[Moncton] Downtown Developments

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by mmmatt

Today I passed 1234 Main and they have a new sign up showing that the Reno is merely "phase 1" they do intend to refit 1222 main as well!!

This is a photo of the sign that mmmatt was referring to in his post:



It's clear that 1222 Main Street will be getting exactly the same treatment as 1234 Main Street. If you look closely at the sign, it is also clear that once 1234 Main Street is ready, that ING Direct will be relocating there (they will have an illuminated sign on the crest of the building).

I wonder if "phase 2" will also include the "commercial interests and plans" that Crombie REIT referred to with regards to their plans to demolish their portion of the old Highfield Square site as quickly as possible. I presume that it will.....

[Monctoncore]

I know its crazy but I would like to see the same thing happen to the Assumption building, maybe not the full gutting, but to see glass .... driving downtown and seeing those two bland walls its just not pretty.

[mmmatt]

Originally Posted by Monctoncore

I know its crazy but I would like to see the same thing happen to the Assumption building, maybe not the full gutting, but to see glass .... driving downtown and seeing those to bland walls its just not pretty.

Ya I've always wished the same thing...it's unfortunate it was built at the height of brutalist architecture...it would be a much bigger job due to the height and also the sheer mass of the concrete panels...but I don't think it's impossible. Maybe someday!

[mylesmalley]

I'm not the only person who actually likes brutalist architecture, am I?

[Monctoncore]

Not at all, I love it, it has a beauty within it that most buildings lack, I just feel if there were more taller structures around it to take your eyes of the blank walls , or even if they added in better lighting at night... I just like the idea of glass because it would be a nice addition downtown.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

I'm not the only person who actually likes brutalist architecture, am I?

No one, at least to me, who has professed their enjoyment of brutalist architecture has been able to explain why.

Blandness from concrete, I think, is acceptable if it is surrounded by more colourful, more versatile buildings, or at least ample amounts of landscaping; but alone, I find it extremely drab.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by David_99

Hopefully not a 2 story call centre...

I wonder if this commercial interest would be interested in working with and becoming a part of the new Events Centre building, considering their proximity.

A 2-storey call centre would be great, I think! Downtown jobs in any form are encouraging. Beggars cannot be choosers. After all, downtown Moncton must compete against all the expanding industrial parks the city is approving -- industrial parks that would even be considered 'big' in Toronto, and a killer of downtown developments.

[mylesmalley]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

No one, at least to me, who has professed their enjoyment of brutalist architecture has been able to explain why.

Blandness from concrete, I think, is acceptable if it is surrounded by more colourful, more versatile buildings, or at least ample amounts of landscaping; but alone, I find it extremely drab.

Why does one person like rock and roll, and another like trance? It's often hard to explain why anything at all is aesthetically pleasing, beyond the fact that you just like it. Brutalism and the International Style have always appealed to me. I like the gravitas and significance those buildings carry with them. I get a sense of competence and seriousness from a brutalist building that I don't necessarily feel from something more 'contemporary'.

Ultimately it comes down to context. It would be weird to see renaissance fine art hanging in a space-age building. Brutalism is all about function, then form. Sometimes that works, sometimes it doesn't.

I'm not by any means saying I like all brutalist architecture - it certainly can be overdone. Look no further than Boston's city hall square. Too much concrete with no natural elements whatsoever leave the place extremely sterile. But it can also be very well executed. Habitat 67 in Montreal is a really neat example. Hell, there's even a 550 tower in New York that has no windows! http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/33_Thomas_Street

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

A 2-storey call centre would be great, I think! Downtown jobs in any form are encouraging. Beggars cannot be choosers. After all, downtown Moncton must compete against all the expanding industrial parks the city is approving -- industrial parks that would even be considered 'big' in Toronto, and a killer of downtown developments.

You're comparing apples to oranges. Industrial parks serve a purpose entirely different from the downtown core. Most businesses that you find in an industrial park you would not want to see in the downtown. Industrial parks are important to overall economic development in a community but generally belong in the periphery, away from the downtown and from residential neighbourhoods. You would not want to have a structural steel manufacturing plant immediately adjacent to a school or a community centre for example.

If you are referring to a business park however, I tend to agree with you but the only business park in the metro area that I am aware of is the Emmerson Business Park on the site of the old CN Shops, which is sort of on the edge of downtown.

By and large, the industrial parks in Moncton are industrial parks, and do not steal commercial or business enterprises from the core. There are some exceptions such as the Irving head office building in Dieppe that should have been built downtown. The two office buildings in the MID park on St. George Blvd are another example, but they are by far the exception rather than the rule.

[Sunnybrae]

The conversion of the old Livingston warehouse on Edinburgh Dr. in the MID into the Sitel call centre would have to be approved by the city would it not? Or would the zoning not be industrial but rather commercial? If you don't allow this type of development to happen, do you end up turning away business and end up with empty buildings?

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by Sunnybrae

The conversion of the old Livingston warehouse on Edinburgh Dr. in the MID into the Sitel call centre would have to be approved by the city would it not? Or would the zoning not be industrial but rather commercial? If you don't allow this type of development to happen, do you end up turning away business and end up with empty buildings?

It is a dilemma, yes.

Another good example is the conversion of the old Riverview Mall into a building containing several large call centres. You either allow this type of repurposing, or demolish the building. And whose to say that those call centre jobs would ever have migrated to the core in any event......

A lot of call centres (like Minacs) are pretty shoe string operations. Others like ING Direct, RBC, Exxon Mobil, Rogers, UPS or BBM are not. The former probably would never occupy expensive downtown real estate in the first place. The latter could, and some do.......

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

You're comparing apples to oranges. Industrial parks serve a purpose entirely different from the downtown core. Most businesses that you find in an industrial park you would not want to see in the downtown. Industrial parks are important to overall economic development in a community but generally belong in the periphery, away from the downtown and from residential neighbourhoods. You would not want to have a structural steel manufacturing plant immediately adjacent to a school or a community centre for example.

If you are referring to a business park however, I tend to agree with you but the only business park in the metro area that I am aware of is the Emmerson Business Park on the site of the old CN Shops, which is sort of on the edge of downtown.

By and large, the industrial parks in Moncton are industrial parks, and do not steal commercial or business enterprises from the core. There are some exceptions such as the Irving head office building in Dieppe that should have been built downtown. The two office buildings in the MID park on St. George Blvd are another example, but they are by far the exception rather than the rule.

I would like to suggest that you may be attempting to separate the two, when in the context of city planning, taxation, and long-term budgeting: they are essentially the same. The terms are interchangeable, especially considering that most 'industrial' parks contain at least a minor presence of retail businesses and office space that could, instead, be developed in areas that already have infrastructure, public services, residential density, and a culture of walking/public transit.

I'd go as far as to say that land permits are abused for industrial parks -- but the entire notion of a 'business' park is abusive to the taxpayer, so this goes without saying.

Of course we don't want steel plants near residential areas, so having *heavy* industries established at an acceptable distance from sensitive areas of the city is necessary. These low-density parks can only successfully be part of economic growth if they are used modestly; otherwise, they'll potentially burden the city (and province) with perpetual debt.

Whatever you'd like to label this low-density usage of land: Moncton has too much; Halifax has too much; Saint John and Fredericton have too much. We Maritimers need to smarten up.

[mylesmalley]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I would like to suggest that you may be attempting to separate the two, when in the context of city planning, taxation, and long-term budgeting: they are essentially the same. The terms are interchangeable, especially considering that most 'industrial' parks contain at least a minor presence of retail businesses and office space that could, instead, be developed in areas that already have infrastructure, public services, residential density, and a culture of walking/public transit.

I'd go as far as to say that land permits are abused for industrial parks -- but the entire notion of a 'business' park is abusive to the taxpayer, so this goes without saying.

Of course we don't want steel plants near residential areas, so having *heavy* industries established at an acceptable distance from sensitive areas of the city is necessary. These low-density parks can only successfully be part of economic growth if they are used modestly; otherwise, they'll potentially burden the city (and province) with perpetual debt.

Whatever you'd like to label this low-density usage of land: Moncton has too much; Halifax has too much; Saint John and Fredericton have too much. We Maritimers need to smarten up.

I don't even know where to start, RyeJay.

Let's ignore the fact that our industrial parks are a massive contributor to regional employment. Let's also ignore the fact that there are perfectly justifiable reasons for why it doesn't make sense for certain 'non-heavy-industry' businesses to establish themselves outside of the core. Let's ignore the fact that businesses pay a massive amount of taxes to support the infrastructure that they (and we all) benefit from...property taxes, corporate income taxes, sales taxes, payroll taxes etc. On the property tax side, businesses are actually assessed at 1.5x the rate of residential uses.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

I don't even know where to start, RyeJay.

^ That is an unnecessary comment.

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Let's ignore the fact that our industrial parks are a massive contributor to regional employment.

^ I find this to be a ridiculous statement.

No where in my responses about low-density commerical/industrial parks have I advocated against this job creation. I am only criticising where these jobs are established. The retail boom in Moncton would be more sustainable if these jobs were verticalised -- if more malls were developed closer to the core, instead of strip malls being built further away...

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Let's also ignore the fact that there are perfectly justifiable reasons for why it doesn't make sense for certain 'non-heavy-industry' businesses to establish themselves outside of the core.

Huh?

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

Let's ignore the fact that businesses pay a massive amount of taxes to support the infrastructure that they (and we all) benefit from...property taxes, corporate income taxes, sales taxes, payroll taxes etc.

'Massive' is unspecific, wouldn't you say?

Although the hardship of small businesses is a lengthy discussion we could have -- corporations certainly aren't struggling. Most of the larger ones have been enjoying record profits over the past decade. Also breaking records is the amounts of debt municipalities are taking on in order to make available cheap land for these corporations to set up store locations, away from the downtown. Also breaking records is the gap between the rich and the poor, as wages and salaries for most of the work force as stagnated, while incomes for the upper most classes has risen considerably.

Arguably, as well, New Brunswick's corporate tax rate is unsustainably low. Corporations are not paying their fair share.

Regardless of how you, myself, or anyone may wish to spin this issue of taxation: the average consumer is far less capable of paying off the debt we've accumulated for wasteful developments, such as 'business' parks.

Originally Posted by mylesmalley

On the property tax side, businesses are actually assessed at 1.5x the rate of residential uses.

The tax revenue generated in the province isn't enough to pay for the infrastructure and public services to which we've committed.

[habs33]

Just saw this on News 91.9

Major development announced for downtown Moncton
A unique eight storey building will be erected at 55 Queen Street, which is located directly behind city hall.

http://www.news919.com/2013/06/27/major-development-announced-for-downtown-moncton/

[MonctonRad]

Interesting.

So, it appears that 55 Queen Street is now a go! According to the article, they expect shovels in the ground by next spring with an opening date in 2015.



We also now have a website for the project:
www.fivefive.ca

Updated render stolen from their website:

[KnoxfordGuy]

So does this mean another parking lot filled in?!?!? Yayyyyy!

[David_99]

Originally Posted by KnoxfordGuy

So does this mean another parking lot filled in?!?!? Yayyyyy!

Parking lot? On Queen St? Nah.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by David_99

Parking lot? On Queen St? Nah.

Well, this recent development is hopefully the start of a trend to infill the downtown's wasted spaces.

[haloj]

This is such great news!

Great development. The units look great. Very modern.