Interprovincial bridge crossing discussion

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Of course you are right, but at least it has a buffer zone and sooner or later it will be needed. It seems to me that the local residents think that they have some special privilege that others in this city are never entitled to. We have created a number of transportation corridors in this city and the chosen few believe that this becomes their local parkland. Hmmm, paralells with Lansdowne? Alta Vista Parkway corridor? Yet, when no buffer zone exists, roads get widened willy nilly in every part of the city. I don't understand this sense of special privilege and the politicians who support this.

I was thinking about this recently also. Two lane roads can get widened to three lanes or more with medians, etc. literally right outside the front doors of hundreds of people and nobody does anything about it.

[JM1]

What Acajack and lrt's fiend are advocating is a race to the bottom. One neighbourhood around King Edward (a former beautiful, tree-lined street) has been ruined, so let's ruin other neighbourhoods as well.

Keep up the arguments guys. Or save yourself the trouble and just move to Detroit. You can have all the urban blight you want!

Originally Posted by Acajack

I was thinking about this recently also. Two lane roads can get widened to three lanes or more with medians, etc. literally right outside the front doors of hundreds of people and nobody does anything about it.

[Acajack]

Originally Posted by JM1

What Acajack and lrt's fiend are advocating is a race to the bottom. One neighbourhood around King Edward (a former beautiful, tree-lined street) has been ruined, so let's ruin other neighbourhoods as well.

Keep up the arguments guys. Or save yourself the trouble and just move to Detroit. You can have all the urban blight you want!

People can be such drama queens.

On what planet does one have to live on to think that in terms of urbanity, this

http://maps.google.ca/maps?hl=en&tab=wl

is equivalent to this?

http://goo.gl/maps/wlVxy

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by JM1

What Acajack and lrt's fiend are advocating is a race to the bottom. One neighbourhood around King Edward (a former beautiful, tree-lined street) has been ruined, so let's ruin other neighbourhoods as well.

Keep up the arguments guys. Or save yourself the trouble and just move to Detroit. You can have all the urban blight you want!

Fearmongering.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by JM1

What Acajack and lrt's fiend are advocating is a race to the bottom. One neighbourhood around King Edward (a former beautiful, tree-lined street) has been ruined, so let's ruin other neighbourhoods as well.

Keep up the arguments guys. Or save yourself the trouble and just move to Detroit. You can have all the urban blight you want!

Obviously you didn't read what I said. There is going to be traffic and it is going to go somewhere. Where is it best to go? On the planned transportation corridor with buffer zones or on your local street?

This is exactly what happened with King Edward. King Edward was the local street that got the traffic whereas it was originally supposed to be fed onto the Vanier Parkway directly.

The fact of the matter is that New Edinburgh residents put up a big stink and the less influential Lower Town residents lost the battle and we ended up with a royal mess in the centre of our city. I am not saying that the original plan was great either but it was a plan. We threw out part of the plan and we ended up with a traffic mess. Price tag $1B ++ to clean up even partially.
Isn't that a bargain? The original plan may have cost $10M.

In the case of the Aviation Parkway corridor, that has been a planned transportation corridor since the 1950s. Now Manor Park residents say we don't want it. Keep that traffic in someone else's neighbourhood. I know this was planned for 50+ years in some form or other and because it was planned, I know nobody will be expropriated and there will still be parks and noise control but I don't care. Widen someone else's street. Expropriate who knows how many other people's homes. I don't care. As long as it is not anywhere near me. I don't care if this makes everybody else's commute longer. I don't care how much extra fuel is burned and how much extra pollution results. I DON'T CARE. I got the ear of the politicians. See what I can do and you can't. Suckers!

[NOWINYOW]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

...
This is exactly what happened with King Edward. King Edward was the local street that got the traffic whereas it was originally supposed to be fed onto the Vanier Parkway directly.

The fact of the matter is that New Edinburgh residents put up a big stink and the less influential Lower Town residents lost the battle and we ended up with a royal mess in the centre of our city. I am not saying that the original plan was great either but it was a plan. We threw out part of the plan and we ended up with a traffic mess. Price tag $1B ++ to clean up even partially.
Isn't that a bargain? The original plan may have cost $10M.

In the case of the Aviation Parkway corridor, that has been a planned transportation corridor since the 1950s. Now Manor Park residents say we don't want it. Keep that traffic in someone else's neighbourhood. I know this was planned for 50+ years in some form or other and because it was planned, I know nobody will be expropriated and there will still be parks and noise control but I don't care. Widen someone else's street. Expropriate who knows how many other people's homes. I don't care. As long as it is not anywhere near me. I don't care if this makes everybody else's commute longer. I don't care how much extra fuel is burned and how much extra pollution results. I DON'T CARE. I got the ear of the politicians. See what I can do and you can't. Suckers!

This is so true. The corridor has been well known for years. Those who weren't aware of this can blame only themselves for not researching.

Just wait until a push is made for the Alta Vista corridor to be developed.

[JM1]

The Greber plan had the crossing at duck island, not kettle island. It is myth that this was supposed to be a crossing.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Obviously you didn't read what I said. There is going to be traffic and it is going to go somewhere. Where is it best to go? On the planned transportation corridor with buffer zones or on your local street?

This is exactly what happened with King Edward. King Edward was the local street that got the traffic whereas it was originally supposed to be fed onto the Vanier Parkway directly.

The fact of the matter is that New Edinburgh residents put up a big stink and the less influential Lower Town residents lost the battle and we ended up with a royal mess in the centre of our city. I am not saying that the original plan was great either but it was a plan. We threw out part of the plan and we ended up with a traffic mess. Price tag $1B ++ to clean up even partially.
Isn't that a bargain? The original plan may have cost $10M.

In the case of the Aviation Parkway corridor, that has been a planned transportation corridor since the 1950s. Now Manor Park residents say we don't want it. Keep that traffic in someone else's neighbourhood. I know this was planned for 50+ years in some form or other and because it was planned, I know nobody will be expropriated and there will still be parks and noise control but I don't care. Widen someone else's street. Expropriate who knows how many other people's homes. I don't care. As long as it is not anywhere near me. I don't care if this makes everybody else's commute longer. I don't care how much extra fuel is burned and how much extra pollution results. I DON'T CARE. I got the ear of the politicians. See what I can do and you can't. Suckers!

[JM1]

If you want to go back 50 years, look at this. They chose Duck Island as the crossing back then.

See for yourself... By the way, that plan also had a crossing at Britania and no 417!

[IMG=http://i2.wp.com/westsideaction.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/greber-hwy-plan-1950.jpg]

Originally Posted by NOWINYOW

This is so true. The corridor has been well known for years. Those who weren't aware of this can blame only themselves for not researching.

Just wait until a push is made for the Alta Vista corridor to be developed.

[JM1]

[Ottawa superman]

Originally Posted by JM1

Interesting map. Never saw it.

[lrt's friend]

Originally Posted by JM1

If you want to go back 50 years, look at this. They chose Duck Island as the crossing back then.

See for yourself... By the way, that plan also had a crossing at Britania and no 417!

[IMG=http://i2.wp.com/westsideaction.files.wordpress.com/2012/10/greber-hwy-plan-1950.jpg]

Exactly how much of that plan was implemented as shown? Not much. It was a general concept, which would have proven impractical in many respects and unaffordable. Things have changed greatly since the late 1940's when that map was put together. We have to face current reality, which is a much bigger city than ever anticipated at that time. Certain parts of the Greber Plan have been implemented and certain corridors were preserved for roads. The Aviation Parkway was one of those corridors and it is indeed shown on the Greber map shown although not connected to a bridge at that time. We have to make use of corridors available while facing present day needs. We cannot be handcuffed by a 1940s plan but we have to face the fact that the Aviation Parkway was a planned road corridor since the 1940s. In other words since the time when the very first houses were built in Manor Park and any other area bordering the corridor.

[JM1]

Well, Aviation Parkway was a parkway, nota a transportation corridor in the plan. Anyway, I agree that just because it was a plan 50+ years ago does not make it a plan for the present.

My point was simply to refute those making the argument that aviation was always intended as a transportation corridor - it was not, for it was always a "parkway".

I was not the one who started this recent conversation about 50+ years ago. But those who want to argue based on history should argue based on fact and not fictions that some have created to justify a kettle island bridge.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

Exactly how much of that plan was implemented as shown? Not much. It was a general concept, which would have proven impractical in many respects and unaffordable. Things have changed greatly since the late 1940's when that map was put together. We have to face current reality, which is a much bigger city than ever anticipated at that time. Certain parts of the Greber Plan have been implemented and certain corridors were preserved for roads. The Aviation Parkway was one of those corridors and it is indeed shown on the Greber map shown although not connected to a bridge at that time. We have to make use of corridors available while facing present day needs. We cannot be handcuffed by a 1940s plan but we have to face the fact that the Aviation Parkway was a planned road corridor since the 1940s. In other words since the time when the very first houses were built in Manor Park and any other area bordering the corridor.

[lrt's friend]

look at what happened 39 years ago

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jDE...8,670464&dq=eastern+parkway+ottawa&hl=en

[JM1]

The past is the past. You and Acajack argue based on 50+ years ago, then I present the facts from 50+ years ago. You say that there were lots of things in the Greber plan that were never implemented. I note that in your article, the Britannina-Deschenes crossing was the priority (what happened to that?).

History is history.

The city has changed. And what the outcry tells you is that the city and province no longer want a crossing at Kettle Island.

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

look at what happened 39 years ago

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jDE...8,670464&dq=eastern+parkway+ottawa&hl=en

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

look at what happened 39 years ago

http://news.google.com/newspapers?id=jDE...8,670464&dq=eastern+parkway+ottawa&hl=en

Nice find. My dad really wasn't kidding when he told me they were talking about building these bridges when he was a kid.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by JM1

Well, Aviation Parkway was a parkway, nota a transportation corridor in the plan. Anyway, I agree that just because it was a plan 50+ years ago does not make it a plan for the present.

My point was simply to refute those making the argument that aviation was always intended as a transportation corridor - it was not, for it was always a "parkway".

I was not the one who started this recent conversation about 50+ years ago. But those who want to argue based on history should argue based on fact and not fictions that some have created to justify a kettle island bridge.

All our "parkways" have become transportation routes. I biked the Rockcliffe Parkway to work this morning and it was nothing but commuters heading downtown or to Gatineau.

Seriously, you're suggesting we protect the Aviation Parkway which is basically used to bypass St-Laurent blvd for access to/from the 417 East more easily? (2 traffic lights vs close to a dozen.)

On the Ottawa side Aviation is the best route to connect to a bridge that's within the core urban area (ie. inside the Greenbelt). There's not a single building that fronts that road and there's buffer space along most (if not all) of its route.

If the NCC was sugesting we directly connect the bridge to St-Laurent blvd or Blair road I'd be right there we with you opposing it. Those roads have plenty of devellopment and lots of residential fronting it.

[lrt's friend]

It is funny how history and reality get twisted and turned. I point out history as it is part of the present day reality. Then I am told that this is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that the Aviation Parkway corridor dates back to the 1940s and it still exists today. It was always planned as a transportation corridor all along. The concept of a bridge on that corridor dates back at least to 1974. This is truly relevant history as this corridor is real and it exists. To not use it for its purpose is insanity when it was the only transportation corridor designed specifically for this purpose that was preserved. Lines on a map are meaningless if the land was not assembled or if it was repurposed as part of a plan. Taxpayers were bought out by the government to create the corridor at our expense then we are told that we can't be use it because neighbours don't like it eventhough most or all of them knew what that land was for when they purchased their homes. This is how our tax money gets wasted and why our taxes are so high.

[Ottawa superman]

Originally Posted by lrt's friend

It is funny how history and reality get twisted and turned. I point out history as it is part of the present day reality. Then I am told that this is irrelevant. The fact of the matter is that the Aviation Parkway corridor dates back to the 1940s and it still exists today. It was always planned as a transportation corridor all along. The concept of a bridge on that corridor dates back at least to 1974. This is truly relevant history as this corridor is real and it exists. To not use it for its purpose is insanity when it was the only transportation corridor designed specifically for this purpose that was preserved. Lines on a map are meaningless if the land was not assembled or if it was repurposed as part of a plan. Taxpayers were bought out by the government to create the corridor at our expense then we are told that we can't be use it because neighbours don't like it eventhough most or all of them knew what that land was for when they purchased their homes. This is how our tax money gets wasted and why our taxes are so high.

The federal government bought territory from Ottawa and Gatineau to beautify the capital. They were never intended to accommodate trucks.

Also, parkways in Ottawa are basically expressways with parkland. They were never designed as parkways like the rest of Ontario where parkways are freeways with landscape berms, even some section are trenched or tunnel and parkland, like Don Valley Parkway, Windsor Essex Parkway and Conestoga Parkway in K-W region. These Parkways were designed to be able to handle much more traffic than Ottawa Parkway network. Furthermore, the only planned freeway in Ottawa was the Queensway and the Airport Parkway which is basically a two lane expressway originally owned by the feds and downloaded to the city, in 1997. NIMBYIsm on this corridor is unacceptable and it never should have been on the parkway network in the first place.

[Ottawa superman]

Originally Posted by Capital Shaun

All our "parkways" have become transportation routes. I biked the Rockcliffe Parkway to work this morning and it was nothing but commuters heading downtown or to Gatineau.

Seriously, you're suggesting we protect the Aviation Parkway which is basically used to bypass St-Laurent blvd for access to/from the 417 East more easily? (2 traffic lights vs close to a dozen.)

On the Ottawa side Aviation is the best route to connect to a bridge that's within the core urban area (ie. inside the Greenbelt). There's not a single building that fronts that road and there's buffer space along most (if not all) of its route.

If the NCC was sugesting we directly connect the bridge to St-Laurent blvd or Blair road I'd be right there we with you opposing it. Those roads have plenty of devellopment and lots of residential fronting it.

How is Aviation the best? Even the NCC consultant has suggested that trucks would be better off with Lower Duck. Aviation leads to residential neighbourhoods and the the lands south of the train yards is being redeveloped in condos.

[Capital Shaun]

Originally Posted by Ottawa superman

How is Aviation the best? Even the NCC consultant has suggested that trucks would be better off with Lower Duck. Aviation leads to residential neighbourhoods and the the lands south of the train yards is being redeveloped in condos.

Trucks, sure. But what about everybody else? Are they to continue pointlesssly cut through downtown in perpetuatity?

Aviation goes from the 417 to Rockcliffe parkway. It doesn't directly lead into any neighbourhoods that I know of. (But it does act as a divide between them.)