it won't work on Transit. If you drop out or aren't registered that term, the card will automatically stop working on transit. Bus drivers and transit fare inspectors can see your picture on the card when you use it.

[officedweller]

Of interest - article on segmental concrete rail transit bridges:

http://aspirebridge.com/magazine/2013Summer/SegTransit_Sum13_Web.pdf

[GMasterAres]

Just looked at the Translink 2011 annual report and it states the U-Pass program cost Translink $7,543,000 which was subsidized by the Provincial Government (not other post secondary institutes).

Last I checked, government was funded by taxpayers. So given full time numbers of probably around 65000 full time students for all the schools participating (have to be full time to qualify and it seems like most of the major schools have a just over 50% ratio of FTE to PTE students average), @ 35 per month, that's $27.3 million earned so if they lost $7.5 million that means it cost them about $34 million which means the price of the fare should be closer to $45 to break even.

So how about for the "struggling" students they just make concession rate for everything including the U-Pass. $51 a month is what it is right now. Nice round number, $50 per month with regular increases matching requirements. That way they would be contributing to the system they are using.

*shrug*

Either way like I was saying before, my beef was more on principle than facts. I just found it hard to fathom a high school student has to pay more to ride the transit system than a University student. And it irks me even more when you consider if it really is about 50% use at UBC, that I am paying for 50% of UBC students to not even use their pass! How about I just stick half that month in the toilet, would accomplish about the same.

[memememe76]

I thought the reason the fares were so low was because all students had to buy into the program, regardless of usage. High school students are not forced into the program and if they were, I think a lot of parents would put up a fuss (I remember when SFU and UBC students were putting up such a fuss). Besides, I guess I'm showing my age, but why aren't high school students walking to school?

Do really half of UBC students don't ever use their bus pass? Surely, not half of the student population drive to school--that wasn't even the case when I went to UBC (pre U-Pass). I suppose people live close enough to campus to walk and/or bike, but they never use their pass to go Downtown once in awhile?

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by BCPhil

It would, but there are advantages for Translink to the Upass. It is an upfront, calculable, constant stream of revenue. All students pay into it all the time. Not all students use it to the full price they paid. And there is an economy of scale going on here. Campuses are pretty small (even UBC is served by just one bus loop), therefore it is cheaper to serve with reliable transit than say, the entire downtown core. So there are cost recoveries by using the same number of buses, they just get that much more full.

If they are losing $7.5 million a year from the U-Pass program that needs to be compensated for by the Province, I would counter point that it isn't a constant stream of revenue, it is actually a constant stream of loss.

Your point on full busses makes sense but that goes for everywhere. But your notion that they can serve it with less service is a bit incorrect. I mean don't we keep hearing about this $billion UBC line to go out there and all the full B lines that need to be replaced or expanded? As for the 1 bus loop though, I don't know about that. Busses that service UBC at that "1 loop":

4, 9, 14, 25, 33, 41, 43, 44, 49, 84, 258, 480, 99-B line, C19, C20, C22, N17.

That's 17 busses. Let's contrast with Metrotown (12 busses) or Surrey Central (12 busses). Seems like more service... we're not talking 5 busses servicing UBC. Now I will grant the point that not all bus riders ARE students. There are 10,000+ faculty at UBC, and I'm sure a fair portion of that group uses transit and pays full fare.

But don't undersell the amount of service at UBC. Students have a pretty awesome deal with the U-Pass and it does cost the taxpayer at the end of the day.

There is still cost overhead associated with concession cards. How do you monitor the use of them and make sure only students buy them? I still have a "valid" student card, but I'm not enrolled in any classes right now.

I do agree. I don't mean move them over to the concession system, simply the concession fees. I have no issue with them still having a U-Pass even though I do hold the notion I'd rather every adult pay adult rates, I am willing to bend on that opinion given there are benefits. I just think the program should pay for itself. If that means upping it to the concession fee of $50 a month and then raising it as costs raise like we all do.

So I'm all for them modernizing the system. Have a regular compass card that is registered once as a student U-Pass through whatever means they want to do it through the University. Do whatever it requires, then add up all the costs and all the revenues, and figure out how much to charge so that the program is self sufficient. I would imagine $50 a month is more than enough and still well under the 1 zone monthly pass.

"Bokor said preliminary talks suggest students will need to buy an adult Compass card in addition to paying the $140 per term U-Pass fee. The cards will be available for purchase at places where transit passes are currently sold. The cost of the cards has not yet been announced.

"Students will have to register the cards online to load all-you-can-travel U-Pass benefits on the card.

"Bokor said instead of going to pick up a new U-Pass every month, students will have to request their U-Pass benefits online every month."

So it sounds something like this:

1. Student buys a Compass Card,
2. registers compass card online,
3. links it to their student account,
4. loads a monthly UPass onto their compass card,
5. use their compass card like normal.

I'm guessing if they are fare inspected, the reader will say it is a UPass and the student will have to show ID.

I'm thinking long term, the student IDs at schools will be NFC cards themselves, compatible with Compass. Then the schools can directly load UPasses on to Student Cards (without the student having to do anything). Then that will make selling or trading your upass next to impossible, because the same card also acts as your student photo ID. If you need a new student ID (other lost, stolen or sold) then the school can cancel the Upass on the old card instantly, and it won't work on Transit. If you drop out or aren't registered that term, the card will automatically stop working on transit. Bus drivers and transit fare inspectors can see your picture on the card when you use it.

Sounds good to me and that system actually makes sense. Again I have nothing fully against the U-Pass program, just think they should pay their fare share. I'd love them to contribute to transit, but if the program at least breaks even then I'd be ok with that. $140 per semester is $35 a month as they define a semester as 4 months. I say raise that to $50 a month, break even, and then we're good because then it really would be a constant revenue stream since the intangible benefits would be a net gain.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by memememe76

I thought the reason the fares were so low was because all students had to buy into the program, regardless of usage. High school students are not forced into the program and if they were, I think a lot of parents would put up a fuss (I remember when SFU and UBC students were putting up such a fuss). Besides, I guess I'm showing my age, but why aren't high school students walking to school?

Do really half of UBC students don't ever use their bus pass? Surely, not half of the student population drive to school--that wasn't even the case when I went to UBC (pre U-Pass). I suppose people live close enough to campus to walk and/or bike, but they never use their pass to go Downtown once in awhile?

Yah as you said, probably a lot of students live on campus and don't even need to leave. So you have a portion that drive, a larger portion that transits, and a portion that are on campus all the time and simply walk or use other modes such as cycling.

As for high school students, come out to Surrey, most high schools have such large catchment areas that at least 25% of students need to take a bus to and from school. Where I live right now, for my kids to go to highschool, the catchment is for a highschool in Guildford which is 3.5km away walking (45 minutes + 1 way). So that either means I would need to drive them every day to or from school until they can drive, or they would need to round trip walk 1 1/2 hours every day. Bus is the only option.

When I was in high school 15 years ago it was the same thing, most of my friends had to take the bus to school as they lived 3+km away. It is probably different in Vancouver but I'm sure they aren't terribly different nor are the other metro cities. And there aren't school busses for high school students. Again not an argument about that, it is a principle argument why a 14 year old that can't even realistically work would need their parent to fork out a concession fair which is more per month than a UBC grad student has to pay to go anywhere in the region.

I get the everyone has to pay for one, but the program loses money so they should at least bump up the U-Pass fare to "still be cheap" but at least bring the program back to financial neutrality.

[xd_1771]

I see the recent TransLink decision to move employee subsidization to the company as very progressive, one that will send a strong message to employers. To start with, it reminds me of a solution that's kind of really needed in the United States. There, a fuss is growing over the amount of workers (particularly at Wal-Mart and fast food chains) that are being paid wages so low that they're relying on taxpayer-subsidized programs like food stamps just to get the basic necessities.

The funny thing about this is how in the middle of this mess, anti-TransLink groups and individuals and their nitpickiness are becoming really visible. I find it especially heinous that some are now trying to bash TransLink for cutting benefits to those employees but not its own. But, TransLink is responsible for its own employees just as any company would be responsible for its own employees now. If every other company in any field or transit agency should have an obligation to provide benefits to employees, I don't see why TransLink shouldn't.

The more evident it becomes that TransLink is going through a very unnecessary bash-fest, the more worried I get about the referendum and the fact that it's going to be filled to the brim with unproductive anti-TransLink votes and some of them will be for all sorts of weird, unresearched reasons

[nname]

One of the reason that UBC have a lot of busses is that it is just a natural terminus for most E-W grid routes in Vancouver. When you look at a map, you'll see there is just no where else the bus can go unless terminate mid-route (ie. the 9 Alma). Even without upass, most buses would still go there anyways otherwise a portion of the population would be without transit service. Vancouver west side is different since there is a lot of destinations, like Kootenay Loop, Metrotown, or any of the SkyTrain stations.

[memememe76]

I was practically born and raised in Surrey. I still live there. I always walked to school and most of my fellow students did too. I guess us Whalley folks are different from spoiled Fraser Heights kids.

[SFUVancouver]

Originally Posted by officedweller

Of interest - article on segmental concrete rail transit bridges:

http://aspirebridge.com/magazine/2013Summer/SegTransit_Sum13_Web.pdf

The link didn't work for me for some reason. I did find it by going to http://www.aspirebridge.com/magazine/2013Summer/ and choosing 'Rail Transit Bridges'.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by jhausner

If they are losing $7.5 million a year from the U-Pass program that needs to be compensated for by the Province, I would counter point that it isn't a constant stream of revenue, it is actually a constant stream of loss.

There's a possible hidden benefit to the U-Pass program, though. If it acclimates a certain portion of students to using transit and those students continue to use transit after leaving school when they otherwise might not have, that's additional revenue to Translink. It's probably next to impossible to tease out exactly what that benefit might amount to, but I think it must be there to some degree.

The 7.5 million a year is peanuts compared to Translink's other subsidies (and let's not forget all the money that the government spends on roads as well).

[Zassk]

Some of you are forgetting the origins of the U-Pass program. It isn't intended to break even or make money. It was one of Gordon Campbell's strategies to increase transit usage, and was considered an investment in the future. It is hoped that by encouraging young adults to use transit, the transit mode share will remain higher after those adults finish their education. Campbell had some dubious ideas during his tenure, but I think this one is a clear winner. I say let the province/taxpayer continue to pay a few million toward increasing the mode share for all adults going forward.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by memememe76

I was practically born and raised in Surrey. I still live there. I always walked to school and most of my fellow students did too. I guess us Whalley folks are different from spoiled Fraser Heights kids.

If Newton qualifies as Fraser Heights, consider me colored special. When I was going to Frank Hurt, it was easy 25% of students taking the bus along 140th to get home and save a 45 minute+ walk. Same went for PMS. This was before they build additional high schools to shrink that gap.

That said, you're completely missing my point so I'll repeat it one more time then move on. I am debating the concept of a student going to UBC paying $35 a month to take transit anywhere vs kids from ages 5 to 19 and the elderly (65+) needing to pay $52 a month for the same services. Why is a select group of people capable of affording to go to a University given such a discount compared to everyone else is all especially given the program LOSES MONEY.

I am simply stating they should either pay full price like all the adults out there have to, or at the very least and minimum, have the U-Pass rate raised to match concession rate of $52 a month which would still save them between $228 and $600 a year over everyone else.

Just saying.

[GMasterAres]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Some of you are forgetting the origins of the U-Pass program. It isn't intended to break even or make money. It was one of Gordon Campbell's strategies to increase transit usage, and was considered an investment in the future. It is hoped that by encouraging young adults to use transit, the transit mode share will remain higher after those adults finish their education. Campbell had some dubious ideas during his tenure, but I think this one is a clear winner. I say let the province/taxpayer continue to pay a few million toward increasing the mode share for all adults going forward.

Meh unfortunately I think you're wrong but I don't have the time to counter your points other than saying that all the U-Pass system actually did is increase demand on public transit services by people that don't contribute to the funding of those services and who upon graduation, more often than not will only stick with transit if it is 1) the cheapest and 2) most convenient mode of transportation for them, something they would do anyway and everyone else on this planet does already, without the U-Pass program.

At the end of the day based on Translinks own ridership numbers and the fact in the last 5 years they have seen a decrease in transit uptake and the only "major" increases happened when 1) the Millenium line opened and 2) the Canada Line opened, tells me the U-Pass program could vanish and we wouldn't really notice a thing other than $7-9 million more in translink's pocket books every year. And people wonder why they are headed towards bankruptcy.

[memememe76]

Originally Posted by jhausner

That said, you're completely missing my point so I'll repeat it one more time then move on. I am debating the concept of a student going to UBC paying $35 a month to take transit anywhere vs kids from ages 5 to 19 and the elderly (65+) needing to pay $52 a month for the same services. Why is a select group of people capable of affording to go to a University given such a discount compared to everyone else is all especially given the program LOSES MONEY.

I've already addressed that, but you were more concerned about my comment about high school kids walking. All UBC or SFU students have to pay into the program, regardless of whether they will utilize the pass or not. If every person 65+ were required to buy a pass (even at the reduced rate), I would imagine a lot of irate senior citizens.