The Great Canadian Transit Thread - Page 93

sober2ndthought · #**1841** Posted **Dec 10, 2012, 5:18 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by UofC.engineer

Hahaha, that's hilarious.

I don't understand why soo many people don't seem to grasp the idea of what the LRT system in Calgary entails.

The LRT in Calgary doesn't operate on the road, the median of the road or mix with traffic.

Yeah it does, the NE Line pretty much runs in the middle of the road the entire length. 36th Avenue in particular has no grade separations until you hit Metis Trail.

sober2ndthought · #**1842** Posted **Dec 10, 2012, 5:20 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady

The largest independent city in the country without rapid transit is Calgary.

Calgary LRT is functionally rapid transit. For a city its size it is the perfect rapid transit solution. Get people to work usually in less than 20 minutes.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Doady

Yeah, okay, Calgary C-Train is rapid transit then, you've convinced me.

I guess Mississauga has rapid transit too. The GO Bus takes less than 45 minutes to get from Erindale to Union Station - a 30 km long route - it's even faster than the C-Train.

How does the GO Bus do when there is traffic? Calgary LRT never has content with traffic because it operates in its own ROW.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

.
Being grade separated has equally high relevance, since many rapid transit systems run so frequently that if there were streets that cross the line at grade, the road vehicles would not get sufficient opportunity to cross as there would almost always be a train coming. This also means that the trains must be limited in their length to the length of the shortest block near a stop, since it cannot be allowed to block a crossing when it is stopped. Also, allowing outside access to the track reduces reliability since there's always the possibility of things like a vehicle stalling on the tracks, or a collision with a vehicle. As a result, LRT trains often need to be built differently with more robust collision standards in case of that possibility.

Grade separation only ever has a major impact in densely packed urban cores. In more Suburban areas a grade level system works just fine. There is still quite a bit of traffic around but not enough to cause any severe issues.

Nouvellecosse · #**1843** Posted **Dec 10, 2012, 6:27 AM**

I'm didn't say it doesn't work fine for Calgary. Most cities of Calgary's size and density are just fine with standard LRT instead of rapid transit. But just because non-grade separated LRT works fine for Calgary, doesn't mean there isn't a notable difference between that and rapid transit.

And to say grade separation only has a major impact in city centres is totally untrue, since although suburban areas usually aren't affected by train lengths due to block size, at-grade crossings still limit frequency, disrupt road traffic (since cars frequently have to wait for trains to cross) and put the system at risk of issues like car/train collisions and obstacles like stalled cars blocking the tracks. This is not something that rapid transit system have to deal with.

If Calgary is not be significantly affected by these issues, that's only because it isn't big or dense enough to need rapid transit. If it was, these issues would be important.

Chadillaccc · #**1844** Posted **Dec 10, 2012, 2:52 PM**

Calgary will be grade separating the 201 line (Crowfoot - Somerset) by the mid 2020s. I believe after they put it underground through downtown they will see the benefit of grade separation and do under passes for most streets and close down the ones that aren't needed. Also there is the possibility that the 203, (future line) from the North Central areas of the city to the South East, will be mostly or fully grade separated too, it will just depend on what alignment they choose for the North Central line, and how much money they are willing to spend on the South east transitway, which will be the BRT precursor to the Southeast LRT. Also, the 203 will have 3 underground stations, one at Eau Claire, not sure about the other one, and one at 10 avenue and centre street (I think

)

Someone made theoretical maps of the future of Calgary's LRT system based on land-use studies and the Calgary Transit 20 year plan.
Here's the link: http://www.lrtincalgary.ca/FutureMap.html

sober2ndthought · #**1845** Posted **Dec 10, 2012, 4:25 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Calgary will be grade separating the 201 line (Crowfoot - Somerset) by the mid 2020s. I believe after they put it underground through downtown they will see the benefit of grade separation and do under passes for most streets and close down the ones that aren't needed.

I highly doubt route 201 will see much grade separation. It already has considerable grade separation on the NW part of the line.

The SW section of the line would see no real benefit from grade separation. It is the most isolated of the four lines and therefore it already runs faster than the other two lines and it intersects with traffic on secondary streets rather than primary streets.

The only reason I could see SW Part of the line being grade separated is because of the CPR Tracks. But again the relative isolation of this track line means it doesn't have that much of an impact on traffic.

If there is anywhere the city might consider grade separating it is the 36 Avenue section of Route 202. Of the four lines it is the only one which runs along a primary street with very little grade separation.

I know that area used to be a nightmare on the weekends when everyone tried to go shopping in the Sunridge area. But the situation has improved considerably now that Superstore opened a new location in Westwinds, I would imagine if other big box stores decide to expand northwards that area's traffic issues will start to diminish over time.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Someone made theoretical maps of the future of Calgary's LRT system based on land-use studies and the Calgary Transit 20 year plan.
Here's the link: http://www.lrtincalgary.ca/FutureMap.html

I've seen that one before, I am not sure we would see that many stations on the 8th Avenue segment though. The stations would considerably increase the cost of building the Subway and the city will take that into account when they build the 8th Avenue Subway. I think 5th Street and Centre Street will be cut from the plan and only 7th, 3rd and City Hall will be built and some kind of a connection between those and 7th Avenue.

Chadillaccc · #**1846** Posted **Dec 10, 2012, 4:55 PM**

Yeah I totally agree with the Subway part. Every 3rd block is a bit too much with a city like this, plus I'm sure they will eventually do some kind of streamlined connection between the city hall underground station and the city hall at-grade station.

As for the south, you are totally right that they did it will in that it only cross at grade with minor streets. For me, the biggest problem is the at-grade crossing as soon as you get into downtown over the bridge in the NW. Sometimes trains are slowed down by 1 - 2 minutes because of those two crossings, and even in that plan in the link I showed, one of those crossings is still at grade! Agh!

Also, I know this may sound basically ludicrous, but I think after SAIT station, the line should be underground from there and then coming back out at the existing tunnel portal between Banff Trail and University, as there are several at grade crossings in that segment. I always think it's stupid that they built two huge tunnels around Banff Trail station but didn't bother to put the station (which is our Football Stadiums station) underground.

sober2ndthought · #**1847** Posted **Dec 10, 2012, 4:56 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

I'm didn't say it doesn't work fine for Calgary. Most cities of Calgary's size and density are just fine with standard LRT instead of rapid transit. But just because non-grade separated LRT works fine for Calgary, doesn't mean there isn't a notable difference between that and rapid transit.

And to say grade separation only has a major impact in city centres is totally untrue, since although suburban areas usually aren't affected by train lengths due to block size, at-grade crossings still limit frequency, disrupt road traffic (since cars frequently have to wait for trains to cross) and put the system at risk of issues like car/train collisions and obstacles like stalled cars blocking the tracks. This is not something that rapid transit system have to deal with.

If Calgary is not be significantly affected by these issues, that's only because it isn't big or dense enough to need rapid transit. If it was, these issues would be important.

Depends on what you mean. I wouldn't say that is the case when it comes to speed. LRVs on the South line regularly travels at about 105 KM/H for the SD-160 and SD-160NG and 80 KM/H for the U2s. While on the NE Line they still achieve speeds of 80 KM/H. Calgary LRT in my experience is actually faster than Toronto's subway, according to technical data the LRT averages a speed 35 KM vs 32 KM/H for TTC subway. The 35 KM/H includes the slower section in downtown.

Frequency is also not that much of an issue, Calgary will likely be running 2-3 minute headways in the not to distant future. I think at some points of time in the morning that is already achieved.

Capacity though I can see the issue. Calgary under the current configuration probably will never be able to run more than 4 car lengths. Maybe 5 once the Downtown is built but nothing beyond that configuration. However, the money saved on not building lengthy grade separations can be used to build more lines, which theoretically is the better way to go.

sober2ndthought · #**1848** Posted **Dec 10, 2012, 5:03 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Yeah I totally agree with the Subway part. Every 3rd block is a bit too much with a city like this, plus I'm sure they will eventually do some kind of streamlined connection between the city hall underground station and the city hall at-grade station.

As for the south, you are totally right that they did it will in that it only cross at grade with minor streets. For me, the biggest problem is the at-grade crossing as soon as you get into downtown over the bridge in the NW. Sometimes trains are slowed down by 1 - 2 minutes because of those two crossings, and even in that plan in the link I showed, one of those crossings is still at grade! Agh!

Also, I know this may sound basically ludicrous, but I think after SAIT station, the line should be underground from there and then coming back out at the existing tunnel portal between Banff Trail and University, as there are several at grade crossings in that segment. I always think it's stupid that they built two huge tunnels around Banff Trail station but didn't bother to put the station (which is our Football Stadiums station) underground.

That would be very difficult to do now. The folks in Kensington would go crazy if you tried to do too much work on the LRT in there neighbourhood. They barely agreed to having it built in the first place, actually I don't think they ever did I think it was forced on them.

On a different note does anyone know why the new SD-160NGs are not being painted entirely in the coke-cola scheme? I noticed only the roofs of the SD-160NGs are being painted.

Chadillaccc · #**1849** Posted **Dec 10, 2012, 5:05 PM**

Yeah, it would be nice/extremely beneficial if they converted the 201 to 5 car trains once the downtown subway is built, since with a subway the stations won't be restricted by the size of a city block.

and about frequency, I believe they are installing a new signalling system or something like that starting this year which will greatly improve the speed and the ROW.

feepa · #**1850** Posted **Dec 10, 2012, 7:03 PM**

what are the time lines on the 8th avenue subway? how critical is it needed?

Chadillaccc · #**1851** Posted **Dec 10, 2012, 7:58 PM**

It's not critical yet. But once the West LRT reaches its capacity and the TODs are built, the 7th avenue corridor will not be capable of effectively carrying the loads of both lines. I'd say probably by 2020 they will have a serious proposal for it if not have it UC by then. But I know the SE line is the next to go ahead which will be 2017 I believe, and that will have a couple underground stations downtown.

Chadillaccc · #**1852** Posted **Dec 11, 2012, 6:33 AM**

Gave myself a tour of the West LRT. First day open today.

Sunalta Station

View between Sunalta and Shaganappi Stations

Shaganappi Station

Westbrook Station
Platform Level

Light Cannon

Atrium/South Station head

Entire station above ground level including TOD

Field of light cannons

Northern Station head/Public Library

45 Street Station

Sirocco Station

69th Street Station
Platform level

East Station head(Station heads are absolutely massive inside, very grand)

Park n' Ride

High School as part of the TOD

Platform level from the street

Terminus ditch

West Station head

View coming back downtown

Source: me

Nouvellecosse · #**1853** Posted **Dec 11, 2012, 6:40 AM**

Wow, that is BEAUTIFUL. How much did the project cost per km?

Hali87 · #**1854** Posted **Dec 11, 2012, 9:12 AM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

High School as part of the TOD

This is a new high school? It looks just like the ones in NS from the 70s, only more colourful

Chadillaccc · #**1855** Posted **Dec 11, 2012, 9:14 AM**

Yeah I was actually underwhelmed and disappointed by the design of the school.

freeweed · #**1856** Posted **Dec 11, 2012, 3:59 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

Wow, that is BEAUTIFUL. How much did the project cost per km?

Something like 1-1.5 billion for 8km, whatever that works out to.

caltrane74 · #**1857** Posted **Dec 11, 2012, 5:13 PM**

Nice pictures Chad ole boy!

Those pictures make Calgary look like it's in the Artic Circle or something..

red-paladin · #**1858** Posted **Dec 11, 2012, 5:20 PM**

Beatiful! If only the Canada Line was like that.

Metro-One · #**1859** Posted **Dec 11, 2012, 6:08 PM**

Quote:

Originally Posted by red-paladin

Beatiful! If only the Canada Line was like that.

Nah, I like my automation and grade separation on the Canada line

Use it everyday and would not trade it.

Also, 19 km for 2 billion.

Calgary forum members, I am not knocking your beautiful new LRT line, I think it is great! Just battling the same crap arguments that pop up in the Vancouver forum section

Daveography · #**1860** Posted **Dec 11, 2012, 7:06 PM**

Great tour! The line and stations look really good. Can't wait to give it a spin the next time I'm down there.