Time for Vancouver to Tear Down Its Viaducts?

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by hollywoodnorth

if anyone noticed for 2 weeks ending last weekend TERMINAL was closed at Main due to some "emergency water works rebuild" is what I was told by some "vest wearing" guys

for the 1st week it was BOTH WAYS ON TERMINAL ..... yes there was STATION STREET to help .... but guess what MEGGS, etc. THE WHOLE AREA WAS A GONG SHOW. National was bumper to bumper for hours and hours every day. Vennables @ Clark .... GONG SHOW AS WELL.

dare I predict this is exactly what will happen when the VIADUCTS is taken down?

ALSO .... get ready for it folks ... POWELL STREET CLOSURE.

I predict .... more pedestrian strikes on hastings over the coming year .... I predict the viaducts getting WAYYY more usage ... I predict more Main/Terminal gridlock. I predict MEGGS still saying we need to tear them down. I predict the cocky british transport planner who works for the COV to say it was "all part of his traffic modeling" ......


Project closing East Van traffic artery

A major East Vancouver traffic artery will be closed to commuters later this month, and local shopkeepers are worried about the impact.

http://bc.ctvnews.ca/video?clipId=940477&binId=1.1184694&playlistPageNum=3

I have to agree with this one. I actually use both the Main/Terminal route to get to the burbs, but that stupid construction makes it so difficult so now I have to use the Powell route. Then I just found out today, the Powell route will be closed for a year. Its a nitemare!

Such horrendous traffic situation should make people think twice about getting rid of the viaducts. If you noticed in the Solo District thread, I've already written off a possible condo purchase in the Brentwood Mall area because of horrendous traffic. Its not a good thing to experience, and I think people will think twice into wanting to live in an area if gridlock awaits them.

You can't rely on transit, even Skytrain 100% of the time in today's modern world even if you lived right beside a station...a car is a necessary evil. I personally tried to Zip Car it for three years here in Yaletown until I realized with the amount of money I paid, I could have just bought a small cheap car, which I did later on.

[dreambrother808]

I don't feel that the case has been clearly made that the removal of one or more of the viaducts will cause much suffering either. There is the perception and the belief, yes, but no incontrovertible evidence.

This matter of comparing road construction projects doesn't provide a direct analogy. The circumstances are different.

I do worry that the viaducts' removal could turn out to be a mistake but a greater part of me is fascinated by the potential of their removal.

[Canadian Mind]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I don't feel that the case has been clearly made that the removal of one or more of the viaducts will cause much suffering either. There is the perception and the belief, yes, but no incontrovertible evidence.

The case hasn't been made clear that the removal of one or more of the viaducts would cause minimal suffering or a benefit, either. As proponents for the change, viaduct removal supporters should be willing to provide evidence beyond their own intuition and personal belief that removal of the viaducts would provide a benefit to the community. The onus shouldn't be on defenders of the viaducts to provide hard and solid facts supporting their existence when those purporting the viaduct's destruction aren't willing to do the same.

[spm2013]

....

[Zassk]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I do worry that the viaducts' removal could turn out to be a mistake but a greater part of me is fascinated by the potential of their removal.

Fascinated by the potential of flushing $100 million down the drain to demolish the viaducts, when the land under it is too polluted to build on?

Imagine what other projects the city could undertake with $100 million? For example, how much would the streetcar project cost?

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Way to go! You've confirmed Godwin's Law yet again!

Maybe he was talking about the Soviet death squads who killed hundreds of thousands?

[Metro-One]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Fascinated by the potential of flushing $100 million down the drain to demolish the viaducts, when the land under it is too polluted to build on?

Imagine what other projects the city could undertake with $100 million? For example, how much would the streetcar project cost?

I believe the first 2 phases of the Streetcar is 80 million. Someone can correct em if I am wrong.

[DKaz]

Originally Posted by queetz@home

You can't rely on transit, even Skytrain 100% of the time in today's modern world even if you lived right beside a station...a car is a necessary evil. I personally tried to Zip Car it for three years here in Yaletown until I realized with the amount of money I paid, I could have just bought a small cheap car, which I did later on.

If you drive enough, sure. My wife and I share one car. However, I am getting a Modo membership as it would be cheaper than getting a second car for those couple times a month I need a car. Or minivan. Or pickup truck or cargo van. Or SUV.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Zassk

Fascinated by the potential of flushing $100 million down the drain to demolish the viaducts, when the land under it is too polluted to build on?

Imagine what other projects the city could undertake with $100 million? For example, how much would the streetcar project cost?

There are those of us who think that spending the money on the streetcar project would just be another way to flush it down the drain.

[Echowinds]

Eh, at least the streetcar at its very worst will become high capacity bus lines. That's still some value.

Knocking down viaducts? Negative value.

[Pinion]

Originally Posted by DKaz

If you drive enough, sure. My wife and I share one car. However, I am getting a Modo membership as it would be cheaper than getting a second car for those couple times a month I need a car. Or minivan. Or pickup truck or cargo van. Or SUV.

My wife and I do this too after trying to live with just Modo and transit for a long time. Now we have a car and Modo. Soon we might have two cars, but to do this we'll have to move further east. Maybe to Seylynn Village so we can be next to that sweet sweet highway.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by dreambrother808

I do worry that the viaducts' removal could turn out to be a mistake but a greater part of me is fascinated by the potential of their removal.

I agree. I think it's a stupid idea on the surface, but since I rarely use the viaducts, part of me is curious to see exactly what will happen.

People tend to fear change, often being completely irrational in the process.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

I believe the first 2 phases of the Streetcar is 80 million. Someone can correct em if I am wrong.

There has to be an ongoing cost. I can't imagine the streetcar will generate much more than 50% of it's operating cost in revenue...

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by Pinion

My wife and I do this too after trying to live with just Modo and transit for a long time. Now we have a car and Modo. Soon we might have two cars, but to do this we'll have to move further east. Maybe to Seylynn Village so we can be next to that sweet sweet highway.

My wife and I share a car as well.

What bothers me, but I think is changing, is the perception that you "need" a car for everything, and everybody needs one car. People don't seem to have a clear perception of what a car costs, and can't see past that to what else that money can be doing for you, in terms of transportation or anything else.

[jlousa]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

There has to be an ongoing cost. I can't imagine the streetcar will generate much more than 50% of it's operating cost in revenue...

I doubt that, Vancouver transit routes get around ~80% fare recovery, The UBC B-Line even with subidized rates for students gets even higher. No reason to belive that the streetcar line right downtown along major destinations with only one driver per trainset would get anywhere near 50%. I wouldn't be surprised if it were pretty damn close to 100% recovery after a few years. The money that Translink needs to cover the #50route would probably cover whatever the farebox was lacking on the streetcar line.

Back onto the Viaducts, the council item has already been postponed on several occassions, the latest I heard was it would come to council in June/2013. It's not in the first set of meetings this month so that June 26th as the possible date otherwise that's yet another postponing. I do beleive they were expecting to be dealing with a different provincial government by now regarding the MRN issue.

[WarrenC12]

Originally Posted by jlousa

I doubt that, Vancouver transit routes get around ~80% fare recovery, The UBC B-Line even with subidized rates for students gets even higher. No reason to belive that the streetcar line right downtown along major destinations with only one driver per trainset would get anywhere near 50%. I wouldn't be surprised if it were pretty damn close to 100% recovery after a few years. The money that Translink needs to cover the #50route would probably cover whatever the farebox was lacking on the streetcar line.

Big portions of the streetcar line are geared for tourists, not regular commuters. Did you ride the Olympic demo line? Not a huge capacity on that thing. I would think the articulated buses easily hold more passengers.

And who says Translink is paying for any of it?

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

People tend to fear change, often being completely irrational in the process.

Yes, this is exactly my point about the "sky not falling". We've seen it time and time again in cities around the world - tremendous opposition to change, terms like "carmaggedon" being thrown around, hysterical internet posts... And then when the change actually does happen the four horsemen fail to show up for it...

I actually like the viaducts, they make my bike ride downtown a lot easier and I'd like them to stay until the end of their service life. But if they do get torn down I have no doubt that commuters and commercial traffic will adapt just fine.

[Sir Conga]

Originally Posted by aberdeen5698

Yes, this is exactly my point about the "sky not falling". We've seen it time and time again in cities around the world - tremendous opposition to change, terms like "carmaggedon" being thrown around, hysterical internet posts... And then when the change actually does happen the four horsemen fail to show up for it...

I actually like the viaducts, they make my bike ride downtown a lot easier and I'd like them to stay until the end of their service life. But if they do get torn down I have no doubt that commuters and commercial traffic will adapt just fine.

I completely agree, especially with the last part. I'll add, and it's been mentioned here before: Beyond the "natural" life of the Viaducts, things will be a little different. There's a good chance a lot of autos will be automated by then, completely changing road dynamics. Heck, it's a long shot, but we might even have flying cars.

[theKB]

Originally Posted by Sir Conga

I completely agree, especially with the last part. I'll add, and it's been mentioned here before: Beyond the "natural" life of the Viaducts, things will be a little different. There's a good chance a lot of autos will be automated by then, completely changing road dynamics. Heck, it's a long shot, but we might even have flying cars.

I wouldn't be surprised if we started to see cars with at least autonomous attributes within ten years. The advances on that front are nothing short of spectacular. From in the 90's need to have specially constructed highways to where we are today with Google and other companies having fully autonomous solutions that can drive in normal vehicular traffic. Even as of now you already have certain systems that are aside from holding the wheel fairly autonomous with laser guided cruise control, queue assist and crash intervention.

Sorry went on a tangent there

Until the city stops growing removing infrastructure is just not appropriate.

[Alex Mackinnon]

Originally Posted by WarrenC12

My wife and I share a car as well.

What bothers me, but I think is changing, is the perception that you "need" a car for everything, and everybody needs one car. People don't seem to have a clear perception of what a car costs, and can't see past that to what else that money can be doing for you, in terms of transportation or anything else.

You could say that about owning a house versus renting to a much larger extent.

A good car with average use is about $0.40/km right now. It will come down over the next 5 years though. Expect for a city car style EV to cost about $0.25/km. That is with everything included, power, insurance and capital costs. In 10 more years that same type of car might just drive itself.