The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[CdnEh]

Amalgamating GBW, Rothesay and Quispamsis would create a truly MASSIVE city.

Saint John is already huge area wise. What would amalgamation bring it to?

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

I believe Portland, Oregon has the policy he is describing. Moncton could benefit from one so it grows upward and not outward. With Moncton growing in population it's kinda a shame it doesn't get nice condo towers and density downtown to go with it.

The suburbs didn't happen because there are a whole bunch of unhappy families who were forced into their single family homes because developers wouldn't give them what they want. Is the reason there aren't 10,000 Condo units on the Peninsula (or downtown Moncton) because developers refuse to give people what they want, or are there 10,000 single family houses a 15 minute drive from Saint John limits because those people don't want to live in a Condo on the Peninsula? Perhaps Mr. Rocca can comment, because if it's the first like many of you think, there should have been a waiting list of 1,000+ families for the Harbourfront residences and phases 2 through 40 would have been no brainers.

Trying to set up some zoning to ram people (against their will in my mind) into Condos will simply result in them leaving. What's the hold to force people to stay in Saint John against their will? Nothing I'm aware of.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

The suburbs didn't happen because there are a whole bunch of unhappy families who were forced into their single family homes because developers wouldn't give them what they want. Is the reason there aren't 10,000 Condo units on the Peninsula (or downtown Moncton) because developers refuse to give people what they want, or are there 10,000 single family houses a 15 minute drive from Saint John limits because those people don't want to live in a Condo on the Peninsula? Perhaps Mr. Rocca can comment, because if it's the first like many of you think, there should have been a waiting list of 1,000+ families for the Harbourfront residences and phases 2 through 40 would have been no brainers.

Trying to set up some zoning to ram people (against their will in my mind) into Condos will simply result in them leaving. What's the hold to force people to stay in Saint John against their will? Nothing I'm aware of.

Actually Saint John adopted a new plan that restricts development to areas that have existing infrastructure. I don't think anyone suggested its limited to a small area like the peninsula. What the city is saying is we can t afford to extend services and infrastructure to your development if its off in the boonies in the far reaches of the city.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but since you're proposing that they be drawn, are you under the impression that our current municipalities don't have boundaries?

The urban boundary would be drawn around the furthest extent of existing infrastructure. Even swaths of forest or undeveloped lands that are within city limits would be excluded in this newly drawn boundary, which serves as disallowing further low-density development, which saves the taxpayer from taking on more debt for infrastructure creation.

Essentially this is how you direct devvelopment toward inward urbanism, such as what Toronto has done in an attempt to save their municipal budget.

[JHikka]

The urban boundary is something that PlanSJ addresses, just not as forcibly.

Originally Posted by cdnguys

My solution to slay the economic problem in NB once and for all would be wildly unpopular but on a provincial level we should have a "new deal" with the Federal Government:
New Brunswick Accord:
- stop the double tax on owner unoccupied properties

This is currently being phased in.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by JHikka

The urban boundary is something that PlanSJ addresses, just not as forcibly.

Then it is not useful.

If Saint John -- and any of the neighbouring communities (which should be merged with Saint John) -- continue approving expansions of low-density residential subdivisions and low-density industrial parks, then developers haven't a reason to use the land within the limits of these municipalities.

Regardless, 'PlanSJ' is a municipal plan, and when it comes to city planning in New Brunswick the province can do whatever it wants regardless of what's in your city's urban planning legislation.

This has been an issue for Moncton, with the forced relocation of Moncton High School out of their downtown to the fringes of the city. City council didn't want this relocation to happen because it would further de-centralise an already stagnant downtown, further add to municipal infrastructure debt (especially in the long-term), further add to public service debt, futher water-down the city's tax base, and further create an already sprawled city that is unappealing to today's young working demographics: ...but too bad! The province does what it desires, even when it eventually harm's the province's budget.

So many expansions of roads... So much car dependence... Though it's bad for most taxpayers (the average consumer), it's very good for Irving's profits.

[Ire Narissis]

Originally Posted by CdnEh

I know Saint John is a very artistic city and all but I'm not sure I'm feeling this "postmodern 3D" look they've got going on with the new Future Shop signage



Wait... wait... I know this isn't a Moncton thread but...

"OMG IS THAT BACKGROUND 'BESTBUY BLUE'???"

For what it's worth, the blue was the original colour of that overhang. Evidently, they've replaced their letters with smaller ones, revealing the original paint job underneath the letters where the new paint couldn't be applied.

Hopefully they'll get that touched up... :/

I know, I know, I'm a buzzkill.

As for the amalgamation arguments, I'm not sure I understand the whole "Saint John can't afford to amalgamate because then it'll have to extend services to the suburban communities!" argument. Those communities already have services; would Saint John not simply acquire that existing framework through a super-city amalgamation? Ideally, merging each community's existing municipal services under one umbrella would lead to an overall cost savings in the long run compared to each being run independently. Even the transit system already has Com-Ex which could simply continue to run as-is.

[Peter_johnns]

I like the idea of forming a new city. Champlain is perfect and would provide benefits in itself. Without French NBers Moncton would be nothing. A francophone friendly city named Champlain would have all the political clout Moncton has, with all the benefits of having Saint John

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Peter_johnns

I like the idea of forming a new city. Champlain is perfect and would provide benefits in itself. Without French NBers Moncton would be nothing. A francophone friendly city named Champlain would have all the political clout Moncton has, with all the benefits of having Saint John

I'm not sure I understand what you're trying to convey. Are you proposing 'Champlain' as the name for an amalgamated Moncton area?

There is already 'Codiac Transit' and 'Codiac Police' to which the Moncton area has become accustomed; therefore, adopting this abbreviated river name for the entire area would seem natural. Although I'd prefer 'Acadia City', I don't know if there would be resistance to this from anglophones (mostly in Riverview), and perhaps even the large francophone population in Dieppe for an entirely different reason (i.e.: they may not want anglophones to identify as 'Acadians'?).

You are correct in your statement about the significance of francophones for Moncton. The Brayons, Acadians, and Quebecers are a main supply of new population to the region. It seems as though all the young francophones from the north are moving down!

[Peter_johnns]

I am not talking about Moncton. I have no idea what the situation there is... But Moncton should not be called Acadia, you cant disregard the majority (anglophones)
I mean Saint John and its suburbs should amalgamate into a new city named after the man who discovered the shores on market slip in uptown Saint John.
That would be my vote, though other options like Lancaster or Carlton also make sense.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by CdnEh

Amalgamating GBW, Rothesay and Quispamsis would create a truly MASSIVE city.

Saint John is already huge area wise. What would amalgamation bring it to?

With one government, resources can be pooled and directed toward larger investments that would otherwise be impossible without a lot of political theatre. With one government, the formerly separate communities would no longer be competing with each other, but instead be working closely together for the benefit of the whole.

With one government, you can more easily put an end to the sprawled growth and begin focusing on inward urbanism. This would do wonders for Uptown Saint John. The more vertical development you achieve, the more tax revenues you generate! ....And you don't have to force the taxpayer to go into more debt paying for roads because you'll be using the infrastructure you already have. This means road, utility, water and sewage maintenance becomes more affordable, especially for the smaller communities.

The amalgamation of Halifax--Dartmouth--Bedford--and Sackville was honestly one of the best decisions that was made in Nova Scotia. The HRM has brought its downtown back to life: even before the economic benefits of the shipbuilding contract kicks in.

Uptown Saint John has made great progress in the cruise ship market. A newly merged Saint John would have more flexibility to direct funds to the projects that will bring the greatest money rewards for the entire area.

Amalgamation needs to happen.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by Peter_johnns

I am not talking about Moncton. I have no idea what the situation there is... But Moncton should not be called Acadia, you cant disregard the majority (anglophones)
I mean Saint John and its suburbs should amalgamate into a new city named after the man who discovered the shores on market slip in uptown Saint John.
That would be my vote, though other options like Lancaster or Carlton also make sense.

There is Acadia University in Nova Scotia (and it's an anglophone university!). It doesn't disregard the majority, as much as it acknowledges history.

Acadians settled in the Moncton area first, later being invaded by English officer Lt. Col. Robert Monckton. But this was hundreds of years ago; the year is now 2012, and the established francophone and anglophone communities of the Moncton region have both maintained themselves and blended nicely.

As an anglophone, I just felt 'Acadia City' would be a nice gesture, and clever branding as the francophone aspect to the region is an asset for attracting French commerce and immigration.

With respect to a name for Saint John, all the names you've mentioned seem appropriate. The only thing I would suggest is to decide on a name that is not overused, or isn't used by a really well known city.

(This is why London, Ontario really needs to change its name! )

[Peter_johnns]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

With one government, resources can be pooled and directed toward larger investments that would otherwise be impossible without a lot of political theatre. With one government, the formerly separate communities would no longer be competing with each other, but instead be working closely together for the benefit of the whole.

Exactly. This applies to everything from city services to recreation. Instead of multiple mediocre rec. facilities in the suburbs you could have larger more diverse facilities in Saint John serving the Metro.

Improving upon NB's top urban core is something SJ is always doing. But nothing would impact it more than amalgamation.

[JHikka]

Again, there's nothing for residents of GBW/Rothesay/Quispamsis to benefit from currently through amalgamation. You can't convince people who live in these areas to focus on amalgamation for the purposes of inward urbanism when many either left Saint John to avoid just that, or did not move into city limits for that purpose. Lowering taxes and rates within the city would be a good start, reforming things like the pension plan and city departments is another, but it's still a long-term item.

The province's current program for amalgamation focuses more on mid-sized areas like Shippagan and Sussex more than it does the major centres of Saint John and Moncton.

[Peter_johnns]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

With respect to a name for Saint John, all the names you've mentioned seem appropriate. The only thing I would suggest is to decide on a name that is not overused, or isn't used by a really well known city.

(This is why London, Ontario really needs to change its name! )

My argument for the name Champlain for an amalgamated Saint John other than he being the cartographer who discovered SJ, would be it would give the area political clout and help fuel growth in terms of a Acadian pop. in the area and provincial funding— since that seems to be the case in other parts of the province.

[CdnEh]

Originally Posted by Ire Narissis

For what it's worth, the blue was the original colour of that overhang. Evidently, they've replaced their letters with smaller ones, revealing the original paint job underneath the letters where the new paint couldn't be applied.

Hopefully they'll get that touched up... :/

I know, I know, I'm a buzzkill.

Yes, I'm aware. It was an attempt at sarcasm.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Again, there's nothing for residents of GBW/Rothesay/Quispamsis to benefit from currently through amalgamation. You can't convince people who live in these areas to focus on amalgamation for the purposes of inward urbanism when many either left Saint John to avoid just that, or did not move into city limits for that purpose. Lowering taxes and rates within the city would be a good start, reforming things like the pension plan and city departments is another, but it's still a long-term item.

The province's current program for amalgamation focuses more on mid-sized areas like Shippagan and Sussex more than it does the major centres of Saint John and Moncton.

Benefits to afford the following:

1. The continued existence of their jobs. With growing debt and redundant municipal governments, public investment is compromised, which means job creation is harmed. The loss of jobs is accelerated as young people (aka: the future labour force) move to cities that have density (urban living options: apartments and condos near colleges and universities that are also close to many sources of jobs, connected via pedestrian oriented streets -- all accompanied with decent modes of public transit).

2. The maintenance of their roads, utilities, water and sewer systems.

3. The maintenance of public services, such as schools, police and fire protection, and government.

All of this stuff these small communities demand are not paid for by the tax revenues collected from these small communities (the tax rate is far too low to cover the costs); therefore, they are subsidised by the province -- and the province is subsidised by the federal government. Amalgamation is the least you could do to give 'have' provinces a break from all the free welfare they throw at you...

Inward urbanism is how you grow your tax base -- instead of further watering it down with more sprawl. Cities need density in order to survive; otherwise they run the risk of sprawling themselves into bankruptcy.

The world's population is trending toward cities. The Saint John area needs to make itself more 'city-like' to compete. Creating itself to be endless townships isn't sustainable mathematically.

[CdnEh]

Wouldn't amalgamation just create even more of this so-called "deadly sprawl"?

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by CdnEh

Wouldn't amalgamation just create even more of this so-called "deadly sprawl"?

What are your suspicions?

Why would creating a unified municipal government cause the city's borders to suddenly explode outward at a faster pace?

[JHikka]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Benefits to afford the following:

1. The continued existence of their jobs. With growing debt and redundant municipal governments, public investment is compromised, which means job creation is harmed. The loss of jobs is accelerated as young people (aka: the future labour force) move to cities that have density (urban living options: apartments and condos near colleges and universities that are also close to many sources of jobs, connected via pedestrian oriented streets -- all accompanied with decent modes of public transit).

2. The maintenance of their roads, utilities, water and sewer systems.

3. The maintenance of public services, such as schools, police and fire protection, and government.

All of this stuff these small communities demand are not paid for by the tax revenues collected from these small communities (the tax rate is far too low to cover the costs); therefore, they are subsidised by the province -- and the province is subsidised by the federal government. Amalgamation is the least you could do to give 'have' provinces a break from all the free welfare they throw at you...

Inward urbanism is how you grow your tax base -- instead of further watering it down with more sprawl. Cities need density in order to survive; otherwise they run the risk of sprawling themselves into bankruptcy.

The world's population is trending toward cities. The Saint John area needs to make itself more 'city-like' to compete. Creating itself to be endless townships isn't sustainable mathematically.

That doesn't really answer the question that I had presented, though. What incentive is there today to get people in suburbs to agree to amalgamate into a so-called failing city? People aren't going to listen to you if you tell them their livelihoods will be in danger in 10, 15, 20 years. They need to be provided a direct, immediate reason for amalgamation. Anything else, according to them, would just be presumption.

I think it would be feeble for people in suburbs to amalgamate into the city and then restrict all development in their communities. There's no way citizens would agree to join a city that would thus neglect the areas that just amalgamated. Someone living in Westfield or Gondola Point isn't going to join a city so all their tax money can go into the Peninsula. I agree that inward urbanism is something that needs to be done to become sustainable but the city of Saint John is going to have to do that on its own without the help of the suburbs. If the city can show that it's on the right track (building an urban core) then it will bring people back into the city by moving and redistribution and not through the means of amalgamation. The city can begin working on its core now (which it has begun already with PlanSJ) and if that goes well then changes should arrive from that. I know I keep harping on it, but taxes and rates need to drop before the city even dreams of winning people back. There's no reason for the city to have some of the highest rates for water, police, and fire in the country other than the accumulation of years of mistakes and difficulties.