New casino?

[coalminecanary]

So now you are arguing FOR keeping it up at Flamborough? We're finally getting somewhere!

OK I'll happily double it. $2.66 a month. That's what risking the momentum downtown is worth to you? Not even two "timmies".

At least I wasn't off by a power of ten.

Meanwhile the 200,000,000 that has to be lost at the tables/slots in order to generate that $2.66 per month costs every citizen (not just every taxpayer) $33/mth.

[Beedok]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

So now you are arguing FOR keeping it up at Flamborough? We're finally getting somewhere!

OK I'll happily double it. $2.66 a month. That's what risking the momentum downtown is worth to you? Not even two "timmies".

At least I wasn't off by a power of ten.

Meanwhile the 200,000,000 that has to be lost at the tables/slots in order to generate that $2.66 per month costs every citizen (not just every taxpayer) $33/mth.

Surely a good chunk of that $33/mth average is already being spent, either at Flamborough or out of the city in Niagara Falls or Brantford right? So that really means that it's making the difference of whether or not the employees as the casino are getting paid here or in another city mostly. I suppose some of that 33 is being spent on other things in the city, but I'm guessing in 90% of cases it's competing with going out to a movie theater, eating at a fastfood place or some similar chain event. Only in extreme cases does the gambling money interfere with non-entertainment expenses, and how much are we losing if the money is spent at a casino compared to a cineplex?

(Note: I'm not for the casino, but I'm not really against it. I mean Port Arthur, which has Thunder Bay's casino, seems to have the healthier of the two downtowns in my experience, but then I realise that there's issues that accompany things, so I don't consider myself knowledgeable enough to sort through all the biases.)

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by Beedok

Surely a good chunk

Originally Posted by Beedok

I suppose some

I don't mean this personally, but these are perfect examples of the problem with this process. Hamilton is guessing at this data. Does the OLG know? Maybe. They aren't telling us though.

The OLG mandate is to create more Ontario gamblers. They want people who don't gamble now to start gambling.

How many more gamblers will they create in Hamilton if there's a casino close enough that you don't have to take a bus? We don't know. Does the OLG know?

We're left making a huge decision based on guesses and estimates.

The numbers that I discuss are mathematical facts based mainly on the OLGs stats and predictions.

Originally Posted by Beedok

So that really means that it's making the difference of whether or not the employees as the casino are getting paid here or in another city mostly.

The OLG decided to kill jobs when they closed SARP down. I'm not a fan of governments propping up failing industries, but we need to be honest about the numbers - the entire OLG plan will not create jobs. It will move some around. Will horse farmers just become card dealers? Not likely. The OLG created a job problem and now they are selling us their solution.

If Hamilton says no outright (costing us each $3 per month), then any employment and economic effects are squarely on the shoulders of the OLG. They created this mess, not us.

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by markbarbera

So, is the evil despot portrayed in your melodrama stroking a thick curly moustache while having this monologue, or are they stroking a white persian cat on their lap?

It's about money. If we make it easy for them to download costs and withhold funding, they are surely going to take us up on it. They are obviously squeezed thin.

They already downloaded social services to us, now they want to put a casino downtown which will increase these costs for us, while generating huge profits for them - and then they get to decide how much of that profit will trickle back to us.

I'm tired of being the fall guy, aren't you?

You may call this melodramatic.

I call it a dramatic problem for the economic stability of our city.

[thistleclub]

Even with gaming facilities planted on-site, racetracks across the province are on their last legs unless a new symbiotic relationship is arrived at or horseracing becomes insanely fashionable.

According to a June 2012 story in Standardbred Canada, "Ontario will provide up to $50 million over three years in transition support to the industry, and Employment Ontario will help displaced workers in the industry find jobs and training."

To put this bridge money in perspective, in 2011-12 the OLG paid out more than $160 million to the industry through OLG Slots facilities' purses, exclusive of host tracks (which saw an equivalent amount). The transitional fund will be about 10% of that on an annual basis (or 5%, factoring in payments to tracks). Barring further intervention or change of heart, the program will last for three years.

It remains to be seen whether these new facilities' operators will decide to sign on for anything remotely resembling SARP's 20% revenue share. Seems like a long shot.

[SteelTown]

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...-says-olg-boss

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

Like what?

You will have to look that up yourself. I have been here and been involved in this city for over thirty years. Almost every vacant lot in the downtown has had some sort of development proposal associated with it over the years. Some have been rejected by the city outright and others have been withdrawn by developers because of ridiculous changes demanded by city hall. I really don't care if you believe me or not.

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

You will have to look that up yourself.

So we'll just accept your hyperbole? I'd like to hear some examples from you about opportunities that we missed because engaged citizens pressured council to say no - especially those that then went to other communities. Because this is what you said has happened:

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

People propose things, the whiners complain it's rejected and ten years later after it has been a success elsewhere those same whiners say why didn't we do that here.

You can not equate the citizen engagement over a casino to the vacant lots in Hamilton. How many of these were the result of citizens pressuring council to say no to a developer?

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

Almost every vacant lot in the downtown has had some sort of development proposal associated with it over the years. Some have been rejected by the city outright and others have been withdrawn by developers because of ridiculous changes demanded by city hall.

May I suggest that many of these developments never happened because they were never really developments? Just like Blanchard is doing right now, the buildings were torn down by land speculators who hoped a developer would come along to buy the vacant land and make them rich. The fact that the lots are empty is a testament to the fact that the city did not "reject the plans outright". They allowed the demolition and then the development never materialized.

To equate this process with the citizens who are opposing a casino downtown is absurd.

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

http://www.thespec.com/news/local/ar...-says-olg-boss

OLG continues to flip flop like a dying fish

[SteelTown]

AH, no. Just council likes to create plenty of drama, I said this way back in Oct 1, 2012...

Originally Posted by SteelTown

I can't believe they are talking about where to put the casino. Forget about the location and just yea or nay a casino first. The RFP will determine the location. Jeeeeez.

Stadium debate 2.0.

http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/show...0&postcount=70

[realcity]

Coalmine is forgetting that playing cards, roulette, dice and slots gambling for a chance to win money is fun for people. It's entertainment, just like a theatre or restaurant you get something for your money. Just because it is not considered entertainment for the anti casino crowd doesn't mean other people -- and most do -- find enjoyment and entertainment in a casino and are responsible with it.

[realcity]

Can't wait for Merulla's motion to fail. Flamboro is not an option. Now that Council knows they can veto any of the RFPs they will vote YES to see the proposals. The proposals will be so awesome that in the end we will have an entertainment destination downtown.

[realcity]

this sucks we wouldn't want this downtown

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by realcity

Coalmine is forgetting that playing cards, roulette, dice and slots gambling for a chance to win money is fun for people. It's entertainment, just like a theatre or restaurant you get something for your money. Just because it is not considered entertainment for the anti casino crowd doesn't mean other people -- and most do -- find enjoyment and entertainment in a casino and are responsible with it.

I'm not forgetting any of that. I know it's entertainment. I'm just not foolish enough to overlook the financial cost of putting a casino downtown. I'm not against casinos. (I am however against the OLG's plan to generate more gamblers and pay american companies to run them - because it's unsustainable).

I'm also smart enough to understand the overwhelming evidence that casinos do not generate economic activity nor do they rejuvenate downtown areas.

I am capable of comprehending studies that show that casinos are only economically feasible in tourist areas.

Those PR sales pitch photos you posted sure are pretty. The first one, of a concert, is already our reality as we have several concert venues that already attract top notch acts.

The second and third just represent the expensive, showy decor which would ultimately be paid for by the gambling losses of our own citizens.

I'm not against casinos. I'm against the terrible plan for a casino in downtown Hamilton.

If you like skyscrapers and urban development (which is presumably why you all post here), then I don't understand how you can possibly be in favour of a casino for our core. Say goodbye to the real development dreams because the downtown's about to get a lot less attractive to new residents and businesses.

Why don't we put this thing where we can reap the limited benefits without actively causing harm to the economy of the city?

If flamborough is a non-starter, why haven't we at least investigated any other location in the city? There are less damaging places we could be putting this thing. East Mountain is the first place that comes to mind.

[coalminecanary]

Here's what a downtown casino reality would be...

Inside:

(source)

Outside:

(source)

[coalminecanary]

I'd rather see Hamilton build back it's bustling downtown.

A Casino will not create this:

(source)

Sure, let's investigate locations. But let's focus on ones that won't kill our downtown momentum. And let's create a special fund for the kickbacks and not let it meld into general revenues.

But let's also be honest about what this $3 per month per taxpayer is going to actually cost us.

[Beedok]

I think somewhere around Confederation Park and Wild Waterworks would be good. Nice and car accessible, yet not as transit accessible (so less issues for from low income gambling hopefully), and nice and along the lakeshore. Lots of empty space out there right?

[durandy]

Originally Posted by Beedok

I think somewhere around Confederation Park and Wild Waterworks would be good. Nice and car accessible, yet not as transit accessible (so less issues for from low income gambling hopefully), and nice and along the lakeshore. Lots of empty space out there right?

That's a good point - why are the Mercantis so interested in downtown anyway? Why wouldn't they be extra eager for the casino to go up by the Red Hill or near their hotel? Maybe they're concerned it will take business away from themselves. But in any case I think it's obvious that gamblers are drivers so why this urge to have it downtown?

I think confederation park would have been great - pan am stadium, casino, hotel - create a cheesy entertainment district where the patrons won't care so much about the steel mills next door. Thanks again Chad!

[SteelTown]

Let the bidders do the RFP process. Let them do all the math, planning, present renderings and determine the locations. Let's not waste anymore breath, resources, time and energy on this, we've already wasted enough on this. Look at what Ottawa did, they didn't waste staff resources to create a 500 page casino report, which is already being ignored.

In 2014 we can than have City staff review and determine what to do with the winning bid.

[coalminecanary]

The problem with that is that bidders will craft their proposals to maximize their own benefit, but the location has an effect on the entire city. It is entirely appropriate for council to be considering the location before the bid request goes out.