HomeDiagramsDatabaseMapsForum About
     

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > St. John's


Reply

 
Thread Tools Display Modes
     
     
  #6101  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 4:43 AM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 36,350
It's unclear but the belief among those opposing the fence is that restricted access means it is permanently, completely, without exception off-limits to the public. Otherwise, why would the limited public access sections be identified differently?
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6102  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 6:02 AM
PoscStudent's Avatar
PoscStudent PoscStudent is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,817
The Port Authority will allow public access to certain areas at times.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6103  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 11:59 AM
Copes's Avatar
Copes Copes is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,086
I know of a somewhat exciting announcement that will be coming out in the new year... sometime in February I'd guess. No twenty story skyscraper or anything of the sort, but I'm certainly excited about it.

I've noticed that as well by the way. Many of the other forums seem to despise talking to one another. Happy we have such a calm and cool group here. We actually discuss, we don't insult and argue. So thanks to all of you for making this enjoyable.

As for the fence, I think I've voiced my thoughts. I'd like to see a well written Editorial in the Telegram. Quite frankly, a few who have posted their thoughts here could get away with just submitting their posts. A few very well written arguments.

As an aside, I ran into Andy Wells the other night and was chatting with him about the fence. I think its safe to say he'd agree with most of us on here about some political positioning occurring in council.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6104  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 12:33 PM
christopher_chafe christopher_chafe is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 404
Not sure just how this will go over once again, but there is a very strong possibility (depending on what the election turns out) that next year a certain hated corporation will once again be bringing back a proposal for a massive re-development dt. Now I wanna stress that this is ONLY A RUMOR at this point and was passed along to me by a worker at this corportation.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6105  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 12:36 PM
jeddy1989's Avatar
jeddy1989 jeddy1989 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher_chafe View Post
Not sure just how this will go over once again, but there is a very strong possibility (depending on what the election turns out) that next year a certain hated corporation will once again be bringing back a proposal for a massive re-development dt. Now I wanna stress that this is ONLY A RUMOR at this point and was passed along to me by a worker at this corportation.
are we talking a tall development? and in the east end?
possibly one that looked like a 15 story glass box next to a 11 story glass box that stands on now abandond buildings?? (and the travel bug hehehe)
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6106  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 12:39 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 36,350
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher_chafe View Post
Not sure just how this will go over once again, but there is a very strong possibility (depending on what the election turns out) that next year a certain hated corporation will once again be bringing back a proposal for a massive re-development dt. Now I wanna stress that this is ONLY A RUMOR at this point and was passed along to me by a worker at this corportation.
The "hated" is what throws me off. I can't think of one that's universally despised.

And, my usual response: they can build it in the Downtown West End.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6107  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 12:43 PM
jeddy1989's Avatar
jeddy1989 jeddy1989 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newfoundlander View Post
The "hated" is what throws me off. I can't think of one that's universally despised.

And, my usual response: they can build it in the Downtown West End.
I'm thinking fortis because they were "hated" .."dispised" when they put out their first proposal and then they just boarded up the buildings they wanted to replace and they remain just deteriorating ... but that would be A LOT for Fortis in Dt in recent years .. they may become our Irving haha if they keep it up

They've learned a lot since (graced us with Fortis place)
So I'm sure if it is them and it is true then it'll be vastly different than this:



Oh Signal you wernt around for those CRAZY times! .. it was what got me to join SSP and caused the creation of Happy City and the smooth approval of 351
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6108  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 12:49 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 36,350
Well, it was an awful proposal - suitable, at best, for a reclad of the Cabot Place Complex. And completely inappropriate for that area of the city.

But it's also not another Atlantic Place in that it probably won't do permanent damage to our city's appearance and lifestyle.

I'd still be completely opposed to it, though. A building like that would be better for the Downtown West End or anywhere over the crest of the first hill.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6109  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 12:51 PM
jeddy1989's Avatar
jeddy1989 jeddy1989 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newfoundlander View Post
Well, it was an awful proposal - suitable, at best, for a reclad of the Cabot Place Complex. And completely inappropriate for that area of the city.

But it's also not another Atlantic Place in that it probably won't do permanent damage to our city's appearance and lifestyle.

I'd still be completely opposed to it, though. A building like that would be better for the Downtown West End or anywhere over the crest of the first hill.
oh we know lol.. FEIRCE debates at the time

I think actually this may have been the start of miss O'Leary too... either way it changed the way we develop and probably the magnitude of it's affect on things is only rivaled by the Atlantic Place development

Edit: I was all for it at the time (west end DT was not on ANYONES radar) and it was the only large development in like 25 years! so it was something to get excited over.. now looking at it I'm kinda glad that development happened the way it did (and didn't go through.. it's not attractive now to me at all).. it did give way to highrise developments and much better quality buildings and more clarity on urbanizm in DT
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6110  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 12:55 PM
christopher_chafe christopher_chafe is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newfoundlander View Post
The "hated" is what throws me off. I can't think of one that's universally despised.

And, my usual response: they can build it in the Downtown West End.


You were not here to hear Greg Malone "sing" St. John's waltz at the public meeting....i mean public hanging of Fortis.

It was the public's paranoia with this modern monstrosity that ultimately made me despise the entire NIMBY clique of Ward 2.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6111  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 12:58 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 36,350
Yes, I agree. And if anyone from Fortis reads this thread... so help me God, you resurrect that proposal and I will... I will... complain about it here, ha!

Look at how much easier it was to get Fortis Place approved. Look at how warmly that building has been received. Look at how objectively beautiful it is. It's going to be one of the finest buildings in Atlantic Canada. One commenter from Toronto even said he usually didn't check out information about midrise buildings because they're typically boring (like the old proposal above), but he's glad he did check out Fortis Place.

That's what St. John's wants and deserves and that's what Fortis as a company should be about. Don't be the company that owns a hated eyesore downtown. Be one that breaks the modern=ugly development history of St. John's, be one that offers Class A office space for real.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6112  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 1:05 PM
jeddy1989's Avatar
jeddy1989 jeddy1989 is offline
 
Join Date: Dec 2009
Posts: 2,711
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newfoundlander View Post
Yes, I agree. And if anyone from Fortis reads this thread... so help me God, you resurrect that proposal and I will... I will... complain about it here, ha!

Look at how much easier it was to get Fortis Place approved. Look at how warmly that building has been received. Look at how objectively beautiful it is. It's going to be one of the finest buildings in Atlantic Canada. One commenter from Toronto even said he usually didn't check out information about midrise buildings they're typically boring (like the old proposal above), but he's glad he did check out Fortis Place.

That's what St. John's wants and deserves and that's what Fortis as a company should be about. Don't be the company that owns a hated eyesore downtown. Be one that breaks the modern=ugly development history of St. John's, be one that offers Class A office space for real.
I'd say if they come back with something it wont be anything like the previous one .. they own quite a bit of property there and it's on harbour drive too, I'd say they'd make waterstreet look like old buildings then reclad of the current building tith some sort of development of a fortis place quality highrise on the harbour drive side .. I dunno
and it might be a very creative redevelopment, who knows
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6113  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 1:11 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 36,350
I'm open to that, if they preserve the existing Water Street fascades. Those are some of our most beautiful stone buildings.

And they can repaint the existing fascades to suit whatever it is their tower would look like.

I'm unsure about adding another tower in that area... it makes it easier to justify redeveloping heritage areas between the old Fortis Building and the Sheraton. And I don't want that.

But we'll see what it looks like. Anything would be better than the existing Fortis Building and, honestly... it does look a little weird to just have two midrises there. A third might balance it out a little. We'll see.

I'm willing to compromise if I get more of what I like as well. For example, the street-level interaction with Harbour Drive must be a hell of a lot better than one expansive parking garage entrance like it is now. I want to breathe some life into Harbour Drive.

It'd help prevent — like this fence fiasco from even being proposed in its current form.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6114  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 1:12 PM
christopher_chafe christopher_chafe is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newfoundlander View Post
Yes, I agree. And if anyone from Fortis reads this thread... so help me God, you resurrect that proposal and I will... I will... complain about it here, ha!

Look at how much easier it was to get Fortis Place approved. Look at how warmly that building has been received. Look at how objectively beautiful it is. It's going to be one of the finest buildings in Atlantic Canada. One commenter from Toronto even said he usually didn't check out information about midrise buildings because they're typically boring (like the old proposal above), but he's glad he did check out Fortis Place.

That's what St. John's wants and deserves and that's what Fortis as a company should be about. Don't be the company that owns a hated eyesore downtown. Be one that breaks the modern=ugly development history of St. John's, be one that offers Class A office space for real.

Newfoundlander while you might not agree with this comment it is a sentiment felt by a vast majority of residents. The reason why there was no issue with Fortis Place is due to the fact that it was erected in a section of DT that has lower income residents and does not contain anyone of "importance".

I agree 100% with not liking the design it could have been much better. I just hope that "IF" it comes back it is a much better design and this time the NDP stay out of it and view it as an improvement for the entire city.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6115  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 1:19 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 36,350
Quote:
Originally Posted by christopher_chafe View Post
Newfoundlander while you might not agree with this comment it is a sentiment felt by a vast majority of residents. The reason why there was no issue with Fortis Place is due to the fact that it was erected in a section of DT that has lower income residents and does not contain anyone of "importance".

I agree 100% with not liking the design it could have been much better. I just hope that "IF" it comes back it is a much better design and this time the NDP stay out of it and view it as an improvement for the entire city.
I agree that's why the redevelopment of the Downtown West End started. It's undeniable. We even literally razed a third-world-style slum to the ground to get started. The open objective was to redevelop the lower income areas and build a better city for more respectable folk.

But I don't think that's why it continues. I don't think anyone is purposely trying to screw over residents of Hamilton Avenue by erecting Fortis Place, or drive them to move elsewhere now that their view will be compromised.

I think it just continues now because it's the easiest place to develop - the most open spaces, the least valuable heritage, etc.

And, whatever reasons for the better heritage protection in the Downtown East End, I'm grateful for it. I'd hate to be completely unable to take a picture that is, from top to bottom, old St. John's without being interrupted by an obviously modern building.

I never want to lose this:


Old St. John's by Signal Hill Hiker Photography, on Flickr
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6116  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 1:22 PM
Copes's Avatar
Copes Copes is offline
 
Join Date: Nov 2010
Posts: 1,086
If anyone has a copy of the Telegram handy, read the Letter to the Editor today. "Don't Fence Citizens Out".

I couldn't help but face palm. Do people really think that terrorist attacks are the "security" issues that the PA is talking about?

Man this city irritates me sometimes.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6117  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 1:31 PM
SignalHillHiker's Avatar
SignalHillHiker SignalHillHiker is online now
 
Join Date: Jul 2012
Posts: 36,350
Here you go, Copes:

Don't fence citizens out

Access to the harbour is only one of the issues at stake in the harbour fence debate. We need to examine the undemocratic nature of the decision to fund the fence and government officials using the Sept. 11th attacks as carte blanche for regulations and spending.

The harbour fence has far-reaching consequences to the public. It is a serious problem and there is no easy mechanism to disseminate information to the public about city council resolutions and decisions.

If the public doesn’t know about a decision, how are they supposed to have their voices heard? Isn’t democracy supposed to be “for the people, by the people”?

The fence will close 60 per cent of the harbour from public access.

St. John’s harbour is not very big. We do not have the luxury, like Halifax, of being able to cordon off large swaths of the harbour without affecting the public. People use all parts of the harbour that are currently accessible. There are always people walking down Harbour Drive. Children love looking at the boats. People like being near the water, as it’s a part of our culture and identity which is often lost while in a dense urban environment.

The CEO of the St. John’s Port Authority, Sean Hanrahan, says, “that the authority must either abide by security standards or shut down the port of St. John’s.” But why? In no statement or interview does Mr. Hanrahan quote which regulations the port authority is currently violating, nor does he justify how the fence will meet those standards.

Sept. 11, 2001 was 11 years ago. If this was an actual issue, wouldn’t the port security have been updated then?

The proposed fence is apparently a “heritage fence.” Terrorists, illegal immigrants or whatever other kind of criminal will not be deterred by a heritage fence. They are not deterred by airport security or border security and consequently any kind of fence will do little to stop them.

I think it is safe to say St. John’s is not and has not made itself a target for any terrorist organizations.

If major public threats like the events of 9/11 are the sole rationale for heightened security along the harbourfront, then this is an extremist post-rationalization of the very need of the fence to begin with.

Moreover, it comes at the detriment of the urban fabric and intimate connection with the sea that we are trying to restore.

Furthermore, national defence is the responsibility of the federal government. Since the federal government pays for security upgrades in airports, the primary target of terrorist attacks, shouldn’t they also be paying to upgrade port security?

The federal government takes responsibility for the fisheries without blinking an eye. Why is city council paying for this fence?

The 9/11 attacks were incredibly sad and distressing for people all over the world. People are afraid to oppose arguments that use 9/11 as justification because people want to do everything in their power to prevent similar attacks from happening.

The harbour fence will not prevent those attacks.

It will limit public access without consulting the public and it will be a regressive development in the design of our vibrant, downtown area. Before any decision can be made about updating or “securing” the waterfront, the people of St. John’s need more information.



Patricia Johnson-Castle is studying international development studies, African studies and philosophy at McGill University.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6118  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 1:42 PM
statbass statbass is offline
 
Join Date: May 2011
Posts: 1,654
Quote:
Originally Posted by Copes View Post
If anyone has a copy of the Telegram handy, read the Letter to the Editor today. "Don't Fence Citizens Out".

I couldn't help but face palm. Do people really think that terrorist attacks are the "security" issues that the PA is talking about?

Man this city irritates me sometimes.
I agree with your statement, Copes. Not to be a contrarian here but there are loads of other possible security threats other than terrorists attacks which can range the entire gamut of the security spectrum. I think that conventional wisdom in matters such as these give rise to absolute worst case scenarios.
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6119  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 1:45 PM
christopher_chafe christopher_chafe is offline
 
Join Date: Aug 2012
Posts: 404
Quote:
Originally Posted by Newfoundlander View Post
I agree that's why the redevelopment of the Downtown West End started. It's undeniable. We even literally razed a third-world-style slum to the ground to get started. The open objective was to redevelop the lower income areas and build a better city for more respectable folk.

But I don't think that's why it continues. I don't think anyone is purposely trying to screw over residents of Hamilton Avenue by erecting Fortis Place, or drive them to move elsewhere now that their view will be compromised.

I think it just continues now because it's the easiest place to develop - the most open spaces, the least valuable heritage, etc.

And, whatever reasons for the better heritage protection in the Downtown East End, I'm grateful for it. I'd hate to be completely unable to take a picture that is, from top to bottom, old St. John's without being interrupted by an obviously modern building.

I never want to lose this:


Old St. John's by Signal Hill Hiker Photography, on Flickr
I agree with you 100% on that picture Signal.....— I meant Newfoundlander......which is why I believe that east and west should be redeveloped with the middle staying "olde world".
Reply With Quote
     
     
  #6120  
Old Posted Dec 12, 2012, 1:58 PM
PoscStudent's Avatar
PoscStudent PoscStudent is offline
 
Join Date: Jan 2010
Posts: 3,817
Quote:
Originally Posted by jeddy1989 View Post
oh we know lol.. FEIRCE debates at the time

I think actually this may have been the start of miss O'Leary too... either way it changed the way we develop and probably the magnitude of it's affect on things is only rivaled by the Atlantic Place development

Edit: I was all for it at the time (west end DT was not on ANYONES radar) and it was the only large development in like 25 years! so it was something to get excited over.. now looking at it I'm kinda glad that development happened the way it did (and didn't go through.. it's not attractive now to me at all).. it did give way to highrise developments and much better quality buildings and more clarity on urbanizm in DT
I prefer Fortis Place to the old proposal, but I still support the idea. The design needed to be updated but I still don't see anything wrong with an office building going there. I'd rather it on the other side if Prescott and Water where that hotel was/is suppose to go.
Reply With Quote
     
     
This discussion thread continues

Use the page links to the lower-right to go to the next page for additional posts
 
 
Reply

Go Back   SkyscraperPage Forum > Regional Sections > Canada > Atlantic Provinces > St. John's
Forum Jump



Forum Jump


All times are GMT. The time now is 10:58 AM.

     

Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.8.7
Copyright ©2000 - 2026, vBulletin Solutions, Inc.