Millennium Line - Broadway Extension: Planning & Pre-Construction

[Metro-One]

The tunneled LRT would only be 1.7 to 4.4 km long, so not much of the line.

[logan5]

I'm not really advocating it, but it looks as if LRT were built fully underground, the total cost would be 2.2 billion. Almost a billion less than RRT. Or maybe not. 1.1 billion plus 2.2 = 3.3 billion, so maybe more expensive than RRT. OK forget it.

[officedweller]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

They still have LRT at grade on the list, wish they would drop it.

It is either RRT the entire length or Combo 1, not extending the M-Line at least to Cambie would be an incredible mistake.

Agreed.

[jsbertram]

A glaring omission in the LRT options is where are the storage / maintenance yard(s) for the trains? This simple question is unanswered by both the Vancouver and Surrey reports, and may be the stake in the heart for Vancouver LRT.

At least with the SkyTrain options for Vancover and Surrey, the trains can keep using the Edmonds OMC for storage / maintenance.

If Surrey extends Skytrain down the Fraser Hwy, they might find some greyfield land that can be reused for another OMC. Its certainly easier and cheaper to find acres of unused land in Surrey rather than Vancouver.

[officedweller]

That's probably why there's the combo option - to tie into an LRT yard at False Creek Flats without decimating the GNW Campus lands.

[Jebby]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

A glaring omission in the LRT options is where are the storage / maintenance yard(s) for the trains? This simple question is unanswered by both the Vancouver and Surrey reports, and may be the stake in the heart for Vancouver LRT.

I would think it would be in the False Creek Flats railyards.

Originally Posted by jsbertram

At least with the SkyTrain options for Vancover and Surrey, the trains can keep using the Edmonds OMC for storage / maintenance.

Once SkyTrain is extended all the way to UBC I would imagine that Edmonds OMC wouldn't be able to fit all the extra trains. I wonder how big the storage yard for the Evergreen Line is. If not, I think Edmonds yard can be extended to the south, the old bridge and tracks are still there. The current building on that lot would have to be demolished, though.

[jsbertram]

Originally Posted by Metro-One

The tunneled LRT would only be 1.7 to 4.4 km long, so not much of the line.

And we should hope that if they spend extra billions on an LRT tunnel under the Broadway corridor, they will make the tunnels large enough to be retro-fitted to run SkyTrain cars. The LRT tunnels should be planned so they can be extended to the SkyTrain guideways when LRT reaches its capacity (2050 if the various reports are correct).

Otherwise I can see where this is going:

In a few years...
OH MY G*D !!
Skytrain Tunnels are too damm expensive!

we gotta build the cheapest LRT option on Broadway.
Dig up Broadway from Commercial to UBC for Surface LRT.


a few years later (likely before 2030) ....
DAMMMIT!
LRT is jamming up traffic on Broadway and all the major cross-streets

we have to dig up Broadway from Main St to Arbutus for LRT tunnels.
That'll be the solution.


a few years later (likely before 2050) ....
DAMMMIT!
LRT is getting jammed up in the tunnels, and we can't run any more trains on/under Broadway.

The smart guys say we have to dig up Broadway from Commercial to Arbutus and change the LRT tunnels to Skytrain tunnels.


a few years later (not sure if we're still around to see this though) ....
the creme de la creme west of Arbutus are still complaining about the BRT from Arbutus to UBC that has been running past them for decades. The idea of gondolas down 12th Ave and 10th Ave from Arbutus to UBC isn't acceptable to them either.

the only option left is to dig up Broadway and 10th Ave from Arbutus to UBC to extend SkyTrain.


.... or it could be done the right way from the beginning - TBM tunnel from VCC Station to UBC. Do it right the first time, and it doesn't have to be re-done every few decades at greater expense.

[Millennium2002]

^ lol. I hope that doesn't become true soon...

I'm curious as to how the budget for underground SkyTrain exploded from the 2.4 billion previously to the 3.3 billion now. Is that all because of inflation? =X

In addition, I assume the study does not give any specifics as to what corridor in the Broadway Corridor area to take yet?

In any case the case for SkyTrain down Broadway still looks strong if one considers other factors not listed in the summary...

[s211]

Originally Posted by allan_kuan

I'm curious as to how the budget for underground SkyTrain exploded from the 2.4 billion previously to the 3.3 billion now. Is that all because of inflation? =X

Yes, as per a UDI presentation yesterday, inflation has been baked in.

[xd_1771]

Originally Posted by Jebby

I would think it would be in the False Creek Flats railyards.

Once SkyTrain is extended all the way to UBC I would imagine that Edmonds OMC wouldn't be able to fit all the extra trains. I wonder how big the storage yard for the Evergreen Line is. If not, I think Edmonds yard can be extended to the south, the old bridge and tracks are still there. The current building on that lot would have to be demolished, though.

Could build another OMC on cheaper land South of Fraser if a SkyTrain extension is to come down here.... that may address that problem.

[officedweller]

The Evergreen storage yard should cover it - since trains could come into service directly from that end of the line rather than having to switch from line to line.

[cornholio]

Originally Posted by jsbertram

Oh, the First World HORRORS we have living here.

Coming from the north side of Broadway, you'll probably spend more time waiting for the pedestrian WALK light.

To be fair a minute can be the difference between someone using it or not. Plus the minutes add up, 1 min for this, 1 min waiting at the check out line at the grocer, 1 min waiting on the phone to cancel something, 1 min because of a slow elevator, etc. Next thing you now your wasting a significant percentage of your waking day (if you live in a third world / developing country you quickly notice this is always a big problem). Every minute counts, and every second counts, and if your attitude is "its just a minute" then it will probably be your attitude with all other things, and it all adds up at the end of the day.

[officedweller]

How would a long ramp from Broadway to 10th Ave compare to stations like these Seattle LRT stations?
I tend to think that a ramp down (like at the seabus) can handle larger loads than banks of escalators straight down.
Bored tunnels tend to be deeper than cut and cover, so if the UBC Line is bored, expect longer walks to the platforms.
(i.e. residents' demands against temporary disruption (no cut and cover) will forever inconvenience passengers by that minute each day)


http://www.ravennablog.com/uw-light-rail-station-show-and-tell-tour-photos/

[YVR Bruce]

Looking at those images of the SEA U and North Link stations, it starts to explain why their U link costs $384m/km (for "light" rail!). Essentially a city block (or two) tied up, and huge political battles over what development can be added.

What I don't understand is with such edifaces as Roosevelt stn, how that 4.3km bored project comes in at $202m/km when the UBC line with smaller bore etc shows at $233m/km (at $2.8b) or $275m/k at new $3.3b figure.

[nname]

The cost for North Link is 303M/km, not 202M...

There were a very detailed 406 pages report for the alternative evaluation that include a table with detailed cost breakdown for each component. But they never release the link to the public now they've taken it down from the document library. Sadly I'm away from my home computer so I didn't save it. The only thing I remember from the cost section is that they assume 15% spare for all technologies, and the "real" construction cost for the RRT option is about 2.2B, with inflation and contingency makes up the rest of the 3.1B budget.

[xd_1771]

There were a very detailed 406 pages report for the alternative evaluation that include a table with detailed cost breakdown for each component. But they never release the link to the public now they've taken it down from the document library. Sadly I'm away from my home computer so I didn't save it. The only thing I remember from the cost section is that they assume 15% spare for all technologies, and the "real" construction cost for the RRT option is about 2.2B, with inflation and contingency makes up the rest of the 3.1B budget.

I want to see this O_O
I don't think anything actually disappears from the documents library, but the links in particular seem to change often.

EDIT: I found it for the Surrey Rapid Transit Study O_O

[jsbertram]

A proposal to build a $2.8-billion subway along Vancouver’s Broadway corridor was met with both cheers and jeers at a packed town hall meeting in Kitsilano Sunday.

The City of Vancouver — bolstered by reports from accounting firm KPMG and TransLink — is pushing for a subway between Commercial/Broadway and the University of B.C. as the solution to the clogged corridor, touted as one of the continent’s fastest-growing life science and technology clusters

more:
http://www.theprovince.com/news/Vancouve...ion+Broadway+corridor/8076960/story.html


did anyone here manage to get to this presentation on Sunday?

[Alon]

Even though I live in that neighborhood, I didn't know about the town hall. My guess is that neither do other people whose social networks are sufficiently non-local that they don't read local papers. As it happens, lots (most?) of the UBC-bound commuters from Kits are in this category - postdocs, junior professors, grad students, and some undergrads. Those of us who haven't been in the neighborhood 20 years want affordable housing within easy commute distance of UBC more than preservation of the population density of 2013.

[MetroRailRoad]

After reading the recent news stories on the UBC transit line, I think that TransLink should build an underground extention of the Millenniun Line from VCC to UBC for two reasons. First, LRT does not have the capacity for 20 years down the line. Second, with full intergration of the Evergreen Line, one commute from UBC to Coquitlam without transfer.

[nname]

And also, the underground Broadway line will relief the most heavily utilized portion of Expo Line, which would provide extra capacity for growth and expansion.

This report shows that by 2041, peak Expo Line demand will be:

- Do nothing: 23,104 pphpd
- LRT: 22,165 pphpd
- RRT: 18,981 pphpd
- Combo: 20,007 pphpd

That extra 3200 pphpd capacity over LRT option would be more than enough to absorb the extra ridership for the potential Langley extension of Expo Line (Surrey RRT 1A option).