PITTSBURGH | Development Rundown II

[East Edge]

Originally Posted by Jonboy1983

While more and more high-rises would be cool, too many clustered in one place would look just awful. In my opinion, expanding high-rise developments into the "fringe" areas would give off the image of an even more vibrant core than just clustering everything in one little area.

Not to mention, the existing older buildings are what give Downtown its character. Granted, there are a number of surface lots that could be developed, but I do wonder if there are any really short buildings -- as in under three floors that are left in Downtown. If there are any of these that have little to no historical significance, then I could see those go in favor of new development...

My thoughts exactly Jonboy! it would be nice to see the skyline expand east with a couple more towers instead of just dropping off after Grant street. They wouldnt need to be so many stories since the elevation is higher. I love the old world feel of our older buildings and would hate to see any more torn down if there is an opportunity to expand into the strip and civic arena sites.

[pghusa]

Originally Posted by pyrohy

I always thought it was odd that Carnegie didn't get into alot of real estate, you would think downtown even through all our crazy demolition would have many buildings baring his name.

When Carnegie was active there was no Point State Park, Mellon Square, and Market Square was a giant roofed bazaar, Ft. Duquesne Blvd. and Liberty Avenue had elevated and street level Pennsylvania Railroad freight trains so downtown was truly "down-town", the "uptown" section is where Carnegie did get into real estate with Carnegie Tech (CMU), his massive library (of that era), natural history museum, concert hall, etc. For the 1900s and 1910s 700 foot glass office towers wasn't what was in style.

Besides we had to share Carnegie with New York where he built just as many cultural edifices, Scotland where he bought a real life castle (Skibo) and all the millions he gave away building libraries from California to the midwest to the southern US to Africa, Asia, Europe and South America.

So yes he was in real estate but kind of like the way one of us would be if we won the $500 million powerball jackpot, we all love Pittsburgh but there is a whole world out there too.

The Oakland section owes its "3rd largest commuter core in the state" to Carnegie, which attracted Phipps and Dreyfus' Forbes Field and Pitt from the northside to build their campus in Oakland.

[BrianTH]

I think the ideal development of the Lower Hill site may depend on proper sequencing. Start at the highest (most eastern) portions with some decent-sized multi-unit apartment buildings, which I think the market will easily absorb. As you move down the slope toward Downtown, the dynamics in the Class A office market may make some taller (15-25 story) office buildings adjacent to Downtown a reality. If not, I'll bet you can keep filling in with 8-12 story mixed-use buildings (residential, hotel, and more modest office spaces with ground-floor retail and entertainment). Worst case scenario you end up making that whole area, including Consol and a chunk of Uptown, resemble the part of DC around the Verizon Center.

[BrianTH]

The news about the Gardens getting approval and potentially starting in July is great. I particularly liked this bit:

The biggest [change] involved eliminating a garage entrance and exit on Fourth Avenue and having all vehicles enter and exit at Forbes, which may prompt the city to make the one-way street two ways at some point in the future. With the change, Millcraft will construct a small park on Fourth where the garage entrance and exit would have been. Even with that amenity, Millcraft still will be 3 percent short of the 10 percent open space required under city law. As a result, the developer will pay about $22,000 to the city in lieu of that additional open space.

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/busi...ket-square-gets-ok-687579/#ixzz2TM20ApQS

Less open space is fantastic (I don't like that requirement to begin with, and it is particularly unnecessary this close to Market Square). I'd actually be happiest if they built right through to Fourth Avenue, but a parklet there will serve the purpose of making Fourth a more pleasant walk than the prior surface parking lot:

http://goo.gl/maps/n1jAc

Also good news in that article about developer interest in the ALMONO site:

At the former coke works site, a preliminary request for proposals for residential housing has produced interest from 10 developers, said Don Smith, president of the Regional Industrial Development Corp., which is managing the 178-acre site for owner Almono LP. The RIDC briefed commission members Tuesday on plans for the property, which include more than 2 million square feet of office and research and development space and as many as 1,200 units of housing in the form of townhouses, condos or apartments. Mr. Smith said a mix of local and national developers responded to the initial request for proposals. He added he was "very encouraged" by the interest. He would not name any of the developers but said there were "some really high quality developers, sort of the best of the local developers, plus a number of really good reputation national developers responded." RIDC officials hope to issue a final request for proposals in July and potentially award a contract in late summer.

Again, starting with the residential seems very smart.

[BrianTH]

By the way, the PNC bank branch on Market Square is officially closing:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/business/news/pnc-bank-to-close-10-branches-in-region-687669/

PPG's new owners have said they wanted to liven up their corner of Market Square, and this is a great opportunity to add one or more tenants more in keeping with the new scene there.

[kennypip]

Originally Posted by glowrock

It looks like the Gardens development has finally been approved after some modifications, and Millcraft expects to begin construction by July. Great news for the area surrounding Market Square!

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/business/news/gardens-at-market-square-gets-ok-687579/

Aaron (Glowrock)

During my starbucks run this morning, I noticed that drilling has started.... Cant wait for construction to begin.

[markson33]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

By the way, the PNC bank branch on Market Square is officially closing:

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/business/news/pnc-bank-to-close-10-branches-in-region-687669/

PPG's new owners have said they wanted to liven up their corner of Market Square, and this is a great opportunity to add one or more tenants more in keeping with the new scene there.

They already have a restaurant pegged for that corner. They haven't said who yet, but its a better use for that space.

[kennypip]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

I think the ideal development of the Lower Hill site may depend on proper sequencing. Start at the highest (most eastern) portions with some decent-sized multi-unit apartment buildings, which I think the market will easily absorb. As you move down the slope toward Downtown, the dynamics in the Class A office market may make some taller (15-25 story) office buildings adjacent to Downtown a reality. If not, I'll bet you can keep filling in with 8-12 story mixed-use buildings (residential, hotel, and more modest office spaces with ground-floor retail and entertainment). Worst case scenario you end up making that whole area, including Consol and a chunk of Uptown, resemble the part of DC around the Verizon Center.

The new City Center development near china town is massive! Its not tall but it really adds to the density of that area.

[Jonboy1983]

Originally Posted by kennypip

The new City Center development near china town is massive! Its not tall but it really adds to the density of that area.

Which development is that?

[Minivan Werner]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

Brief info about the Carnegie-Illinois Building:

http://www.emporis.com/building/carnegiebuilding-pittsburgh-pa-usa

Some relevant images (the Carnegie-Illinois Building is the one with the arch over the entrance on Fifth):







And gone . . .

You can kinda tell the age of a building based on how much soot was built up on its surface.

[pyrohy]

Some info from the Trib on former Church Brew Works brewer, Steve Sloan's Lawrenceville brewery; Routabout beer http://roundaboutbeer.com/

http://www.bizjournals.com/pittsburgh/ne...r-to-open-new-lawrenceville.html?ana=twt

[MattofSloppyVariety]

I'm not sure what's going on in Oakland, but at the corner of Centre and Craig they have that one parking lot and the old Rite Aid store roped off and there are machines in the lot.

Also this might not be a blip for Pittsburgh, but they tore down a building at the School for the Deaf and are working on building a residence dorm for some of the students. Been noisy as hell over here the past few weeks.

[doo dah]

Originally Posted by MattofSloppyVariety

I'm not sure what's going on in Oakland, but at the corner of Centre and Craig they have that one parking lot and the old Rite Aid store roped off and there are machines in the lot.

Also this might not be a blip for Pittsburgh, but they tore down a building at the School for the Deaf and are working on building a residence dorm for some of the students. Been noisy as hell over here the past few weeks.

The old Giant Eagle is being torn down and a new CVS will be built; the one at Centre and Enfield will move up there.

[Steel City Scotty]

Something tells me this board isn't going to like this news...

http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/busi...fth-avenue-department-store-site-687970/

Developers sink apartment plans at former Saks Fifth Avenue department store site
May 17, 2013 12:09 am
By Mark Belko / Pittsburgh Post-Gazette

Two local developers have scrapped plans to build 130 apartments as part of a proposed redevelopment of the former Saks Fifth Avenue department store site on Smithfield Street, Downtown.

Instead, Millcraft Investments and McKnight Realty Partners will concentrate on constructing a 450-space parking garage and 25,000 square feet of retail space to replace Saks, which closed in March 2012, leaving a vacant four-story building in its wake.

The apartments would have been built on top of the garage. In the mix, the developers were thinking about including 24 tiny 500-square-foot studios that would have leased for about $900 a month. They also were considering a rooftop swimming pool, a spa and a yoga room for the complex.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/busi...artment-store-site-687970/#ixzz2TYy4uxnN

[BrianTH]

It stinks to high heaven. The URA should definitely reopen the RFP process, because only doing parking on this site should not be considered acceptable unless it is proven beyond any shadow of a doubt that is the only viable option. In contrast, the way this is going down looks like a lameduck regime is trying to get in a last round of back-scratching.

[Evergrey]

Wow... just a plain old parking garage, eh? Yes, it does stink to high heaven... and Millcraft as a developer in Downtown totally sucks. Seriously, Millcraft gets all this exposure in the local media... but they suck. The Gardens is little better than this proposal... and Piatt Place is kinda blah (I suppose it's ok for what could've been an embarrassing white elephant of a property). They seem to have some sort of favored status because they were one of the first developers to enter the Downtown scene in the middle of last decade... before things really took off.

Yinzers like Millcraft and McKnight Realty don't know anything about contemporary urban design. We need East Coasters like PMC to come in and do things right Downtown.

[Evergrey]

btw... I love these quotes from the Post-Gazette article... Ravenstahl-era Pittsburgh political/developer incestuous cronyism at its finest.

As a principal in McKnight and a URA board member, Mr. Rudolph has been recusing himself in discussions involving the property.

Mr. Rubinstein said he saw no need to revisit the request for proposals now that the Millcraft/McKnight team has changed course. He said the other two proposals were "insufficient for the site," adding that one was an "architect's conceptual ideas, not a development proposal." The other involved a hotel, but Mr. Rubinstein said the URA was working with the developer on other sites in the city.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/busi...artment-store-site-687970/#ixzz2TZdlIs1i


and of course... my favorite slimeball...

Yarone Zober, URA board chairman and chief of staff to Mayor Luke Ravenstahl, said Millcraft and McKnight would have had the winning proposal even without the proposed apartments.

"An office or residential tower was not what clinched the proposal. That was the cherry on top," he said.

Read more: http://www.post-gazette.com/stories/busi...artment-store-site-687970/#ixzz2TZeGivk6

[BrianTH]

Originally Posted by Evergrey

The Gardens is little better than this proposal.

The Gardens is WAY better, because it is only about 1/3 parking, and 2/3 hotel and office.

And in fact if you were right that all those additional uses don't make a difference in the case of the Gardens, then we would have no cause to complain about them eliminating the residential portion of this project, since given your "reasoning" that residential component didn't actually make a difference. But that, of course, is nonsense.

The far better point is that if they can do a mixed-use project like that for The Gardens, there is zero reason to believe they can't do a project like that in this location.

Edit: Incidentally, the State Office Building/River Vue and Market Square Place were both great reuse projects (somehow left off your review of Millcraft projects Downtown). I have no idea what is going on behind the scenes, but I am more inclined to suspect the problem is McKnight, between the McKnight guy being on the URA board, and them plausibly wanting parking but maybe nothing else given their ownership of and plans for the Oliver Building.

[Evergrey]

Originally Posted by BrianTH

The Gardens is WAY better, because it is only about 1/3 parking, and 2/3 hotel and office.

And in fact if you were right that doesn't make a difference in the case of the Gardens, then we would have no cause to complain about them eliminating the residential portion of this project, since given your "reasoning" that residential component didn't actually make a difference. But that, of course, is nonsense.

Actually... The Garden's is 40%+ parking. And a lower-tier hotel chain with a token amount of office space as ornaments to a parking tower doesn't exactly meet my expectations for a prime Downtown site. We can say... "oh... it's better than the void that was on that site previously"... or we can say... "oh, it's Pittsburgh... we can only expect mediocrity because we suck"... but it's still a very underwhelming project for that site.

But you can focus on nitpicking about The Gardens while ignoring the true point of my post.

[glowrock]

Sorry, but I've gotta take BrianTH's take on this one. I have no idea why you're so harsh on Millcraft for The Gardens project. Fine, so there's a large garage. Okay, there's also a decent amount of office space, plus the hotel plus some retail space. I fail to see the problem with it. Besides, every city needs a mix of hotels, and there's nothing wrong with a Hilton Garden Inn. Frankly, the rooms at those places are normally nicer than the more supposedly-upscale Hilton brand itself!

I'm no fan of the nixing of residential for the Saks site, either. But I'm tempted to think it's McKnight and not Millcraft that's the issue, especially given that Millcraft really has done some good work downtown in terms of reuse.

Aaron (Glowrock)