Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Deek1978

So, while Salt Lake desperately needs a CCH, we get two smaller hotels announcing in downtown. Though I am unfamiliar with Denver's current hotel needs, they just announced this:
http://www.whitelodging.com/about/gallery/developments/hyatt-house-and-hyatt-place-denver-downtown

The sad thing is, it is the same chain that's building one of the small ones here in Salt Lake.

That's bull. Salt Lake might be smaller, but we need a highrise hotel more then they do at this time. Come on Salt Lake, step up.

[Stenar]

Originally Posted by SLC Projects

That's bull. Salt Lake might be smaller, but we need a highrise hotel more then they do at this time. Come on Salt Lake, step up.

That hotel is only going to have 346 rooms. Nothing to cry about.

[scottharding]

A very long time ago, we had a discussion on this forum about the reversing trend of jobs and people migrating to the suburbs, about how the generation coming of age now generally prefers the cities again. I remember someone saying they predicted the poverty would move out to the suburbs. Here's an interesting article concerning that:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56327938-78/poverty-suburban-book-percent.html.csp

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Stenar

That hotel is only going to have 346 rooms. Nothing to cry about.

There you go again making jerk ass remarks. This is why we don't get along. Kind of funny that you would basically call me a cry baby when I think you do some of the most whinning on this forum over just about every development that comes to light.

You do realized that Salt Lake is in competition with Denver on a lot of different issues, one of them being getting conventions to choose us over Denver. And this just makes Denver a even better place to do business since...1) they already have their CCH and 2) when the city adds a new hotel it's taller then 6-stories.
Me stating that Salt Lake needs to get their act together isn't crying as you may put it. How many conventions do we lose to Denver each year due to our lack of hotel space and do to no CCH? There is a very real chance that Salt Lake could lose the outdoor retail show due to years and years of talk, talk, talk and nothing moves forward or at least not in a timely manner. Tired of us having to play catch up all the time.

[RyanD]

Originally Posted by Deek1978

Though I am unfamiliar with Denver's current hotel needs

Since I'm bored at work, this is from the Denver Post back in October. I'm not trying to start a city vs. city or anything, this is just plain facts of where we stand with our hotel market just as an fyi.

Study: Denver hotel transaction volume remains high
Denver hotel transaction volume remains high this year following a record-setting 2011, according to a study by Jones Lang LaSalle Hotels.
[...]
Nearly 500 more rooms are due to come on line in the near-term. Even so, we expect occupancy rates to hold steady while the inventory diversifies even further.
[...]
Denver's occupancy rate holds at 75 percent on a year-round basis
[...]

Full Article

[Merewether]

Originally Posted by scottharding

A very long time ago, we had a discussion on this forum about the reversing trend of jobs and people migrating to the suburbs, about how the generation coming of age now generally prefers the cities again. I remember someone saying they predicted the poverty would move out to the suburbs. Here's an interesting article concerning that:

http://www.sltrib.com/sltrib/news/56327938-78/poverty-suburban-book-percent.html.csp

There is an interactive map in this story from the Atlantic based on the same Brookings Inst research. You can click on a metro area and it gives you data. One notable thing about SAlt Lake compared to a number of metros of similar population size is the very high percentage (98%) of suburban poor who have access to public transit.

http://www.theatlanticcities.com/jobs-and-economy/2013/05/suburbanization-poverty/5633/

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by RyanD

Since I'm bored at work, this is from the Denver Post back in October. I'm not trying to start a city vs. city or anything, this is just plain facts of where we stand with our hotel market just as an fyi.

Salt Lake City is up there too....


"In Salt Lake City, the occupancy rate ticked up slightly, rising to 74.6 percent, compared with 74.3 percent in September 2011. Hotel and motel operators saw the average daily room rate jump to $97.80, compared with $92.40 last year, while revenue per available room increased from $68.65 last year to $72.95 last month."

http://m.sltrib.com/sltrib/mobile3/55132405-219/occupancy-percent-rate-compared.html.csp

All my searches for Salt Lake City hotel occupancy I got upper 60's to mid 70's during 2011 and 2012. but all Salt Lake City does is add a four story hotel here, a six story hotel there. It sounds like Denver is meeting the needs to add more hotel space in there downtown by having a developer willing to build a 21 story hotel. Salt Lake needs to step it up since according to the Trib our hotel occupancy rate is about where Denver's is now.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Stenar

That hotel is only going to have 346 rooms. Nothing to cry about.

That makes it worse. I don't really understand how it having only 346 rooms should make any Salt Laker feel better considering we could certainly support a 346 room hotel.

Especially when you consider, instead of getting one decent sized hotel like Denver is getting, Salt Lake will instead get two mid-sized hotels (one that looks just awful) that have a combined 334 rooms - 12 fewer rooms than that Denver development.

I guess it's just frustrating watching Salt Lake scale back on high-rise development or settle on just enough.

Maybe our convention center hotel can be a block of nothing but Crystal Inns!

[Lilljemalm]

Maybe it's time to start lobbying the SL County gov't to get the CCH built. Enought talking and debating and studying. Just do it. Who are the politicians we should write to and what are their addresss?

[Stenar]

WHAAAA... We could have had a 21-story hotel. We're getting basically the same number of rooms as Denver and the main reason I made my comment is that SLC Projects referenced this Denver hotel with our need for a convention hotel. This Denver hotel is nothing like a convention hotel, so don't cry about it.

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

That makes it worse. I don't really understand how it having only 346 rooms should make any Salt Laker feel better considering we could certainly support a 346 room hotel.

Especially when you consider, instead of getting one decent sized hotel like Denver is getting, Salt Lake will instead get two mid-sized hotels (one that looks just awful) that have a combined 334 rooms - 12 fewer rooms than that Denver development.

I guess it's just frustrating watching Salt Lake scale back on high-rise development or settle on just enough.

Maybe our convention center hotel can be a block of nothing but Crystal Inns!

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Stenar

WHAAAA... We could have had a 21-story hotel. We're getting basically the same number of rooms as Denver and the main reason I made my comment is that SLC Projects referenced this Denver hotel with our need for a convention hotel. This Denver hotel is nothing like a convention hotel, so don't cry about it.

You clearly missed everybody's point. Rather have 346 room hotel in one hotel that is taller and nicer to look at then to have the same number of rooms in two hotels that is a lot shorter and one if them is ugly. The point is Denver can develop larger hotels rather there convention center hotels or not while Salt Lake can't seem to get pass the building many little hotels from 4-6 stories all over town. That's our issue. Business leaders and visitors come to Salt Lake they much rather have their group all staying at the same hotel, not staying at few hotels across town from each other due to lack of our hotel size. That's the very reason why we continue to lose out to other cities like Denver who.....unlike us....can develop large hotels.

[Comrade]

Originally Posted by Stenar

WHAAAA... We could have had a 21-story hotel. We're getting basically the same number of rooms as Denver and the main reason I made my comment is that SLC Projects referenced this Denver hotel with our need for a convention hotel. This Denver hotel is nothing like a convention hotel, so don't cry about it.

Exactly. We're basically getting the same number of rooms as Denver in two developments that are suburban and ugly. Glad you agree with me on that one.

This is just a continued pattern of Salt Lake embracing a suburban mindset when it comes to a good portion of its developments. We see it with the handful of mid-rise hotels that have popped up downtown over the years ... all the way to the mid-rise residential complexes that dominate much of our development today.

We are not building an urban downtown. Instead, prime land is going to smaller projects that don't change the dynamics of this city. We could have extended our skyline westward with a taller development, but for reasons that I'm not even clear on, Salt Lake opted to break up the hotels into two smaller, uglier and cheaper buildings.

Why shouldn't I be pessimistic about what they'll do with the convention hotel? I'm sure they'll find a way to half-ass that one too. Maybe two 10-story 'towers' instead of a 20 story high-rise? Could happen.

[Future Mayor]

You all make it sound as if it's the cities fault, as if they are building the hotels.

One of the issues, is that the PRIME land you speak of is in plentiful supply. Yes the city does have a little bit to do with the shorter hotels, because that area was downzoned to only allow for shorter buildings, 75' max, but that doesn't mean they want it to look like the burbs. While I don't agree with that zoning, they for some reason felt that was the way to go in that area, and that is what we have. I personally would have preferred that spot to be zoned D-1.

Just because the buildings aren't overly tall doesn't make them "suburban". They are at the sidewalk, are oriented to the street and sidewalk, have a parking structure hidden behind rather than a sea of parking surrounding them, and will have 1st floor retail, how exactly is that suburban? The Crystal Inn, pictured a few posts back, now that is suburban, and obviously the city IS getting away from allowing that type of development.

[Comrade]

The city has a lot more say than what you're suggesting. I mean, what is the point of even having a city council if they have no say in what type of development is built in their downtown? It just seems this excuse is used a lot on this forum. I call bullshit. The city has the ability to dictate what kind of development is developed downtown and they've been very liberal in allowing pretty much anything from low-rise residential to sprawling, ugly hospitality buildings.

Yeah, you're right, it's not suburban in the sense there's monster parking - but it is suburban for a development you'd expect in the downtown of a fairly large metropolitan area. That has been Salt Lake's constant fight - the fact the downtown area has been consumed mostly by minor, mid-rise developments (both residential and hospitality) that aren't awful, and certainly not at the level of what might be built out in WVC, but also not quite at the level you'd expect to see in a good portion of downtowns.

And because of that, Salt Lake continues to lag behind cities it's in relative competition with - including the likes of Sacramento, Austin, Portland, Charlotte, Orlando, Indianapolis and others. So, while I wouldn't dare compare us to Denver, because, realistically, they dwarf our city at every level, when it comes to those other mid-sized metros, I just feel we're falling behind on the whole downtown experience.

These developments don't change that. These two hotels are not significant and it's sad we're treating 'em as significant developments because it just shows the dearth of major development we're seeing downtown in the wake of City Creek finishing - and that goes to another point: it seems the only innovated development downtown nowadays is by way of the LDS Church. The only concrete project down the pike that excites me is UPAC ... everything else is either minor or in the preliminary stages (and who knows how long until the UPAC tower is constructed).

It just seems Salt Lake is content on smaller projects and I don't get excited over those. I see no reason to fawn all over the Boyer Office Building or the latest shoddy Cowboy Partners building.

Maybe I'm unrealistic in what I want - but I look at that first page, the page YOU made a year ago and some of those developments aren't even out of the planning stages.

WTC Plaza? Not gonna happen - at least not for a good decade with 'em now moved into the old Eagle Gate Tower.

Wasatch Properties? We've been speculating about this one for a looong time. Sure it'll be even longer.

Ballpark Lofts? Anyone, anyone?

Hardage Group Redevelopment? Is this still a thing?

508 South Temple Condos? This development, when it first was released in 2007 really got me excited. Their site, though, remains quiet on any potential. I'm guessing it's all a pipe dream now.

City Center Lofts? This was going to be fairly revolutionary for the city ... and it's not going to happen.



I was REALLY excited for that years ago and now the website doesn't even exist anymore.

radi8 condos? Been waiting since 2007 on news of this one. Still nothing.

DA Building? My guess is the funding won't give us the original concept and it'll be scaled down to something less attractive. That's the Salt Lake Way.

I know I sound typically negative. But I've been on this forum a long time and it is depressing how often I've gotten excited over projects, only to be disappointed because they've scaled back or the projects have just absolutely gone nowhere. It wouldn't be a big deal if we had other major projects to fall back on, and while I don't want to sound like I'm being selfish here, considering City Creek has been a huge asset to the development of downtown, but it just seems Salt Lake is not keeping up with other cities of its size. Sure, you can point to those cities that are struggling economically, but I constantly hear how Utah's economy is one of the best in the nation and we are one of the fastest growing states in the country, so it would reason that would trickle down into the development here. But just check out the proposals in Austin and Portland and Charlotte to get an understanding of how far we still have to go and when these minor developments are proposed, if anyone says anything negative about 'em, you're called out on it.

Well sorry. I don't find those two hotels all that attractive. I'm disappointed that's the best we can get in an area of the city that is fairly suburban for a downtown. Yes, it's more urban compared to parts of WVC and Sandy - but we also realize this is in the context of downtown Salt Lake City. We're not talking Rose Park or SugarHouse or South Salt Lake - we're talking two blocks from heart of our Central Business District.

But that's besides the point. If we were seeing larger residential development, and an actual concrete plan for the convention hotel, I could probably let this go. But like I said, just go through the first page and look at all the developments and you'll see why I'm not satisfied - the cool developments, the shit like the City Center Lofts, are not going to happen, while the ugly and cheap developments like Liberty Gateway are popping up all over downtown and the areas surrounding it. Snooooze.

And even the development I get excited over, like the State Street Plaza, construction on that is so slow that I'm becoming increasingly pessimistic that anything will rise there.

Do you know when they announced this project breaking ground it was supposed to be completed by Thanksgiving THIS YEAR? I doubt that's going to happen.

They broke ground a YEAR AGO and it looks like they just broke ground.

I'm sure Stenar will say I'm crying, and waaah, and whatever. But it's annoying to see such potential go untapped because, who the fuck knows? Is Salt Lake one of the hottest economies in the nation? Based on development? It surely doesn't look like it.

/rant

[SLC_Rising]

My frustration over the hotel Denver is getting stems from what coulda/shoulda been where the two hotels are going across from ESA, not comparing it to a CCH which of course would/needs to be much grander than the Hyatt House Denver is getting.

[scottharding]

I sympathize, Comrade, with your rant. This block is surrounded by mass transit, the largest arena in the region, the Gateway, and the Salt Palace Convention Center, and these two crap hotels are what we get? It seems like a very short-sighted use of the land, and it suggests a problem with the city council and the zoning of the area, not to mention the generally mentality of those who want Salt Lake and downtown to be "world-class."
I also think it's another example of the problem with our huge blocks. This block should have been cut in two right after demolition of the warehouse, and if hotel rooms were the plan, it should have been a single hotel building higher on a smaller footprint.

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

The city has a lot more say than what you're suggesting. I mean, what is the point of even having a city council if they have no say in what type of development is built in their downtown? It just seems this excuse is used a lot on this forum. I call bullshit. The city has the ability to dictate what kind of development is developed downtown and they've been very liberal in allowing pretty much anything from low-rise residential to sprawling, ugly hospitality buildings.

Yeah, you're right, it's not suburban in the sense there's monster parking - but it is suburban for a development you'd expect in the downtown of a fairly large metropolitan area. That has been Salt Lake's constant fight - the fact the downtown area has been consumed mostly by minor, mid-rise developments (both residential and hospitality) that aren't awful, and certainly not at the level of what might be built out in WVC, but also not quite at the level you'd expect to see in a good portion of downtowns.

And because of that, Salt Lake continues to lag behind cities it's in relative competition with - including the likes of Sacramento, Austin, Portland, Charlotte, Orlando, Indianapolis and others. So, while I wouldn't dare compare us to Denver, because, realistically, they dwarf our city at every level, when it comes to those other mid-sized metros, I just feel we're falling behind on the whole downtown experience.

These developments don't change that. These two hotels are not significant and it's sad we're treating 'em as significant developments because it just shows the dearth of major development we're seeing downtown in the wake of City Creek finishing - and that goes to another point: it seems the only innovated development downtown nowadays is by way of the LDS Church. The only concrete project down the pike that excites me is UPAC ... everything else is either minor or in the preliminary stages (and who knows how long until the UPAC tower is constructed).

It just seems Salt Lake is content on smaller projects and I don't get excited over those. I see no reason to fawn all over the Boyer Office Building or the latest shoddy Cowboy Partners building.

Maybe I'm unrealistic in what I want - but I look at that first page, the page YOU made a year ago and some of those developments aren't even out of the planning stages.

WTC Plaza? Not gonna happen - at least not for a good decade with 'em now moved into the old Eagle Gate Tower.

Wasatch Properties? We've been speculating about this one for a looong time. Sure it'll be even longer.

Ballpark Lofts? Anyone, anyone?

Hardage Group Redevelopment? Is this still a thing?

508 South Temple Condos? This development, when it first was released in 2007 really got me excited. Their site, though, remains quiet on any potential. I'm guessing it's all a pipe dream now.

City Center Lofts? This was going to be fairly revolutionary for the city ... and it's not going to happen.



I was REALLY excited for that years ago and now the website doesn't even exist anymore.

radi8 condos? Been waiting since 2007 on news of this one. Still nothing.

DA Building? My guess is the funding won't give us the original concept and it'll be scaled down to something less attractive. That's the Salt Lake Way.

I know I sound typically negative. But I've been on this forum a long time and it is depressing how often I've gotten excited over projects, only to be disappointed because they've scaled back or the projects have just absolutely gone nowhere. It wouldn't be a big deal if we had other major projects to fall back on, and while I don't want to sound like I'm being selfish here, considering City Creek has been a huge asset to the development of downtown, but it just seems Salt Lake is not keeping up with other cities of its size. Sure, you can point to those cities that are struggling economically, but I constantly hear how Utah's economy is one of the best in the nation and we are one of the fastest growing states in the country, so it would reason that would trickle down into the development here. But just check out the proposals in Austin and Portland and Charlotte to get an understanding of how far we still have to go and when these minor developments are proposed, if anyone says anything negative about 'em, you're called out on it.

Well sorry. I don't find those two hotels all that attractive. I'm disappointed that's the best we can get in an area of the city that is fairly suburban for a downtown. Yes, it's more urban compared to parts of WVC and Sandy - but we also realize this is in the context of downtown Salt Lake City. We're not talking Rose Park or SugarHouse or South Salt Lake - we're talking two blocks from heart of our Central Business District.

But that's besides the point. If we were seeing larger residential development, and an actual concrete plan for the convention hotel, I could probably let this go. But like I said, just go through the first page and look at all the developments and you'll see why I'm not satisfied - the cool developments, the shit like the City Center Lofts, are not going to happen, while the ugly and cheap developments like Liberty Gateway are popping up all over downtown and the areas surrounding it. Snooooze.

And even the development I get excited over, like the State Street Plaza, construction on that is so slow that I'm becoming increasingly pessimistic that anything will rise there.

Do you know when they announced this project breaking ground it was supposed to be completed by Thanksgiving THIS YEAR? I doubt that's going to happen.

They broke ground a YEAR AGO and it looks like they just broke ground.

I'm sure Stenar will say I'm crying, and waaah, and whatever. But it's annoying to see such potential go untapped because, who the fuck knows? Is Salt Lake one of the hottest economies in the nation? Based on development? It surely doesn't look like it.

/rant

Nailed it. Compare to Austin who Salt Lake seems to come up to 2nd in a lot of areas a lot of the times Austin sure has a lot more to show for it then we do based on development.

[ajiuO]

I had no clue that the Public Broadcast System had any plans to leas the old Eat-A-Burger building.. This is fantastic!!!

But seriously has anyone else noticed a rise in graffiti lately?

[SLC Projects]

Originally Posted by Comrade Reynolds

Exactly. We're basically getting the same number of rooms as Denver in two developments that are suburban and ugly. Glad you agree with me on that one.

This is just a continued pattern of Salt Lake embracing a suburban mindset when it comes to a good portion of its developments. We see it with the handful of mid-rise hotels that have popped up downtown over the years ... all the way to the mid-rise residential complexes that dominate much of our development today.

We are not building an urban downtown. Instead, prime land is going to smaller projects that don't change the dynamics of this city. We could have extended our skyline westward with a taller development, but for reasons that I'm not even clear on, Salt Lake opted to break up the hotels into two smaller, uglier and cheaper buildings.

Why shouldn't I be pessimistic about what they'll do with the convention hotel? I'm sure they'll find a way to half-ass that one too. Maybe two 10-story 'towers' instead of a 20 story high-rise? Could happen.

Exactly. Love how you quote the word "Tower" to a 10-story building. Developers do that a lot here.
But point taken, so many missed opportunities.

[ajiuO]

I'm personally not all that excited for the low-rise hotels going up by ESA. I currently have a view of all of the old brick buildings in the area... I have a feeling that this chud is going to block my view... I have very selfish reasons for not liking this project but also feel that its kind of a waste of good land.. :-/