New casino?

[SteelTown]

Hamilton has an extra month to decide whether or not it wants a casino, according to an email from Mayor Bob Bratina to city council.

“After updating the OLG on our council's progress and awaiting the upcoming staff report, I suggested an extension of a month to continue our work,” the email reads. “They were supportive and agreeable. I look forward to council's input.”

Hamilton has been debating a possible casino since last year. The Ontario Lottery and Gaming Commissions' lease to operate 801 slot machines at Flamboro Downs expires March 31.

The corporation had originally said it wanted the city to pass a motion by March 1 saying whether Hamilton still wants a gaming facility, and if so, where one could be located.

OLG spokesperson Tony Bitonti told CBC Hamilton the OLG has "always been flexible if a municipality needs more time."

"We want to make sure council and the mayor makes an informed decision based on facts," Bitonti said, adding that the OLG would now need a decision by mid to late March.

http://cbc.sh/ezG5Txb

[realcity]

I count at least 7 in favour. They aren't saying much because they don't want to get skinned alive on twitter and facebook from the fanatical protest-everything-group. Leave our Art Crawl and cafes alone.

[SteelTown]

This is what I believe will happen over the next few weeks.

City gets an extension

Council will pass a motion to have Flamborough the selected site for a casino. Council will ask if Province will bend the Greenbelt to allow a hotel and entertainment complex.

City waits if Province will allow a hotel and entertainment complex at Flamborough

If no, council will freak out and possibly lose all of the OLG money unless a downtown casino is approved.

[realcity]

^ Sounds like the stadium debacle all over again.

[matt602]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

This is what I believe will happen over the next few weeks.

City gets an extension

Council will pass a motion to have Flamborough the selected site for a casino. Council will ask if Province will bend the Greenbelt to allow a hotel and entertainment complex.

City waits if Province will allow a hotel and entertainment complex at Flamborough

If no, council will freak out and possibly lose all of the OLG money unless a downtown casino is approved.

I'm in agreement. Too many downtown businesses, hospitals and institutions have already voiced bold opposition to a casino downtown and all of the lower city councilors have spoken out against it. I think the one's who haven't taken a clear side yet are just killing time to see how things play out. It's pretty telling that not a single councilor has been as outspoken in favor of the downtown casino as those against it.

[SteelTown]

Wouldn't be surprised if the Province is willing to take the blame and say no to allowing a hotel and an entertainment complex at Flamborough, after all this is the government that created the Greenbelt legislation. It'll than force council to either lose all of the OLG money or approve a downtown casino location.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by SteelTown

This is what I believe will happen over the next few weeks.

City gets an extension

Council will pass a motion to have Flamborough the selected site for a casino. Council will ask if Province will bend the Greenbelt to allow a hotel and entertainment complex.

City waits if Province will allow a hotel and entertainment complex at Flamborough

If no, council will freak out and possibly lose all of the OLG money unless a downtown casino is approved.

If council does that, then we can probably kiss the casino goodbye. It, as far as I know is the most rural OLG casino in the province. I can't see any casino operator wanting to invest in something so far away from it's customers.

If these idiots at city hall and the whiners downtown cause us to lose the revenue generated by the casino then there should be a special tax levy for the downtown wards to make up for the lost revenue.

[movingtohamilton]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

... there should be a special tax levy for the downtown wards to make up for the lost revenue.

Like that would be legal. Any other ideas?

[thistleclub]

Merulla dropping downtown casino referendum motion
(Hamilton Spectator, Emma Reilly, Feb 8, 2013)

Councillor Sam Merulla wants to take the possibility of a downtown casino off the table once and for all.

Merulla says he'll introduce a new motion at Thursday's special casino meeting to name Flamboro Downs as the only possible location for a casino.

Merulla, one of council's most vocal opponents to a gaming facility in the core, says he's making the move based on comments Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation spokesperson Tony Bitont.

Bitonti told Spectator Columnist Andrew Dreschel Thursday that if council chooses Flamboro Downs, OLG will seek out casino operators who might be interested in developing the location.

“If Hamilton decides that it is at Flamboro, we will put that out,” Bitonti says.

Initially, the motion Merulla planned to table Thursday asked for a referendum -- something he now says is unnecessary.

"The motion said, we choose Flamboro. But if you want another location, we want a referendum," he said. "There's no need to have a referendum now. It's a slam dunk."

Merulla says be believes he has the full support from council based on their initial vote about the issue dating back to April 2012. At that time, council unanimously voted Flamboro as its preferred site, but left the door open to consider other proposals.

[SteelTown]

And what if there's no interested operator for Flamboro Downs? Must we throw everything in one basket?

[NorthEndRules]

If there is no casino downtown, OLG will not just shut down Flamborough. It would be cutting its nose in spite of its face. They need the cash generated by the customer in the area. What are their other options really? Downtown Burlington? McMaster had issues there didn't they?

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by NorthEndRules

If there is no casino downtown, OLG will not just shut down Flamborough. It would be cutting its nose in spite of its face. They need the cash generated by the customer in the area. What are their other options really? Downtown Burlington? McMaster had issues there didn't they?

The place is a dump. Bad service, a restaurant that closes at 11pm and full of penny machines. Most people I know won't go there, they go to Brantford or Niagara. Flamboro will close if the city says no to a downtown casino and this city will lose any revenue it now gets.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by movingtohamilton

Like that would be legal. Any other ideas?

The city does area rating. All they have to do is label the downtown a special needs area and levy a new tax. They do it for BIA's.

[coalminecanary]

Operators will bid for Flamborough because it makes money. The OLG will accept a bid because it needs money badly.

[bigguy1231]

Originally Posted by coalminecanary

Operators will bid for Flamborough because it makes money. The OLG will accept a bid because it needs money badly.

We will see, but I wouldn't count on it. If they do it won't be anywhere near what we would get downtown.

Once again the citizens of this city are going to lose because of the whiners in this city getting their way. Every time they open their mouths it ends up costing us taxpayers more in property taxes.

[thistleclub]

OLG Slots at Flamboro Downs
Unaudited Results, by Fiscal Year, from Q4 Performance Reports

Daily Avg Number of Patrons / Annual Number of Patrons

2008-2009: 3,699 / 1,350,191
2009-2010: 3,441 / 1,256,027
2010-2011: 3,416 / 1,246,800
2011-2012: 3,360 / 1,229,747

# of Slot Machines

2008-2009: 803
2009-2010: 804
2010-2011: 801
2011-2012: 800

Gaming Revenue (Millions)

2008-2009: $128.9 [$136.1 CAD 2012]
2009-2010: $121.0 [$124.8 CAD 2012]
2010-2011: $120.8 [$121.8 CAD 2012]
2011-2012: $121.6

Revenue to Track (Millions) / Revenue to Horse People (Millions)

2008-2009: $12.9 / $12.9
2009-2010: $12.1 / $12.1
2010-2011: $12.1 / $12.1
2011-2012: $12.4 / $12.4

Revenue to Municipality (Millions)

2008-2009: $4.7
2009-2010: $4.5
2010-2011: $4.4
2011-2012: $4.6

OLG Payroll (Millions) / # of OLG Employees

2008-2009: $11.1 / 236
2009-2010: $11.2 / 222
2010-2011: $11.0 / 223
2011-2012: $10.9 / 225

[movingtohamilton]

Originally Posted by bigguy1231

The city does area rating. All they have to do is label the downtown a special needs area and levy a new tax. They do it for BIA's.

If the city tried this because "the whiners" kept a casino out of downtown, I would organize a fund raising campaign and take the city to court.

How the city got away with this in the past is a head-scratcher, but I haven't lived here long enough to know the history.

[coalminecanary]

"bigguy", I'm happy to debate this stuff, but the name-calling is wearing thin. I'm not whining. I'm presenting evidence that I've spent time researching because I actually care about Hamilton, and I believe that we need to look at all of the information available to us before making such a huge decision.

When you actually go out of your way to find some information that wasn't fed to you by PJ Mercanti, we can continue the discussion. It appears that you like going to casinos. There's nothing wrong with that. But wanting a casino in Hamilton because it's more convenient for you is a little bit selfish.

Do you think I'm against the casino for selfish reasons? Actually, I guess you could say that - if you consider "wanting to live in a world class city" selfish.

[Jon Dalton]

Originally Posted by realcity

^ Sounds like the stadium debacle all over again.

How else could history repeat itself from the stadium debate?

Council approves with their back against the wall.

Millions of dollars and a great facility are promised.

It ends up being —.

Councillors regret voting for it.

[thistleclub]

Is Flamborough really a casino option?
(Hamilton Spectator, Howard Elliott, Feb 9 2013)

It had been our intention to take a firm position on a new casino today, but we can’t do that because there is critical information we do not yet have. When we have it, we will. That could be sometime next week, as we have an opportunity to meet with Ontario Lottery and Gaming Corporation senior staff early in the week. But there is another casino question to be addressed.

Unless something dramatic changes between now and decision day at the end of this month, Hamilton council will probably say no to a casino in the downtown area. Certainly, things could change, including new information from OLG or from a massive city staff report released this week. (See it here.) But in the absence of new information, or a significant change in public opinion, it looks like most councillors are leaning toward telling OLG that Hamilton welcomes a casino, but only at Flamboro Downs, where slot machines already operate.

Their reasons for saying no will vary, but certainly the amount of opposition to a downtown casino will be a key factor. That’s understandable. In the downtown area where opposition is strongest, councillors can credibly say they are opposed because that’s what they’re hearing from their constituents. Opposition gets less intense as you get further away from downtown, which is why there is some support for the casino from some Mountain and some suburban councillors. But city councillors are not simply mirrors of constituent opinion. They need to be that and more, which is why this isn’t a black-and-white question.

At this week’s general issues committee meeting, there was a clear sense of momentum and plenty of hints that Flamborough could be a viable alternative. But is it?

OLG has said that if council says Flamborough, it will accept that decision and call for development proposals. But OLG has also broadly hinted that rural locations are not what it is interested in, because it wants its facilities to be “where the people are,” which almost certainly means downtown or a heavily urban area.

Let’s face facts. Saying no to downtown means saying no to the Rockhammer proposal that would see hundreds of new hotel rooms, several restaurants, the Hard Rock international brand, live music venues and a casino come to downtown. That’s something like 1,200 jobs, about $8 million to $10 million in annual slot and tax revenue for city coffers, badly needed hotel space to attract more convention business, and a new downtown destination that could draw significant incremental foot traffic downtown, not to mention the $200 million in private investment.

Rockhammer principals have said they’ll look at opportunities in Flamborough, but it is widely, and we think correctly, held that this particular group won’t find a relatively isolated semi-rural setting appealing.

It’s also fair to note that the Mercanti family, the Rockhammer principals, has assured council they remain committed to other forms of investment in downtown, including the hotel they hinted at before being awarded management of the convention centre. But it will be a smaller development and will not pack the potential economic punch the Hard Rock complex could.

What if saying no to downtown and yes to Flamborough really means saying no to OLG expansion in Hamilton, with all the money, jobs and activity associated with it? Some people think that simply moving a casino expansion into Flamborough will save horse racing there, but most knowledgeable sources say it will take a provincial policy change to do that. Barring a provincial change of heart, racing at Flamboro Downs is not sustainable, and if there’s little or no racing there, how appealing is the site for a casino complex? What about the cost of delivering municipal services all the way to the race track? Will the province agree to a green space policy exception that would allow expansion at the site? And would the economic and job-creation benefits be close to a proposal such as the Rockhammer plan?

OLG has said it will give Hamilton another extension on the casino question. Councillor Judi Partridge wants a two-year extension on Flamboro racing and policy changes that will allow full development at the Flamboro site. But no one is talking options other than Flamborough, and it must be said that increases the chances OLG will simply change the gaming zone border and be welcomed by a place like Milton.

We’re not saying that should influence anyone’s position or council’s decision. But we should at least be aware of it, because it is a distinct possibility. One thing for sure: Whichever way council votes, it will make a lot of people happy and an almost equal number unhappy.