New casino?

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

"bigguy", I'm happy to debate this stuff, but the name-calling is wearing thin. I'm not whining. I'm presenting evidence that I've spent time researching because I actually care about Hamilton, and I believe that we need to look at all of the information available to us before making such a huge decision.

When you actually go out of your way to find some information that wasn't fed to you by PJ Mercanti, we can continue the discussion. It appears that you like going to casinos. There's nothing wrong with that. But wanting a casino in Hamilton because it's more convenient for you is a little bit selfish.

Do you think I'm against the casino for selfish reasons? Actually, I guess you could say that - if you consider "wanting to live in a world class city" selfish.

Definition of a whiner, a person who seeks obscure data to back up an irrational position, their position, all the while ignoring any data or facts that may show their position to be irrational and entirely self centred.

Hamilton will never be a world class city as long as we have councils willing to listen to small minorities who seem to be the only ones that our councillors listen to. If you want any proof of this all you need to do is look at the downtown and the mess we have there courtesy of the complainers. That's what the complainers have given this city. I have seen it over and over again for the last thirty years that I have been interested in this city. People propose things, the whiners complain it's rejected and ten years later after it has been a success elsewhere those same whiners say why didn't we do that here.

[durandy]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

Definition of a whiner, a person who seeks obscure data to back up an irrational position, their position, all the while ignoring any data or facts that may show their position to be irrational and entirely self centred.

Hamilton will never be a world class city as long as we have councils willing to listen to small minorities who seem to be the only ones that our councillors listen to. If you want any proof of this all you need to do is look at the downtown and the mess we have there courtesy of the complainers. That's what the complainers have given this city. I have seen it over and over again for the last thirty years that I have been interested in this city. People propose things, the whiners complain it's rejected and ten years later after it has been a success elsewhere those same whiners say why didn't we do that here.

that's funny because you recently called out RTH, presumably whiner central, for always being on the losing side of everything. Also, when I look at downtown I don't see us as being in a mess at all. That's exactly why a casino isn't needed - things are already going full steam ahead.

[movingtohamilton]

Originally Posted by durandy

that's funny because you recently called out rth, presumably whiner central, for always being on the losing side of everything. Also, when i look at downtown i don't see us as being in a mess at all. That's exactly why a casino isn't needed - things are already going full steam ahead.

+1

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

People propose things, the whiners complain it's rejected and ten years later after it has been a success elsewhere those same whiners say why didn't we do that here.

Like what?

[coalminecanary]

Anyways, back to the issue at hand.

Here's what's happening. The OLG is desperate for money since losing the cross border gambling income.

They are counting on us being scared, gullible and stupid. Make no mistake, this is all about income for them and not at all about city building.

It's just another in a long line of provincial screwjobs.

"Stupid Hamilton", they think to themselves, "we screwed them on amalgamation, we screwed them on downloading social programs, we screwed them on the pan am games, we screwed them on LRT. It should be pretty easy to screw them on a casino. We just have to tell them how nice it will be, and those idiots will believe us as usual!"

And what's the worst that can happen under their plan? The smartest of the bunch get fed up and move somewhere else, leaving an even higher density of stupidity behind, ripe for future screw jobs.

[thistleclub]

More jousting.

Subdue the OLG monster: horse racing hall of famer (Flamborough Review, Robert Burgess, Jan 24, 2013)

OLG plan will create new jobs (Flamborough Review, Larry Flynn, Feb 7, 2013)

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

Like what?

You didn't ask me, but I can think of the ICTS Rapid Transit proposal in the early 80's which was shot down by opposition - which not even 10 years later we learned it was horrible technology. Even though we are now in 2013 over half a million people with a bus-only transit system.

Other than that, big developments seem to go through regardless of opposition - Jackson Square, City Centre, new City Hall / demolition of old City Hall, demolition / widening of York Boulevard, one way street system, The LINC, the Red Hill Expressway, the Education Centre demolition....

Looking at the history, I would say we have embraced orthodox planning concepts that have already been disproven elsewhere, while rejecting progressive ideas that have proven merits elsewhere. We have not been forward thinking.

I don't believe in prohibition and don't think gambling should be illegal, but I see the casino as another example of old school urban renewal: 'Get people downtown' any way you can, like by building something big. That in contrast to the modern approach of making downtown livable, desirable, self-sufficient yet ultimately attractive to visitors by way of its overall success.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

^It's not about urban renewal, it's about putting the casino where it's most accessible to the populous, especially those most willing to gamble. I.e. downtown.

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by pEte fiSt iN Ur fAce

^It's not about urban renewal, it's about putting the casino where it's most accessible to the populous, especially those most willing to gamble. I.e. downtown.

You are right. It's not about urban renewal for the OLG, for the Mercantis, or for Hard Rock (or whoever else steps in to take the sweet gig of running the gambling). For them it's all about direct income.

But the supposed (not guaranteed by the way) "200 million dollar" investment is considered to be urban renewal by those who have been taken in by the sales pitches. Despite the fact that in every other (non tourist mecca) city in the world, casinos do not generate development and create a radius of stagnation around them.

[Dr Awesomesauce]

How many actual gambling meccas are there exactly? Off the top of my head:

* LV
* Macau
* Monaco (debateable)
* The Bahamas (also debateable)

I know this isn't a fact-based argument but my guess is most locales with casinos cannibalise themselves. That is to say, feed off the local population and not draw much in the way of tourism. And even if a given casino does attract lots of tourists, does that really make it better?

Actually, here's a fact: according to a recent report by the Toronto Board of Health (link at bottom), 90% of Casino Montreal's patrons are local. That's quite significant particularly when you consider that Montreal draws millions of tourists every year. Hamilton has virtually no tourism to speak of and that's not likely to change with a new casino.

Whether you like gambling or not, are you comfortable with the province (via OLG) pushing casinos into our urban centres with the intent of drawing the most vulnerable in? Sounds despicable to me.

http://www.google.ca/url?sa=t&rct=j&...ETOKcxTczMK9wg

[thistleclub]

A Toronto casino is opposed by RioCan, despite Paul Godfrey at OLG: Editorial
(Toronto Star, Editorial, Feb 11 2013)

Casino advocates hoping to bring a gambling mega-complex to central Toronto have suffered a one-two punch, with a right cross coming from a surprising source — big developers. Especially stinging was the rejection of a downtown casino by RioCan Investment Trust, chaired by none other than Paul Godfrey, Ontario’s foremost casino booster.

Ouch! But RioCan is right. Weaknesses in the pro-casino pitch are increasingly clear. And it’s up to responsible city councillors to respond with a well-deserved knockout blow.

RioCan, Canada’s largest real estate investment trust, was joined by Allied Properties and Diamond Corp. in opposing a gambling mega-complex proposed for the Metro Toronto Convention Centre. Executives from all three firms signed a letter to the city warning that local infrastructure would be severely stressed by what’s proposed.

The group correctly noted that a traffic nightmare could result on Toronto’s already congested streets. And it concluded that, on balance, the harm done by a downtown mega-casino would outweigh its potential benefits.

Ironically, the city’s public health staff reached the same conclusion in a report being considered by the Toronto Board of Health on Monday. An earlier analysis warned that a casino would increase problem gambling and cause social harm. The latest report looks at the impact of big-time gambling on “community health” — such issues as jobs and neighbourhoods.

It shows a mixed result. A huge downtown gambling complex would indeed create jobs, but probably not as many as casino advocates claim. The authors of the report note that the unemployment rate in Niagara Falls didn’t significantly change after a casino opened there, and the experience of other communities shows that only about half of casino workers actually live in the city where they work.

A casino’s impact on tourism was considered “mildly positive” while its role in aggravating crime was deemed neutral, although with a possibility that offences might increase.

The neighbourhood level is where a casino’s impact would most be felt and here the verdict is all bad. Traffic volumes would increase, snarling movement in the downtown. Air pollution would also rise, along with noise and risk of traffic accidents. Increases in drunk driving have also been linked to a casino’s presence.

Public health staff concluded that “a new casino is likely to have greater adverse health-related impacts than beneficial impacts.”

None of this comes as good news to Godfrey who, in addition to chairing the board at RioCan, heads the Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corp. He tried to downplay the significance of RioCan’s casino opposition, noting he had always encouraged people on either side of this issue to make their views known. Fair enough. But Godfrey’s failure to win support from the company whose board he chairs gives casino opponents a telling argument against him.

As these points mount up, casino foes are gradually dominating the closing rounds of this debate. That’s entirely as it should be: they have, by far, the strongest case.

[markbarbera]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

Anyways, back to the issue at hand.

Here's what's happening. The OLG is desperate for money since losing the cross border gambling income.

They are counting on us being scared, gullible and stupid. Make no mistake, this is all about income for them and not at all about city building.

It's just another in a long line of provincial screwjobs.

"Stupid Hamilton", they think to themselves, "we screwed them on amalgamation, we screwed them on downloading social programs, we screwed them on the pan am games, we screwed them on LRT. It should be pretty easy to screw them on a casino. We just have to tell them how nice it will be, and those idiots will believe us as usual!"

So, is the evil despot portrayed in your melodrama stroking a thick curly moustache while having this monologue, or are they stroking a white persian cat on their lap?

You are right, we will probably be screwed by OLG, who will say no thanks to any "Not downtown/Flamborough only" ultimatum and send our zone's casino (and its proceedings) out of Hamilton and over to Milton instead. Except it isn't OLG screwing us in this case, we are screwing ourselves - which is the usual case in Hamilton politics. And Milton is happy with being the beneficiary of our failed opportunities.

[SteelTown]

Which could lead an estimate 10% tax hike on property taxes across Hamilton to recover OLG money.

[oldcoote]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

Which could lead an estimate 10% tax hike on property taxes across Hamilton to recover OLG money.

estimated by who?

[SteelTown]

This year we're looking at 5.5% increase, which brings $45 million extra. So 1% increase means about $8 million.

So I should have said 1% increase annually to compensate for the OLG money, or 10% over 10 years.

[SteelTown]

From Emma...

"OLG says the city will actually have final say over the casino location when the RFP is finished. City could still say no #HamOnt"

So all this for nothing? Just say yes and wait until the RFP is over, jeez. This city sure love drama.

[SteelTown]

At least Brad Clark gets it

http://goo.gl/LBMPR

[SteelTown]

Article from PJ

http://goo.gl/1cfzr

[coalminecanary]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

This year we're looking at 5.5% increase, which brings $45 million extra. So 1% increase means about $8 million.

So I should have said 1% increase annually to compensate for the OLG money, or 10% over 10 years.

That is some interesting math. 1% a year for 10 years is still 1%.

We actually get 4.5 million from the OLG right now. So using your number, that's a 0.55% increase in taxes in order to cover lost revenues *IF* OLG says no to Flamborough and we lose everything.

Average taxes are $242/month.

So the .55% you are worried about losing will cost us each $1.33.

For comparison, the police budget costs us $44/mth. Social services cost us $35/mth.

Now let's give Mercanti the benefit of the doubt and accept that we would see 8-10 million annually if we went for the whole shebang. (Keep in mind, the OLG claculations only see our 4.5 million going up to 5.5-6)

Even saying 10 million, that's 1.22% of your tax bill or 2.95/month. That's like the network access fee on one celllphone. Most people pay 20 times that per month for cable.

8 Million sure sounds like a lot to give up. Until you do the math... We could save that much by enforcing a 1% budget decrease across our most expensive departments instead of risking future tax income from progressive developments by dropping a casino into the centre of what is supposed to be the economic driver of the city.

[SteelTown]

Double it, $4 million annually from property tax

http://www.hamilton.ca/NewsandPublic...boro-Downs.htm