Salt Lake City: Official Development News Thread - Part 3

[LookUpSLC]

Originally Posted by Stenar

After living in Manhattan for several years, I can attest to this, most New Yorkers think there is no life outside NY. A lot of them think there's no life in Brooklyn or Queens, let alone outside the city.
.

I too lived in NYC for about 11 years and for Manhattanites there IS no place off the island. Even people that live in the suburbs or long island communities think everyone else lives in the sticks. (And trust me, Utah's civilization is much more advanced than most people living on Long Island or some cities in New Jersey.)

I too love SLC and Utah for what it is. All of my friends that have visitied have left impressed by the beauty of the area, the culture and arts community, the kindness of the people, and believe it or not--the food.

[Stenar]

Milwaukee has the Marcus Center, which houses their symphony, opera, Broadway tours and local theatre. It was built in 1969. It consists of 4 different halls with 2,305 seats, 496, 475, and 400 for a total of 3,676 seats.

There is also the South Milwaukee Performing Arts Center, which is similar to the Eccles Center in Park City, in that it is run by the school district and had 786 seats, built in 2004.

Originally Posted by scottharding

Thank you both Future Mayor and Stayinginformed for your replies.

FutureMayor: I've lived in Milwaukee, and I don't know if they have a major performing Arts center like the one proposed for Salt Lake. They definitely have a theatre like our Capitol (the Pabst) but I doubt they have as many seats at we do. Your observations make perfect sense to me about "city" size. The question then, I think, is how many of those major metro areas have the majority of their theater seats located in such a concentrated area as SLC does. The Capitol, the Rose Wagner, Abravenel, Pioneer, Kingsbury, Salt Lake Acting Co, etc. I'd be curious to know if they're more spread out or not.
Don't mistake me, I'm not arguing against the UPAC. But my friend's comments made me very curious.

[Wasatch_One]

Originally Posted by shakman

This East Coaster had many positive experiences when I took my Mountain West vacation from 2010 into 2011. Most of the time was spent in SLC.

That's great to hear Shak! If ever you have to relocate out west, you're the type we're looking for

[Wasatch_One]

Originally Posted by Stenar

My brother-in-law works for Utah County, he also told me that Adobe is bringing another 1,000 jobs very soon to Utah than were previously announced and they're going to have to start building more buildings right away.

I can validate this... this is the full buildout rendering. The existing building is the middle and they will be starting on the bottom one (to the south of current) in the spring.

[delts145]

That's great news about Adobe. I love hearing about the exciting growth and progress around my old neighborhood.

Regarding Utah's perception, and going along with growth like Adobes, at least here in California. Much of the perception here is that Utah is spectacularly beautiful. Salt Lake City is an "IT" city. The "IT" factor means that the Salt Lake area is usually on their radar. Salt Lake City is getting a lot of attention for a myriad of reasons, most of which are positive. Almost all people I run across, when they find out I'm from Utah and the Salt Lake City area, whether they are working class immigrants or business executives, can't pump me for information fast enough. Many questions evolve around what kind of job opportunities they might have along the Wasatch Front. The Wasatch Front is becoming quite well known for it's business growth.

Perhaps surprisingly to some, the Latino community in general is quite well informed about Salt Lake. Most So. Cal. Latinos have relatives and or friends along the Wasatch Front. For first generation immigrants, their personal experience with the LDS Church in their home countries, and the reports they receive back from friends and relatives in Utah are usually very positive.

[Old&New]

Originally Posted by Wasatch_One

I like that people perceive us as a bit strange because it helps weed out those not really willing to have an open mind and see a place for what it is...

Ha! Open mind?! That is exactly what's missing in Utah's State-level politics.

Don't defend their "peculiarity" (outdated views and practices), and their stubbornness. Things need to change. Archaic social policies are a "stumbling block" to development.

[John Martin]

[Just A Thought]

I love this new building, does anyone know if the plan is to demolish that fairly ugly 80s black box office building on 400 South (next to salt lake roasting co), that unfortunately blocks the view of this masterpiece from 400 south?

[delts145]

Me too, I love this building! The real blast of joy is to see who took the pics. John, you have been sorely missed by myself and many on this forum. The forum has no right to ask you to fork over your undivided time to us, but I hope you will be able to update projects as often as your talented skills will allow.

[(Eco)nomy_404]

Originally Posted by Future Mayor

I honestly wouldn't be surprised if that is the case, on a city vs city basis, and I'm sure that is one of the arguments that the opponents of the PAC are using. There is a set of numbers, that if taken out of context, can support any argument.

I fully expect that there are many more theater seats in SLC (189,899) vs all cities of comparable size. (numbers according to 2011 estimates)
Little Rock Arkansas - 195,315
Mobile Alabama - 194,914
Columbus Georgia - 194,107
Amarillo Texas - 193,675
Glendale California - 193,111
Huntington Beach CA - 192,888
Salt Lake City
Grand Rapid Michigan - 189,815
Tallahasee Florida - 182,965
Huntville Alabama - 182,956

The difference is, NONE of these cities of "comparable size" are the central city of a major metropolitan area. If we take just the Salt Lake City CMSA, which only included Ogden Clearfield (not Provo)it is at 1.78 millions the 28th largest MSA in 2011.

The above are as follows:
Little Rock - 886,992 (47)
Mobile - 599,294 (62)
Columbus Georgia - 466,089 (72)
Amarillo Texas - not in the top 125
Glendale California - not in the top 125
Huntington Beach CA - not in the top 125
Salt Lake City
Grand Rapid Michigan - 1.33 million (35)
Tallahasee Florida - not in the top 125
Huntville Alabama - 579,550 (63)

So next time you talk to this person tell them that they may very well be correct, but that he/she should really look at the number of theater seats in the total metropolitan area. The metro area that is focused around that city as its core, as SLC is to the entire Wasatch Front.


The MSA's immediately above and below SLC are:
Austin-Round Rock 1.83
Raliegh-Durham 1.8
SLC-Ogden 1.78
Milwaukee-Racine 1.76
Nashville-Davidson 1.7

I would venture to guess that all those cities have a 2,500 seat PAC, and more overall seats than Salt Lake City.

I struggle to understand why the Census Bureau still considers Provo-Orem separately from the Salt Lake City CSA yet includes Ogden-Clearfield. According to Google Maps, Ogden is located 38.7 miles North of Salt Lake City (about a 40 min drive by auto, 51 min by train) vs Provo at 45.5 miles South (50 min by auto, 58 min by train). So, really, we're looking at a difference of 6.8 miles (or 10 min driving, 7 min on Frontrunner). When you look at the transportation corridors that connect these metros to SLC, they are exact mirror images of each other. At the southern end of the Salt Lake Valley, there are 16 lanes of auto traffic connecting SLC to Provo-Orem (8 lanes on I-15, 4 lanes on Redwood Rd, and 4 lanes on the Mtn View Corridor.) Compare this with the northern point of the Salt Lake Valley where there are also 16 lanes of auto traffic connecting SLC to Ogden-Clearfield (6 lanes on I-15, 6 lanes on Hwy 89, and 4 lanes on Legacy Prkwy. Both have commuter rail connections via Frontrunner. Provo-Orem had an MSA population estimate of 526,810 in 2010 compared with Ogden-Clearfield's estimate of 547,184 for the same year.

Are they honestly considering Ogden as part of the SLC CSA simply because its MSA has 20.3k more residents and is located 6.8 miles closer to SLC than Provo? I remember reading somewhere that they consider how dependent a population is on another to determine MSA, CSA, and other such statistical areas in regards to labor/consumer markets and transportation patterns. Clearly, both Ogden and Provo are equally dependent on SLC with identical commuting patterns by both auto and public transit. Whether I drive north or south, I see no visible difference between the two MSA`s and can not fathom why the Census Bureau does not include Provo-Orem in the SLC CSA to make the CSA population 2,271,696 (which would not include Logan`s MSA population of 125,442).

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by (Eco)nomy_404

I struggle to understand why the Census Bureau still considers Provo-Orem separately from the Salt Lake City CSA yet includes Ogden-Clearfield. According to Google Maps, Ogden is located 38.7 miles North of Salt Lake City (about a 40 min drive by auto, 51 min by train) vs Provo at 45.5 miles South (50 min by auto, 58 min by train). So, really, we're looking at a difference of 6.8 miles (or 10 min driving, 7 min on Frontrunner). When you look at the transportation corridors that connect these metros to SLC, they are exact mirror images of each other. At the southern end of the Salt Lake Valley, there are 16 lanes of auto traffic connecting SLC to Provo-Orem (8 lanes on I-15, 4 lanes on Redwood Rd, and 4 lanes on the Mtn View Corridor.) Compare this with the northern point of the Salt Lake Valley where there are also 16 lanes of auto traffic connecting SLC to Ogden-Clearfield (6 lanes on I-15, 6 lanes on Hwy 89, and 4 lanes on Legacy Prkwy. Both have commuter rail connections via Frontrunner. Provo-Orem had an MSA population estimate of 526,810 in 2010 compared with Ogden-Clearfield's estimate of 547,184 for the same year.

Are they honestly considering Ogden as part of the SLC CSA simply because its MSA has 20.3k more residents and is located 6.8 miles closer to SLC than Provo? I remember reading somewhere that they consider how dependent a population is on another to determine MSA, CSA, and other such statistical areas in regards to labor/consumer markets and transportation patterns. Clearly, both Ogden and Provo are equally dependent on SLC with identical commuting patterns by both auto and public transit. Whether I drive north or south, I see no visible difference between the two MSA`s and can not fathom why the Census Bureau does not include Provo-Orem in the SLC CSA to make the CSA population 2,271,696 (which would not include Logan`s MSA population of 125,442).

I don't understand the CSA aspect neither. Makes little since to me especially with the points you made.

In regards to MSAs, from what I've heard I believe you have to have continual connected development with a certain amount of people/square mile. The areas between point of the mountain, and Salt lake/North Salt have enough disconnected area to prevent a combination of MSAs I believe.

[StevenF]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

I don't understand the CSA aspect neither. Makes little since to me especially with the points you made.

In regards to MSAs, from what I've heard I believe you have to have continual connected development with a certain amount of people/square mile. The areas between point of the mountain, and Salt lake/North Salt have enough disconnected area to prevent a combination of MSAs I believe.

I don't think disconnection has that much to do with it. Summit and Tooele counties are both part of the Salt Lake MSA. They are also very much disconnected much more than Davis and Utah counties. The biggest difference is, Summit and Tooele counties both don't really have much in the way of jobs to keep most of the residents there to not travel into Salt Lake for work. Were as Utah, Davis and Weber Counties have plenty of jobs that keep people working in the area and don't really require people to travel as far if they don't want too.

But I do believe Utah County should be included into the Salt Lake CSA. There really isn't much left between Draper/Bluffdale and Lehi. If it wasn't for Camp Williams down at the Point of the Mountain and the gravel pits, I am sure the connection would be more complete than it is. There should also be enough traffic moving from Utah County into Sal Lake for it to add its population to it. Though I don't see Utah or Davis/Weber MSA's being added into the Salt Lake MSA.

[asies1981]

Originally Posted by DMTower

I think you nailed it on the head Scottharding. Peoples negative impressions of Utah are unfortunately correct much of the time. What they don't see on the surface though, is that there is a balance of equally progressive people in Utah as well. Things are changing slowly, with companies like Adobe and Goldman's locating here. Hopefully the momentum will continue to pick up and people's perceptions of Utah will change.

That is my main point that Utah is more progressive and more moderate than our leaders and public figures make Utah out to be. Most active Mormons I know think the "Zion curtain" is unnecessary and generally disagree with most of what comes out of the State Capital.

[asies1981]

Originally Posted by TonyAnderson

I don't understand the CSA aspect neither. Makes little since to me especially with the points you made.

In regards to MSAs, from what I've heard I believe you have to have continual connected development with a certain amount of people/square mile. The areas between point of the mountain, and Salt lake/North Salt have enough disconnected area to prevent a combination of MSAs I believe.

I grew up in Bountiful and everyone there works in Salt Lake not Ogden, south Davis County is very much part of the Salt Lake Metro and should be counted as such instead of part of Ogden. It took 10 minutes to get to downtown SLC from my house, and it takes 40 to get to Ogden. South Davis county would add a good 100,000 people to the SLC MSA

[Comrade]

It's not arbitrary boundaries. There's a reason behind the development of each CSA and it's directly tied to commuting patterns. For whatever reason, the statistics suggest that there isn't a high enough volume of Utah & Juab County residents commuting into the metro.

They can't just add certain areas because it makes more geographical sense or they'd have to go in and radically adjust their formula and apply it to every other CSA & MSA - which would increase/decrease population size based on those changes. So, it's not as simple as saying that adding Utah County makes sense and therefore the population should be this number and that would put Salt Lake at a higher CSA - because then those parameters would then need to be changed for every other CSA, as well.

I know it doesn't make sense - but that's just how the Census looks at it and it applies for every CSA and MSA - not just here in Utah.

[TonyAnderson]

Originally Posted by StevenF

I don't think disconnection has that much to do with it. Summit and Tooele counties are both part of the Salt Lake MSA. They are also very much disconnected much more than Davis and Utah counties. The biggest difference is, Summit and Tooele counties both don't really have much in the way of jobs to keep most of the residents there to not travel into Salt Lake for work. Were as Utah, Davis and Weber Counties have plenty of jobs that keep people working in the area and don't really require people to travel as far if they don't want too.

But I do believe Utah County should be included into the Salt Lake CSA. There really isn't much left between Draper/Bluffdale and Lehi. If it wasn't for Camp Williams down at the Point of the Mountain and the gravel pits, I am sure the connection would be more complete than it is. There should also be enough traffic moving from Utah County into Sal Lake for it to add its population to it. Though I don't see Utah or Davis/Weber MSA's being added into the Salt Lake MSA.

Sorry, I didn't mean MSAs, I mean't 'Urban Areas' which is also a classifcation. MSAs are by county and along the lines of what Comrade said.

There's a recent thread about Urban Areas here - http://forum.skyscraperpage.com/showthread.php?t=202856

Wasatch Front should be top 20 but I believe the small geographical disconnect prohibits that.

[Wasatch_One]

Originally Posted by (Eco)nomy_404

I struggle to understand why the Census Bureau still considers Provo-Orem separately from the Salt Lake City CSA yet includes Ogden-Clearfield. According to Google Maps, Ogden is located 38.7 miles North of Salt Lake City (about a 40 min drive by auto, 51 min by train) vs Provo at 45.5 miles South (50 min by auto, 58 min by train). So, really, we're looking at a difference of 6.8 miles (or 10 min driving, 7 min on Frontrunner). When you look at the transportation corridors that connect these metros to SLC, they are exact mirror images of each other. At the southern end of the Salt Lake Valley, there are 16 lanes of auto traffic connecting SLC to Provo-Orem (8 lanes on I-15, 4 lanes on Redwood Rd, and 4 lanes on the Mtn View Corridor.) Compare this with the northern point of the Salt Lake Valley where there are also 16 lanes of auto traffic connecting SLC to Ogden-Clearfield (6 lanes on I-15, 6 lanes on Hwy 89, and 4 lanes on Legacy Prkwy. Both have commuter rail connections via Frontrunner. Provo-Orem had an MSA population estimate of 526,810 in 2010 compared with Ogden-Clearfield's estimate of 547,184 for the same year.

Are they honestly considering Ogden as part of the SLC CSA simply because its MSA has 20.3k more residents and is located 6.8 miles closer to SLC than Provo? I remember reading somewhere that they consider how dependent a population is on another to determine MSA, CSA, and other such statistical areas in regards to labor/consumer markets and transportation patterns. Clearly, both Ogden and Provo are equally dependent on SLC with identical commuting patterns by both auto and public transit. Whether I drive north or south, I see no visible difference between the two MSA`s and can not fathom why the Census Bureau does not include Provo-Orem in the SLC CSA to make the CSA population 2,271,696 (which would not include Logan`s MSA population of 125,442).

I remember reading the requirements for an MSA to be included within a CSA after the 2000 census. I'm just going off of memory here but it basically had a threshold of commuters traveling in and out of of each others metro for either work, entertainment or shopping. Someone brought up the Tooele example and they are totally dependent on SL County. I would bet that up to 50% of the population travel into SL County for work. It's probably similar to that for the southern portion of Davis County as well as the northern portion of Davis traveling into Weber. It makes sense that they are part of the SL CSA.

I think until about the mid-late 90's, Utah County centered heavily around Orem/Provo, however, with Thanksgiving Point exploding recently becoming an employment center and now shopping center with the new Outlets as well as the Meadows in AF, we will see that cross over begin. I also know a fair amount of people that live in Lehi, Highland, Saratoga that rarely go south anymore and instead go up to 123rd or 106th to shop and/or eat. There are also a lot of people that live in SL County that now travel south into UT County and that will continue to expand as Thanksgiving Pt has established itself as the tech. center along the Wasatch Front especially with this announcement from Micron stating that there will be an additional 25K office/tech jobs at full buildout of their 850 acre development. http://www.heraldextra.com/news/local/no...dc575a1-eb31-55ac-b3aa-492e75928a6d.html

I was expecting Provo/Orem to be included as part of the SLC CSA in 2010, but I guess we will have to wait another 8 years. I think FrontRunner will help this as well and the TRAX extension around the Point from Draper to Thxgvng Pt.

[Comrade]

I think it's also important to point out how young the communities of Provo and Orem are - as they're some of the youngest in the nation (I think Provo is the 2nd youngest city in America). That certainly helps explain why they're not as reliant on Salt Lake because many of the area's population either does not work, as they're too young, or full-time students, or work close to where they live & go to school.

[LookUpSLC]

Originally Posted by Wasatch_One

I was expecting Provo/Orem to be included as part of the SLC CSA in 2010, but I guess we will have to wait another 8 years. I think FrontRunner will help this as well and the TRAX extension around the Point from Draper to Thxgvng Pt.

Does anyone have access, or has it been posted, the full-blown TRAX master plan? I didn't realize they expected to extend it into Thanksgiving Point.

[UTPlanner]

The former Barnes Bank Building which is the old building just north of the Public Safety Building which is under construction is owned by the city. Once the Public Safety Building is completed the city is going to market the property for development. They're interested in a mixed use project with an emphasis on multi-family residential.

Here is a link to the Regional Transportation Plan, click on the transit section at the bottom to learn more about future plans for transit in the valley: http://wfrc.org/cms/index.php?option=com_content&view=article&id=134&Itemid=78