ATLANTA | Development Thread V

[new_guy]

[QUOTE=jnihiser;6190624]Driving down Collier yesterday (very close to Nuevo Laredo), there is a great deal of demo and site clearing going on... Anyone know what the deal is?

Apartments, of course:

http://gis.atlantaga.gov/doc_archive/raw/d011000/p011197.pdf

not sure if deal is fully capitalized or if they are just doing site work as there doesn't appear to be an announcement but was raising equity over the last year or so.

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by scania

I'm not sure what you are basing that on...the materials for Elan is the basic standard that is used all around Atlanta, i.e. Heights Armour apartments. I was somewhat turned off of Elan when I looked at their website and one of the pictures is generic modern living room pic thats been on tons of websites for the past 8 years. The fact that they would use that pic as if that is how one of the units will look is crazy.

Ha, we're talking relative for Atlanta. I think Elan sets a bar for Atlanta infill, but it is disappointing to hear they are skimping on marketing. I also think 280 Elizabeth sets a bar. Would these set bars in much larger cities? No, they probably wouldn't even be allowed for exceeding parking limits alone.

I realize the relationship between Atlanta real estate trends, the slow to comeback economy and thus limited capital markets, the land prices, $2psf rent cap and that relationship along with uncertainty for rent growth due to economic uncertainty in the metro area to land prices, and the parking needs all present unique challenges to what is possible with design in the city...but given these constraints, Greystar, Jamestown, and a native Portman are putting forth the most creativity, and I appreciate that. I'm smart enough not to criticize all infill developments in Atlanta because they aren't designed by Architectonica, LoL .

[atlantaguy]

How funny! You attack me in multiple threads for being "overly sensitive" about Atlanta, yet you continually insert snarky remarks such as this in post after post:

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

Ha, we're talking relative for Atlanta.

You have issues and an obvious agenda. The problem does not stem from me, despite your continued insistence that it does.

[bigstick]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

How funny! You attack me in multiple threads for being "overly sensitive" about Atlanta, yet you continually insert snarky remarks such as this in post after post:



You have issues and an obvious agenda. The problem does not stem from me, despite your continued insistence that it does.

Pack it in Girls. This is not for bitching..............

[Frankly]

I think he may be trying to say that the cost of housing in Atlanta limits the investment that developers can put into new projects which is true. However, 280 Elizabeth and Elan Westside are attractive projects but I certainly don't see that they set any new standards for intown development. I think the best part about them is the way the retail is integrated into the design, unlike some projects where the retail feels like an afterthought. 905 Juniper, Downtown HGI, Renaissance Walk are some of the recent projects I can think of that are equally successful in that regard.

[chris08876]

How tall is the Ferris wheel?

[simms3_redux]

Originally Posted by Frankly

I think he may be trying to say that the cost of housing in Atlanta limits the investment that developers can put into new projects which is true. However, 280 Elizabeth and Elan Westside are attractive projects but I certainly don't see that they set any new standards for intown development. I think the best part about them is the way the retail is integrated into the design, unlike some projects where the retail feels like an afterthought. 905 Juniper, Downtown HGI, Renaissance Walk are some of the recent projects I can think of that are equally successful in that regard.

Yes, correct. Renaissance Walk has been plagued with problems from what I've heard and the developers probably shouldn't have spent the money they have...it's effective rents are way down close to $1psf and it can't fill its retail for the life of it. It'll be a long time before somebody goes that long on DT, LoL :-/

HGI/Embassy are great (Legacy Properties - really like what they do down there), but they are hotels and while the integration with the park/retail is great, I find the designs boring/uninspired. And 905 Juniper is one of the most upscale, boutique condo developments in the metro and is also not a comp (even so these things hit the market for a lowly $250-$350psf, which is equivalent to most any mid/high-rise condo in intown Atlanta that isn't St. Regis or 1280 West).

Elan and 280 Elizabeth will be built as rentals, which are rarely built to the same standard as condos, yet again...positively I appreciate what the developers are doing. It's not a critique to say they aren't globally spectacular (you'll find similar stuff built or proposed in Charlotte or Nashville nowadays and these wouldn't raise a brow in SF or Boston), but in terms of design they are unique in the city and more pleasing to the eye than all of the other cheaper looking stucco or faux brick facade stuff going up, and they take full advantage of tricky confined sites while still offering parking (a challenge), and they are in the prime Atlanta neighborhoods IMO (Westside and Inman Park). Elan will certainly have some views, too!

[Libertarian]

Looks like Pulte will locate their new HQ at Capital City Plaza - 100K SF.

[Frankly]

Originally Posted by simms3_redux

Yes, correct. Renaissance Walk has been plagued with problems from what I've heard and the developers probably shouldn't have spent the money they have...it's effective rents are way down close to $1psf and it can't fill its retail for the life of it. It'll be a long time before somebody goes that long on DT, LoL :-/

HGI/Embassy are great (Legacy Properties - really like what they do down there), but they are hotels and while the integration with the park/retail is great, I find the designs boring/uninspired. And 905 Juniper is one of the most upscale, boutique condo developments in the metro and is also not a comp (even so these things hit the market for a lowly $250-$350psf, which is equivalent to most any mid/high-rise condo in intown Atlanta that isn't St. Regis or 1280 West).

Elan and 280 Elizabeth will be built as rentals, which are rarely built to the same standard as condos, yet again...positively I appreciate what the developers are doing. It's not a critique to say they aren't globally spectacular (you'll find similar stuff built or proposed in Charlotte or Nashville nowadays and these wouldn't raise a brow in SF or Boston), but in terms of design they are unique in the city and more pleasing to the eye than all of the other cheaper looking stucco or faux brick facade stuff going up, and they take full advantage of tricky confined sites while still offering parking (a challenge), and they are in the prime Atlanta neighborhoods IMO (Westside and Inman Park). Elan will certainly have some views, too!

My point is that it's the integration of the retail that sets 280 Elizabeth / Elan Westside apart because there is no substantial difference in the materials being used in them and the materials used in many of the other apartment projects around town. The use of the building is largely irrelevant to how the ground floor of the building is designed, excluding materials.

[(four 0 four)]

Originally Posted by Alfred E Neuman

The Broadstone project on P'tree near P'tree Battle now has a name: The Haynes House.
Was curious about the name Haynes House so, did a little digging. The name may refer to a Frank Lloyd Wright house build for insurance co president in Ft Wayne, IN in 1951.
.

That area of Buckhead is known as Haynes Manor.
From RE Agent Bonneau Ansley III's website:

Originally developed in the 1920s, Haynes Manor originated from the subdivision of developer Eugene Haynes’ estate. Tree-lined and picturesque Peachtree Battle is the main road of Haynes Manor, in addition to being the parkway that commemorates the historic Civil War battle of Peachtree Creek.

I found a rendering of the project on the Lord Aeck & Sargent website:



It looks like they'll have a driveway off Peachtree Battle as well as Peachtree Road.



EDIT:
It appears that they do not want to show up so here's the link to their site:
http://lordaecksargent.com/portfolio-hou...mily_residential/broadstone_on_peachtree

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

Looks like Pulte will locate their new HQ at Capital City Plaza - 100K SF.

Is that the one next to the MARTA station? If so it would be interesting to hear how that factored into their decision.

[gttx]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

Simms, I admire your knowledge and romantic ideas (really), but you're fighting the last war. There's no future for Michigan Avenue or those other retail streets that you mention - they're all dead and dying in this culture. That train has already left the station. Retail niches will still abound in ATL in the Westside and even Atlantic Station due to managed environment and parking. Hopefully Midtown will support a lot of professional and tech jobs as well as residential projects, but mass retail, no. As far as signature office towers - maybe one or two (Dewberry and Daniel/Selig) but that's it.

Sorry, as they say this is not the place for extended discussions so I'm backing off.

While I'm bearish about this being possible on Peachtree Street (for a lot of reasons), your assertion that these streets are dead or dying all over the country is just plain ridiculous. Having lived adjacent to both Michigan Ave and Walnut Street in Philadelphia (and currently living in NYC where there are dozens of examples of this type of retail), I can tell you that they are alive and thriving. What's dying are the enormous, auto-centric, bland regional malls built all over our suburbs. People don't just want to buy things - they want an experience. And vibrant retail streets can offer this in abundance.

Would love to hear your brilliant analysis on why, in fact, Michigan Ave is dead or dying. Or any of the streets Simms mentioned, actually.

[atlantaguy]

Originally Posted by arjay57

Is that the one next to the MARTA station? If so it would be interesting to hear how that factored into their decision.

It sure is, arjay57 - the one with BCBS regional HQ's.

Nice to hear about an outside company moving in and taking 100,000 sf off the market.

[arjay57]

Originally Posted by atlantaguy

Nice to hear about an outside company moving in and taking 100,000 sf off the market.

It really is nice to bring in somebody from outside. A company like that could have taken their pick but they decided to locate in the city.

[scania]

Originally Posted by gttx

While I'm bearish about this being possible on Peachtree Street (for a lot of reasons), your assertion that these streets are dead or dying all over the country is just plain ridiculous. Having lived adjacent to both Michigan Ave and Walnut Street in Philadelphia (and currently living in NYC where there are dozens of examples of this type of retail), I can tell you that they are alive and thriving. What's dying are the enormous, auto-centric, bland regional malls built all over our suburbs. People don't just want to buy things - they want an experience. And vibrant retail streets can offer this in abundance.

Would love to hear your brilliant analysis on why, in fact, Michigan Ave is dead or dying. Or any of the streets Simms mentioned, actually.

Get your facts straight. The urban street level retail is thriving across the country, but lets not be so ignorant and not realize that malls are being built and are just as popular across the country. Atlanta is a prime example. There are malls being built in the suburbs around Atlanta, just as retail is popping up in the city. I understand that a large number of people on this forum only supports one side of things, but lets not get carried away with ridiculous statements.

[simms3_redux]

^^^Yes, to a point. No "indoor" malls are being built anymore. Street retail is surging in urban centers across the country, and suburban areas are trying their best to recreate this street retail in their own autocentric format (Avalon in Alpharetta for instance - the developers would be offended if it came to be known as a "mall" even if to most of us on this forum it is).

Nobody believes that Peachtree St will remotely resemble any setup of Michigan Ave over the past 30 years in any period of time less than 30 years from now, but honestly Walnut St of 10-15 years ago isn't too much of a stretch for the imagination in ~20-30 years time if city leaders, Midtown Alliance, local developers, the local economy, etc play their cards right.

I have yet to visit Portland, but we keep looking there for deals...I hear just 30 years ago it was generic sprawlville and now it is considered a small 24 hour market, Macy's and Nordstrom downtown and countless shops found on the Westside, in Lenox, coming to SoB, etc scattered throughout their downtown and immediately adjacent neighborhoods, along with very cool mid/high-rise residential districs that would be enough to make any Atlantan really jealous.

[atlantaguy]

LOL! It just never stops....

[Libertarian]

Just to play devil's advocate, the future is dim for legacy suburban strips AND retail pedestrian experiences. Consider the headwinds. Not to pick on Chicago, I was recently involved in a job in a building on the Mag Mile "dead zone" south of the river and let me tell you it's dead. The street scene is pathetic. North of the river, they refer to it as the "mugger mile" and it feels like a bubble - shopping dinosaurs sorting their way through the homeless and misplaced who are not spending money. Same is true of other shopping streets in all the above mentioned cities in this country with the possible exception of NY.

But here's the main point: The internet is killing brick and mortar. You can't deny it. Just look at the numbers. Then on top of that there's generational trends. Do you really think the millennials are casually hanging out and spending money in Bloomie's, Lord & Taylor, etc? No way. I've been in Macy's NY mothership recently, and didn't even see anyone spending money considering the fact that it's all geared to the 50+ crowd. I know they're renovating the place, but to what purpose?

Let's be honest. There's several good reasons Atlanta's model is the future and not your grandmother's High Street: E-commerce. Demographics. Quality of experience. Less materialism. You guys who invest money and time in the glitz and glamour of storefront retail are just kidding yourselves. Better you should develop your web skills and off street models. I may be wrong but I don't think so.

[ATLaffinity]

Originally Posted by Libertarian

Just to play devil's advocate, the future is dim for legacy suburban strips AND retail pedestrian experiences. Consider the headwinds. Not to pick on Chicago, I was recently involved in a job in a building on the Mag Mile "dead zone" south of the river and let me tell you it's dead. The street scene is pathetic. North of the river, they refer to it as the "mugger mile" and it feels like a bubble - shopping dinosaurs sorting their way through the homeless and misplaced who are not spending money. Same is true of other shopping streets in all the above mentioned cities in this country with the possible exception of NY.

But here's the main point: The internet is killing brick and mortar. You can't deny it. Just look at the numbers. Then on top of that there's generational trends. Do you really think the millennials are casually hanging out and spending money in Bloomie's, Lord & Taylor, etc? No way. I've been in Macy's NY mothership recently, and didn't even see anyone spending money considering the fact that it's all geared to the 50+ crowd. I know they're renovating the place, but to what purpose?

Let's be honest. There's several good reasons Atlanta's model is the future and not your grandmother's High Street: E-commerce. Demographics. Quality of experience. Less materialism. You guys who invest money and time in the glitz and glamour of storefront retail are just kidding yourselves. Better you should develop your web skills and off street models. I may be wrong but I don't think so.

Yeah, but there's a reason Westside is exploding. People *want* to have a pleasant shopping experience and not spend their life on Amazon Prime.

I agree that having Macys would be absurd for Midtown. But I do think retail will eventually take root.

[Libertarian]

Originally Posted by ATLaffinity

Yeah, but there's a reason Westside is exploding. People *want* to have a pleasant shopping experience and not spend their life on Amazon Prime.

We don't disagree. Westside is representative of targeted and specialized retail (and web-enabled) that's replacing the monolithic altars of mass consumerism meaning the malls and aforementioned dead and dying streets in legacy cities. For sure there will be retail in Midtown backed up with smart money, but instead of a poor copy of the last century it will be the next big deal.