Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Rico]

Originally Posted by nname

And also, the underground Broadway line will relief the most heavily utilized portion of Expo Line, which would provide extra capacity for growth and expansion.

This report shows that by 2041, peak Expo Line demand will be:

- Do nothing: 23,104 pphpd
- LRT: 22,165 pphpd
- RRT: 18,981 pphpd
- Combo: 20,007 pphpd

That extra 3200 pphpd capacity over LRT option would be more than enough to absorb the extra ridership for the potential Langley extension of Expo Line (Surrey RRT 1A option).

Thanks for the link and finding that little factoid, I always knew trip diversion off the busy Expo line would happen but I did not realize it would be as significant. Of course I always thought RRT on Broadway would also increase ridership more through the network effect...but I guess most of the new trips would be from the SouthEast and not on the highest pphpd section of the line. If those numbers are accurate that is a huge factor in any Broadway decisions. Note that the do nothing option starts taking you pretty close to the 25,000pphpd number where expensive upgrades to the Expo line would be required.

[cabotp]

Originally Posted by jhausner

Anyone with half a brain knows SkyTrain down Broadway to UBC is required. Don't need a KPMG study to tell us that.

Sadly though a lot of people don't seem to even have half a brain or any brain at all.

[Political_R]

Originally Posted by cabotp

Sadly though a lot of people don't seem to even have half a brain or any brain at all.

Or they do have a brain, it is just they remember tunneling=open up the street, dig out, build tunnel, bury tunnel. NIMBYs have a brain, they just want to have it their way instead of the highway.

[officedweller]

From the Courier:

12th & Cambie: UBC ‘technologically agnostic’ about subway

By Mike Howell, Staff writer
March 11, 2013

Got a call the other day from the University of B.C.’s public affairs department about a piece I wrote in this space about Mayor Gregor Robertson and UBC president Stephen Toope.

...

The caller from public affairs demanded I print a correction.

Over what?

Apparently, Toope has never stated support for a subway and UBC is actually “technologically agnostic” when it comes to a preferred method of moving people from Commercial Drive to the campus.

I was confused, to say the least.

The previous week, I showed up at a press conference where Toope joined Robertson to release a $100,000 KPMG study that said “rail rapid transit — a subway — all the way to UBC best meets the needs of today’s transit riders and tomorrow’s population and economic growth.”

Yes, a subway.

...

At the press conference, I asked the city’s director of transportation Jerry Dobrovolny to define “rail-based transit.” His answer: a subway. He told me this with a UBC senior staffer sitting two seats from him. She heard exactly what he said.

The mayor, as you’ve probably heard, has made it no secret that a $2.8 billion subway is the best and only option for the corridor. He said this a few times at the press conference, with Toope standing next to him on a riser.

...

So when I’m asking Toope about a subway and the $2.8 billion cost — and he answers the question — am I to believe that he doesn’t support a subway?

You can see why I’m scratching my head here, folks. What I took from the public affairs rep is that UBC doesn’t really care what type of system is built — as long as it’s built soon and it provides effective transportation for people.

So why didn’t Toope say that at the press conference where it was all about the subway and the cost?

The PR rep didn’t have an answer.

No sooner had I hung up the phone with said PR rep that I received another press release from the mayor’s office. The headline to the release: “New TransLink study strengthens the case for Broadway subway to UBC.”

...

Apparently, UBC won’t be saying the same.

Or will they?

Read more: http://www.vancourier.com/news/Killarney+pitches+call+action/7870838/story.html#ixzz2NIlcNIcR

[Meraki]

Originally Posted by officedweller

From the Courier:

Your link is broken.

http://www.vancourier.com/news/12th+Cambie+technologically+agnostic+about+subway/8081214/story.html

[officedweller]

Thanks

[GeeCee]

I'm technically agnostic with regards to the line as long as it is underground, connects to the existing network, uses the same vehicles, etc. Whatever they choose to use that fits that criteria works for me!

[makr3trkr]

just so that no one is under the impression that an elevated Skytrain is impossible on Broadway

Bangkok Skytrain (BTS):
busy, narrow 6 lane street? check
mix of commercial and residential? check
mix of medium and high density? check

And I'm sure it cost them a lot less than a subway.
They even managed to stick the stations over the road.
Amazing what a little ingenuity can do...

Obviously the NIMBY is so strong here it could never happen.

[Porfiry]

Originally Posted by makr3trkr

just so that no one is under the impression that an elevated Skytrain is impossible on Broadway

It's politically impossible.

[aberdeen5698]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

It's politically impossible.

Yes, and it's really too bad because an elevated Skytrain is so much more enjoyable to use than a subterranean one.

[Gordon]

An elevated line along Broadway would cause some of the same traffic issues that at-grade LRT would

[Vancity]

I prefer the subway option.

expensive. but city's gotta look long term, and stop looking at short term solutions. subway is best option, at moving as many people in a short period of time.

[makr3trkr]

Originally Posted by Gordon

An elevated line along Broadway would cause some of the same traffic issues that at-grade LRT would

Originally Posted by Vancity

I prefer the subway option.

expensive. but city's gotta look long term, and stop looking at short term solutions. subway is best option, at moving as many people in a short period of time.

Skytrain (not subway) is serving us well is 90% of the rest of the region - Burnaby, Richmond, Surrey, New West - and the majority of the rest of Vancouver. Seems like a good long-term option to me.

I realize the subway is the only politically feasible option, but elevated is cheaper, safer, easier to expand, easier to maintain, and proven technology (not to mention a lot more enjoyable to actually ride).

The Canada line definitely caused traffic issues on Cambie. If there were a train on Broadway a good chuck of the cars would disappear anyways. It's not like Broadway is exactly "free flowing" right now.

None of these issues are deal breakers except one - people don't want it in their backyard. Why else would they not even present the numbers for an elevated option?

[Zassk]

An elevated line in one of the alleys parallel to Broadway would be good to me. I can understand why elevated is not considered for the middle of Broadway, but I always wondered why we couldn't run an elevated line behind the buildings in the alley. This would work for a Hastings line as well.

(Note that Broadway is actually even narrower than the street in those Bangkok pictures, which feature a frontage/cyclist lane and wider sidewalks and median in addition to 6 lanes of traffic.)

[officedweller]

The alley would be too narrow without expropriating a strip off the back of each lot (some built to the property line) - remembering that the alley must remain functional, so columns need to be offset or use bents - see an earlier post:

Originally Posted by officedweller

... Even the "alley" RoW east of Commercial Drive as SkyTrain approaches Broadway Station occupies a wider RoW than just the width of an alley roadway.

Here's a GoogleMap of the segment. It should give a good idea of the parameters involved. They had to buy a strip of properties to the east. To run it down an east-west alley - you'l have to expropriate a sizable segment from behind properties on both sides of the alley (and the ones fronting Broadway would likely be immovable) - the alternative would be to take the whole RoW strip from the properties to the south, which may sterilize them - or at least force full-scale redevelopment into townhouses, etc.



Uploaded with ImageShack.us

[DKaz]

Seems there used to be houses were the linear park now sits.

[makr3trkr]

Originally Posted by Zassk

An elevated line in one of the alleys parallel to Broadway would be good to me. I can understand why elevated is not considered for the middle of Broadway, but I always wondered why we couldn't run an elevated line behind the buildings in the alley. This would work for a Hastings line as well.

(Note that Broadway is actually even narrower than the street in those Bangkok pictures, which feature a frontage/cyclist lane and wider sidewalks and median in addition to 6 lanes of traffic.)

I think it depends where you look. In many places, the sidewalks strike me as pretty beefy, definitely wider than the Bangkok photos:



If 150,000 people are taking the train, a lot of those are going to be diverted from driving. Broadway doesn't *need* to be six lanes. It would function fine with only five. It's not even a BC numbered route anymore. The space under the pillars could conceivably be utilized too.

[Rico]

Originally Posted by makr3trkr

I think it depends where you look. In many places, the sidewalks strike me as pretty beefy, definitely wider than the Bangkok photos:



If 150,000 people are taking the train, a lot of those are going to be diverted from driving. Broadway doesn't *need* to be six lanes. It would function fine with only five. It's not even a BC numbered route anymore. The space under the pillars could conceivably be utilized too.

That is what I would like in a subway plan as well, 2 lanes each direction but only one total lane for parking. With the extra space going to increasing the pedestrian realm and maybe things like bus bulges for the no. 9.

[queetz@home]

Originally Posted by Porfiry

It's politically impossible.

This is ultimately what peeves me about this whole Broadway Line project, and even the Canada Line before that. The only reason why its a *subway* is because when it comes to the Westside of Vancouver, it *MUST* be buried at all costs, even if that means other parts of the region will simply not have any improvements.

And its sad that instead of pushing for an elevated system that is more cost effective, people would blindly want a *subway* even if it means Surrey, who 1) pays a lot more than what it gets from Translink and 2) is satisfied with a simple "off the shelf" grade system LRT to save the rest of the region its costs, will still get nothing.

[Pinion]

Most of the suburban skytrains were built before the areas were built up. It's not at all comparable. Anyone using common sense should understand why underground is the only option for Broadway (note I have no personal investment in it either way).