The Official Saint John, NB Project Thread

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Nope.

Considering the areas you listed were a part of Saint John until 1999 and only became independent so recently the possibility of amalgamating again so soon is next to none. Considering that, combined with the fact that Saint John is an absolute mess right now, and I wouldn't blame the suburbs for not wanting to amalgamate. Amalgamation would lead to an even more ridiculous-sized city with even further spread out services. At this point in time Saint John is trying to cut back and limit the size of city departments and services, so taking in more land/population would be counter-intuitive to that.

One thing Saint John can do, now that we seem to have figured out our pension difficulties and after a reduction in city departments, is to begin lowering rates and taxes across the board. Make it feasible for people to live in the city rather than ten minutes outside of it. There will have to be, eventually, a sweet-spot where it's just as expensive to live and work in the city as it is to live outside and work within. With property assessments continuing to rise in Quispamsis this grey area can't be too far from reach.

Along with that, something has to be done about the widespread poverty and low-income population within the city itself.

Rothesay, Quispamsis and Grand Bay were never part of Saint John. Amalgamation was solely in the bedroom communities. Last time Saint John boundary changed was decades ago when Lancaster and Simonds parish amalgamated with city. At the very least we don't need three policing agencies and three fire departments.

My solution to slay the economic problem in NB once and for all would be wildly unpopular but on a provincial level we should have a "new deal" with the Federal Government:
New Brunswick Accord:
- Federal government completely pays off NB's $12,000,000,000 debt. However, in exchange NB would: (because of money saved on interest payments)
- be constitutionally unable to run a deficit
- spin off NB Power into a publicly traded corporation
- have the lowest personal and business taxes in Canada to spur growth
- no longer receive transfer payments
- turn over retail sales of liquor to private sector
- stop the double tax on owner unoccupied properties
- audit government delivery of services and pare down waste / costs
- give some control of immigration to province (like Quebec)
- force merger of Moncton/Riverview/Dieppe and Saint John/KV/GBW

[Peter_johnns]

[QUOTE=JHikka;5930605]Nope.

Considering the areas you listed were a part of Saint John until 1999 and only became independent so recently the possibility of amalgamating again so soon is next to none.

You are going to have to cite your sources on that. I do not think that is correct. The area of SJ city proper has never shrank. Only the population has.

[Peter_johnns]

Can I get some input on the original post. The idea of a new city under the name "Champlain" incorporating the city of Saint John and the bedroom communities. KV GBW...
the name is appealing to not only Saint Johners but Acadian NBers. Not to mention the market appeal.

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by Peter_johnns

Can I get some input on the original post. The idea of a new city under the name "Champlain" incorporating the city of Saint John and the bedroom communities. KV GBW...
the name is appealing to not only Saint Johners but Acadian NBers. Not to mention the market appeal.

I can't see a name change. Look at the uproar when the city wanted to rename "uptown" to "downtown" - imagine changing the city's historical name the outrage that would cause. Having said that Champlain is a nice name. This city has too much rich history and proud citizens - name change out of the question IMO

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by Peter_johnns

Can I get some input on the original post. The idea of a new city under the name "Champlain" incorporating the city of Saint John and the bedroom communities. KV GBW...
the name is appealing to not only Saint Johners but Acadian NBers. Not to mention the market appeal.

Lack of response is input...

There is so little connection between Champlain and the city site, that I think there would be very little support for it, and certainly to me very little appeal. Of all the possible places to call Champlain, Saint John would be very low on the list. Of course I can`t speak for all residents of Quispamsis, but calling an amalgamated area Saint John to me is a no-brainer.

[phishy]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

Lack of response is input...

There is so little connection between Champlain and the city site, that I think there would be very little support for it, and certainly to me very little appeal. Of all the possible places to call Champlain, Saint John would be very low on the list. Of course I can`t speak for all residents of Quispamsis, but calling an amalgamated area Saint John to me is a no-brainer.

Amalgamation isn't going to happen soon, and if it did you're right, it should be called Saint John. Champlain is a poor choice for a city, and there is too much history here related to Saint John to simply just change the name.

Integration of the fire, policing and other services (sanitation, etc) make perfect sense and would save money for everyone and make things more efficient. I am hoping to see a lot of movement on this soon.

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by phishy

Amalgamation isn't going to happen soon, and if it did you're right, it should be called Saint John. Champlain is a poor choice for a city, and there is too much history here related to Saint John to simply just change the name.

Integration of the fire, policing and other services (sanitation, etc) make perfect sense and would save money for everyone and make things more efficient. I am hoping to see a lot of movement on this soon.

Personally I hate the idea of amalgamation as it is a massive distraction and cost to implement, but it`s just shameful the waste in the status quo. Looking at Rec facilities, Quispam had to go alone because they couldn`t get an agreement with Rothesay, Rothesay then decided to go alone on their own facility, and of course now there is discussion of Saint John going alone on a facility. Millions wasted.

[Peter_johnns]

I would think that since Champlain was the first to land on our shores that the name would be fitting...

[cdnguys]

New Signage on Police Station

[JHikka]

Blah, I was thinking of all of the amalgamations around Saint John in 1998. My bad guys.

Anyway, regardless, amalgamation isn't going to be happening any time soon. A more likely event would be amalgamation amongst the valley communities and they don't agree on sharing a whole lot as of late.

Regional associations are being created and there were meetings recently with all of the mayors and representatives from smaller rural communities outside of the city (Simonds being one of them) and there will hopefully be some cooperation there. These things, like amalgamation, don't happen overnight. Start with departments and services and work from there.

[CdnEh]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

I can't see a name change. Look at the uproar when the city wanted to rename "uptown" to "downtown" - imagine changing the city's historical name the outrage that would cause. Having said that Champlain is a nice name. This city has too much rich history and proud citizens - name change out of the question IMO

"Uptown" is our thing and it's just something you don't touch.

[CdnEh]

I know Saint John is a very artistic city and all but I'm not sure I'm feeling this "postmodern 3D" look they've got going on with the new Future Shop signage



Wait... wait... I know this isn't a Moncton thread but...

"OMG IS THAT BACKGROUND 'BESTBUY BLUE'???"

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by JHikka

Blah, I was thinking of all of the amalgamations around Saint John in 1998. My bad guys.

Anyway, regardless, amalgamation isn't going to be happening any time soon. A more likely event would be amalgamation amongst the valley communities and they don't agree on sharing a whole lot as of late.

Regional associations are being created and there were meetings recently with all of the mayors and representatives from smaller rural communities outside of the city (Simonds being one of them) and there will hopefully be some cooperation there. These things, like amalgamation, don't happen overnight. Start with departments and services and work from there.

I am extremely doubtful your conclusion of non-amalgamation is accurate, considering the province's current debt and especially considering its forecasted debt in the long-term.

We all realise the northern region of the province is in decline and lacks the industries to dig itself out of its hole; however, I believe it's important to realise that the southern region of the province exists in that same hole. There currently aren't any municipalities in this province that are working their way toward being revenue-neutral, let alone profitable... Even Moncton's budgets show that it isn't paying off its debt (even with the help of federal equalisation transfers).

So as we keep this notion of growing, long-term debt in mind, and how this is hampering our ability to invest in job creation, and how at some point federal equalisation transfers upon which the entire province depends are not going to cover the costs of maintaining our sprawled infrastructure and concurrently sprawled public services (police, fire, hospitals, etc.) -- I believe amalgamation, though unpopular, is less unpopular than these proud municipalities losing public services, losing private sector jobs, and losing even more young working demographics to the west.

A province full of retirees isn't going to pay the province's bills.

Amalgamation, which exists at the privilege of the province (the cities have no say, legally), will happen sooner rather than later, I believe.

We simply haven't a choice, economically. It must be done.

[CdnEh]

I don't think amalgamation of SJ and surrounding areas will happen anytime soon.

However, I think it would definitely be a good idea to amalgamate police services, something like the Codiac RCMP does for the Moncton area.

The savings on administration costs alone would be massive.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by cdnguys

Rothesay, Quispamsis and Grand Bay were never part of Saint John. Amalgamation was solely in the bedroom communities. Last time Saint John boundary changed was decades ago when Lancaster and Simonds parish amalgamated with city. At the very least we don't need three policing agencies and three fire departments.

My solution to slay the economic problem in NB once and for all would be wildly unpopular but on a provincial level we should have a "new deal" with the Federal Government:
New Brunswick Accord:
- Federal government completely pays off NB's $12,000,000,000 debt. However, in exchange NB would: (because of money saved on interest payments)
- be constitutionally unable to run a deficit
- spin off NB Power into a publicly traded corporation
- have the lowest personal and business taxes in Canada to spur growth
- no longer receive transfer payments
- turn over retail sales of liquor to private sector
- stop the double tax on owner unoccupied properties
- audit government delivery of services and pare down waste / costs
- give some control of immigration to province (like Quebec)
- force merger of Moncton/Riverview/Dieppe and Saint John/KV/GBW

I like your thinking. You've proposed some difficult changes, but I share your opinion that they may be necessary.

I'm uncertain if the 'deal' Ottawa would offer New Brunswick would be as sweet as the list you've composed. As well, though saying 'no' to future transfer payments seems like an idea to end wasteful spending, New Brunswick's public services could not be maintained. The province would be saying goodbye to quality healthcare, roads, schools....

This is not a recipe for economic growth. We have to keep the province competitive, as we focus on sustainable growth.

There are superbly rich corporations existing in this province that can certainly afford a higher tax rate. I advocate that we stop subsidising these high-profit companies, so we may allocate the tax revenue to where it is needed; therefore, I disagree with your idea of pushing tax rates down further. The province has a revenue problem. Collecting less revenues isn't going to help promote growth because growth is highly concurrent with public investments in infrastructure, services, and the municipalities' modes of urban planning.

Speaking of urban planning: a good deal for this province would be mandatory sprawl prevention. In other words: every municipality would have a border drawn around it. Future developments would therefore be using existing infrastructure (so that taxpayers would not have to pay for more roads, more utility lines, more water and sewage systems), and this future development would eventually build vertically as land within this urban border became more scarce.

We'd begin to see private developers proposing the construction of towers (which is more labour intensive that low-density, sprawled development). This would be a rich source of private sector jobs for the province.

Your idea for merging communities together is spot on. I agree completely. Personally, I would go a far to amalgamate the entire north, given its poor economy and the cultural aspects they have in common. But most certainly: the entire Fredericton area needs to merge, as does the Saint John area, as does the Moncton area.

Name changes are always a possibility. I suspect 'Saint John' would remain as the name. If anything, 'Moncton' would not be the final name for the new municipality to which it would belong. I believe 'Codiac City' is more viable, considering Dieppe would never want to be called 'Moncton'. I've romanticised about 'Acadia City' being the new name (since Central Canada has 'Quebec City'). And I'm an anglophone, with an Acadian father, by the way. There are Anglo-Acadians, just as there are Anglo-Quebecers.

Nevertheless, just because an enlarged city goes by one name, doesn't mean the former names disappear. 'Dartmouth' is no longer a city; and despite the fact that everyone calls the area 'HRM', or more commonly 'Halifax', when speaking to people within the city, the names of the former cities never die out. Because you simply don't change the signage!

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by CdnEh

I don't think amalgamation of SJ and surrounding areas will happen anytime soon.

However, I think it would definitely be a good idea to amalgamate police services, something like the Codiac RCMP does for the Moncton area.

The savings on administration costs alone would be massive.

The longer we wait to merge the communities, the longer we harm their economies. Saint John's economy is the poorest of 'the big three', so I would think it'd be the first to amalgamate.

Either the province does it -- or Ottawa steps in and tells the province to do it.

Honestly, it depends on how badly NB's debt grows. It's projected to grow massively. Do we wait for the economy to get really bad, or do we deal with wasteful spending now?!

Why keep the communities separated?

[cdnguys]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

I like your thinking. You've proposed some difficult changes, but I share your opinion that they may be necessary.

I'm uncertain if the 'deal' Ottawa would offer New Brunswick would be as sweet as the list you've composed. As well, though saying 'no' to future transfer payments seems like an idea to end wasteful spending, New Brunswick's public services could not be maintained. The province would be saying goodbye to quality healthcare, roads, schools....

This is not a recipe for economic growth. We have to keep the province competitive, as we focus on sustainable growth.

There are superbly rich corporations existing in this province that can certainly afford a higher tax rate. I advocate that we stop subsidising these high-profit companies, so we may allocate the tax revenue to where it is needed; therefore, I disagree with your idea of pushing tax rates down further. The province has a revenue problem. Collecting less revenues isn't going to help promote growth because growth is highly concurrent with public investments in infrastructure, services, and the municipalities' modes of urban planning.

Speaking of urban planning: a good deal for this province would be mandatory sprawl prevention. In other words: every municipality would have a border drawn around it. Future developments would therefore be using existing infrastructure (so that taxpayers would not have to pay for more roads, more utility lines, more water and sewage systems), and this future development would eventually build vertically as land within this urban border became more scarce.

We'd begin to see private developers proposing the construction of towers (which is more labour intensive that low-density, sprawled development). This would be a rich source of private sector jobs for the province.

Your idea for merging communities together is spot on. I agree completely. Personally, I would go a far to amalgamate the entire north, given its poor economy and the cultural aspects they have in common. But most certainly: the entire Fredericton area needs to merge, as does the Saint John area, as does the Moncton area.

Name changes are always a possibility. I suspect 'Saint John' would remain as the name. If anything, 'Moncton' would not be the final name for the new municipality to which it would belong. I believe 'Codiac City' is more viable, considering Dieppe would never want to be called 'Moncton'. I've romanticised about 'Acadia City' being the new name (since Central Canada has 'Quebec City'). And I'm an anglophone, with an Acadian father, by the way. There are Anglo-Acadians, just as there are Anglo-Quebecers.

Nevertheless, just because an enlarged city goes by one name, doesn't mean the former names disappear. 'Dartmouth' is no longer a city; and despite the fact that everyone calls the area 'HRM', or more commonly 'Halifax', when speaking to people within the city, the names of the former cities never die out. Because you simply don't change the signage!

I don't think the end of transfer payments in a debt free NB would effect health care, etc... as you mention. Consider the province now spends $672,000,000 just to service the debt annually. That's a lot of cushion to maintain services. Of course this is all hypothetical and only an economist could say if its feasible, but in my proposal NB govn't would have a scalpel taken to it to rid of waste and there is plenty!! I further advocate placing Saint John under administration and taking it through a managed bankruptcy. Nice to come up with plan for pension, but how the hell are we going to come up with $16,000,000 every year for next ten years to fix pension plan? That's like building 8 new police stations and we fussed over one. Not to mention are roads are crumbling and services lacking. Bottom line on this rant - let's do something bold and comprehensive to get out of this mess.

[thefishingnut]

Originally Posted by RyeJay

Speaking of urban planning: a good deal for this province would be mandatory sprawl prevention. In other words: every municipality would have a border drawn around it. Future developments would therefore be using existing infrastructure (so that taxpayers would not have to pay for more roads, more utility lines, more water and sewage systems), and this future development would eventually build vertically as land within this urban border became more scarce.

We'd begin to see private developers proposing the construction of towers (which is more labour intensive that low-density, sprawled development). This would be a rich source of private sector jobs for the province.

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but since you're proposing that they be drawn, are you under the impression that our current municipalities don't have boundaries?

[cdnguys]

I believe Portland, Oregon has the policy he is describing. Moncton could benefit from one so it grows upward and not outward. With Moncton growing in population it's kinda a shame it doesn't get nice condo towers and density downtown to go with it.

[DizzyEdge]

Originally Posted by thefishingnut

Perhaps I'm reading this wrong, but since you're proposing that they be drawn, are you under the impression that our current municipalities don't have boundaries?

Would that actually stop sprawl? ie couldn't the sprawl simply cross the boarder and now taxes would be paid to the county rather than municipality, even as those county residents wear out city roads and such getting to and from work?