[St. John's] The Official Project Thread

[mrjanejacobs]

Ehh... they're not much different than having big-box stores (like on Stavanger Drive) on our water-front... I think it's a big mistake and poor planning.

It's a prime-location - why not some public space? Folks complain about a harbour fence, how is a 3 story high big-box store doing anything but functioning as a fence?

Based on the water-facing side of The Keg - I'm not that enthusiastic.

[SignalHillHiker]

I'm sure it'll look much better than a big box store. The Keg is a completely unremarkable building and even that one looks much better than a big box store.

And even if the design was identical to a suburban Old Navy, it's downtown. The offensive part of big box store developments, to me, is the reliance on automobiles, the endless expanses of surface parking lots, etc. None of that will be an issue in this location.

I see it as us having some pretty kick-— harbourfront kiosks.

[Robg]

Having two world class restaurants will be a far better attraction for tourists and locals alike. Plus once the patio is complete it will add some character and be a great place to enjoy the view with a drink or two involved.

[mrjanejacobs]

Have you seen the area around The Keg at dinner-hour? It's the most car-wrecked place in the downtown. You think that problem won't worsen with PF Chang's? It's not an area that people enjoy walking through.

World-class restaurants? Lol. Just because they are literally around the world, doesn't make them 'world-class'. And a massive, generic resto is going to aid tourism? Doubtfully - tourists will probably go, but it won't help tourism by sending people into a resto that they can go to anywhere... again... it has no sense of place (the core of successful tourism).

[cam477]

To be fair, they tried a public space in that location before and it wasn’t utilized at all. They built those little kiosks and the place might as well have been a vacant lot or surface parking lot. Granted, it was a pretty cheap looking design and I’m sure it could have been done much better.

In my opinion Harbour drive is one of the most poorly planned streets in the city; if not the worst. It’s right in our downtown, it’s on the waterfront and yet it offers nothing but parking garages, surface parking lots and the backs of buildings. At this point anything that gets people down there will help. In my experience harbor drive is an all-around unenjoyable place to spend time. It’s always colder because you’re near the water, it offers no shops/bars/restaurants/coffee shops, it smells bad, etc. So I can see planners having hesitation when it comes to spending on public spaces down there when most people don’t go down there for anything more than a parking spot.

In my opinion these buildings well help a street that desperately needs it.

[SignalHillHiker]

And that makes sense, given that it's a new street. Until very recently, Water Street was the very first street up from the harbour in St. John's. And, from the water, all you'd see would be the backs of the Water Street buildings, all of which had their own finger piers, etc.

So we build Harbour Drive between the backs of the Water Street buildings and the harbour. And we're still trying to fill in the difference.

[Trevor3]

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

Have you seen the area around The Keg at dinner-hour? It's the most car-wrecked place in the downtown. You think that problem won't worsen with PF Chang's? It's not an area that people enjoy walking through.

World-class restaurants? Lol. Just because they are literally around the world, doesn't make them 'world-class'. And a massive, generic resto is going to aid tourism? Doubtfully - tourists will probably go, but it won't help tourism by sending people into a resto that they can go to anywhere... again... it has no sense of place (the core of successful tourism).

You're really on the right track here. The plan is basically a doubling of the Keg's traffic, if not more, and the first thing I thought of when I seen Signal's photo of the site is that it will be blocking out the Murray Premises.

Attracting major chain restaurants such as this is more useful in attracting newcomers to live in the city rather than improving tourism. A tourist wants to experience Newfoundland food and culture, so chances are they're going to go a restaurant or pub on George Street, not a worldwide chain. This is especially true of Newfoundland because of the way we've built our tourism product. We're marketing the province as a different world so people are coming here to experience something different. The people who are going to a place like this are the people who live in St. John's.

For someone who has an opportunity to move to St. John's from a mainland city, seeing major brands such as Chang's setting up does lend some weight and credibility as a city with amenities (the whole concept of amenities is erroneous in my opinion, but that's a separate rant). Somebody from Toronto or Montreal for example might look at something like that and say "Wow, didn't expect that here, maybe there's more to this city than I thought".

[cam477]

I completey agree with everything you said Trevor. I really have no idea why we're building chains downtown.

[Robg]

All solid points everyone, I`m just excited for motti's I think it will be something different and the fact that its an original concept without the restrictions of a chain will allow for some creative concepts and I know they have great head chef already in place.

[mrjanejacobs]

Originally Posted by cam477

To be fair, they tried a public space in that location before and it wasn’t utilized at all. They built those little kiosks and the place might as well have been a vacant lot or surface parking lot. Granted, it was a pretty cheap looking design and I’m sure it could have been done much better.

In my opinion Harbour drive is one of the most poorly planned streets in the city; if not the worst. It’s right in our downtown, it’s on the waterfront and yet it offers nothing but parking garages, surface parking lots and the backs of buildings. At this point anything that gets people down there will help. In my experience harbor drive is an all-around unenjoyable place to spend time. It’s always colder because you’re near the water, it offers no shops/bars/restaurants/coffee shops, it smells bad, etc. So I can see planners having hesitation when it comes to spending on public spaces down there when most people don’t go down there for anything more than a parking spot.

In my opinion these buildings well help a street that desperately needs it.

I really disagree with this thought-process - that is, 'that it's really bad, so anything (even if it's not very good) is better than if we do nothing'.

I know it's not your intention and I can understand why you think this way (because Harbour Drive is, as you said, pretty abysmal). Rather, this way of thinking is how bad planning occurs. The thing is that, yes, for the time being, Harbour Drive is bad (no debate), but if we build more and more of these buildings (though they may improve the street temporarily), they are permanent and more often than not, in 15-20 years, we are going to regret having ever allowed these to be built. We can't just plan for tomorrow (it's basically the corner-stone of planning-theory in this City).

With that said, there are lots of ways to improve a street and an area of a City. The kiosks that were there were half-baked (to say the least). I liked them but they were really a band-aid public space for a bad area. You can't have a public space without people. First you need to bring people there with a variety of services and commerce, a place to visit - you need to give them a reason for visiting. These box stores won't do that, unfortunately, as many patrons will endorse the drive, eat, drive routine in going to PF Chang's like they often do when visiting the Keg. Sigh.

[Copes]

Just want to confirm something.

I might be getting confused, but are we certain beyond a doubt that a PF Changs IS going there? My roommate seems to think it is a local chef who is opening a restaurant and bar. Maybe he is in part of the building? Maybe my roommate is completely off base? I'll ask him.

[jeddy1989]

City Re-Thinking Parking at Square

Staff with the city of St. John's are re-thinking parking options at Churchill Square. The city is getting rid of all the existing parking meters to make way for single parking space metres that will accept payment with standard Canadian coins, smartcards, and credit cards. Originally, Churchill Square was slated to get a kiosk where motorists would pay for a parking space. Following the results of a parking metre study commissioned by the city, staff have recommended that Churchill Square have the same system as other areas. Council will vote on the issue, along with other police and traffic recommendations, this afternoon.

http://www.vocm.com/newsarticle.asp?mn=2&id=33095&latest=1

[nando]

Complaining about parking because a new restaurant is going up downtown? Come on guys. Remember all the new condos and office buildings that are going up downtown? That's an influx of thousands of people into the downtown core. Insane traffic and rough parking are going to be the new reality... but there's also going to be a LOT more foot traffic as well.

There's nothing wrong with chain restaurants being in the core. Remember that not everybody, for better or for worse, likes taking the chance and trying boutique restaurants. There are a lot of folk who like having an option or two that they are familiar and comfortable with - this is especially true of business travelers. As long as the building looks nice and fits with the area, I say run with it.

[rwspencer38]

I completely agree with Nando. I very much think that we could use some bigger chains in the downtown core as it would not only offer a familar choice for tourists, but also increase the local traffic looking for better options. I often get a feeling that we want this completely different world for our downtown area, where nothing but local shops and restaurants exist with little or no influence for other cities (a bit extreme but you get the idea). Don't get me wrong, I love enjoying local restaurants but at the same time I think it would fantastic to see bigger chains enter our DT. Despite the area being a huge draw for tourists, it also serves the local residents who do not always want to eat at one of the dozen seafood places downtown. Variety is always good, even if it is not local.

[jeddy1989]

Originally Posted by nando

Complaining about parking because a new restaurant is going up downtown? Come on guys. Remember all the new condos and office buildings that are going up downtown? That's an influx of thousands of people into the downtown core. Insane traffic and rough parking are going to be the new reality... but there's also going to be a LOT more foot traffic as well.

There's nothing wrong with chain restaurants being in the core. Remember that not everybody, for better or for worse, likes taking the chance and trying boutique restaurants. There are a lot of folk who like having an option or two that they are familiar and comfortable with - this is especially true of business travelers. As long as the building looks nice and fits with the area, I say run with it.

exactly, Options are key to drawing many different people into the downtown and giving options for all demographics, tourists that want something familiar, locals that would enjoy it, as well as the business traveler that would enjoy options and some familiar international chains along with the local restaurants)

Also many people often use the bar at these restaurants and then head to other downtown establishments after the meal/social at the bar

[Arrakis]

Not sure why everyone is so upset about the design of the Keg building on the harbour front. I think it looks fine. It's definitely better than the useless kiosks that were there before and originally, all that was there was a run down warehouse. So I feel this is a great improvement to the area. The building could have easily ended up being clad in crappy corrugated siding but at least it's got nice brick and stonework there. Looking forward to seeing how the new restaurants are going to look. It's becoming obvious though that the new restaurants are going to look nothing like the initial sketch that was circulating around when the project was proposed. Would love to see a rendering of what they are building now.

Originally Posted by mrjanejacobs

Ehh... they're not much different than having big-box stores (like on Stavanger Drive) on our water-front... I think it's a big mistake and poor planning.

It's a prime-location - why not some public space? Folks complain about a harbour fence, how is a 3 story high big-box store doing anything but functioning as a fence?

Based on the water-facing side of The Keg - I'm not that enthusiastic.

[ed0797]

I was at the Keg around mid february and our family discussed what was being built next door with our waiter. He said that they knew a PF changs was being built there and an "authentic" italian restaurant. He seemed pretty sure of it, and said that they were waiting to see what the two restaurants menus would be like.

[jeddy1989]

Manor loses application for restaurant

A historic bed and breakfast on Waterford Bridge Road won’t expand its operation to include a restaurant.
Waterford Manor had applied to the City of St. John’s to open a restaurant in its building at 185 Waterford Bridge Rd., but due to a lack of parking spaces the city rejected the application.
Coun. Tom Hann, chairman of the planning and development committee, said the manor has seven guest rooms and can accommodate up to 16 overnight guests.
Under city regulations, he told council Monday during its regular weekly meeting that bed and breakfast operations have to provide one off-street parking space for every two bedrooms. He said a restaurant requires one parking space per five square metres of seating area and the Manor was looking to have a seating area of 107 square metres.
Hann said based on the regulations, the total parking spaces needed for both operations would be 28. The manor only has 14 now.
“So council has the authority to relieve the parking requirements so I table it for discussion, but the staff recommendation is it not be approved because it only meets 50 per cent of the required parking spaces,” Hann said.
Because the building is designated as heritage, city council has the authority to use its discretion to waive the parking, which is what Deputy Mayor Shannie Duff suggested it should do.
“I’m inclined to agree with it in the sense that it is a designated historic property and it does provide 14 parking spaces,” she said, adding it’s unlikely the rooms and restaurant would be full all the time. “I just think finding viability for important historic structures, that is why it’s discretionary for us and we have waived parking requirements for other B and Bs, so I’m going to vote for it because I don’t think it will cause a great disruption,” said Duff, suggesting the owners could bring back a smaller plan to make the idea work.
Along with the lack of parking for the manor, councillors were concerned about the lack of parking in in the Waterford Bridge Road area.
Ward Coun. Bruce Tilley said on any given day he’s getting phone calls and emails from residents expressing concerns about parking.
“I’m speaking against it for a number of reasons,” he said. “Firstly it doesn’t meet the requirements for parking, and with the approval of a restaurant means additional traffic and from the residents of Waterford Bridge Road I get calls twice a week, because at least 10,000 (cars) goes down that road every day and residents in the area don’t have enough parking as it is,” he said.
Tilley said this would be detrimental to the area, which is a narrow, winding road surrounded by homes.
Coun. Sandy Hickman looked up the area on Google Maps. He said it showed a wedding at the manor and cars parked all over the streets around it.
Mayor Dennis O’Keefe said he agreed that the correct decision was to deny the application. “Waterford Bridge Road is a highly residential area with an awful lot of traffic, and whenever there is an event at the manor, the parking spills over on Waterford Lane and Waterford Place. And as Coun. (Danny) Breen indicated, to forgive 50 per cent of parking is an invitation to invite that amount of parking to collect on Waterford Lane or up in the residential area of Waterford Place or on the road where there is no parking, and council is well aware of the complaints of speeding in the area.”
Only Duff voted to allow the application.

http://www.thetelegram.com/Business/2013...Manor-loses-application-for-restaurant/1

[nando]

Downtown is going to need more... stuff!

http://nlpost.ca/downtown-is-going-to-need-more-stuff/

[PoscStudent]

^ Cool piece, I couldn't agree more.