The Great Canadian Transit Thread

[will_g]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

The TTC / Metrolinx are looking at Turning the Airport Link into a Downtown Relief Line - West



From the star

http://www.thestar.com/news/transportati...sal-floated-by-stintz-debaeremaeker?bn=1

Why not try extending something into Mississauga?

[LeftCoaster]

Mississauga isn't a part of the TTC, the run their own transit system.

[Chadillaccc]

And they have no intention of making the sensible decision to connect themselves to the rest of the rapid transit system of the GTA. Instead just building an independent system.

Hence why they have been debt free for 30 years, they are the largest independent city in the country without rapid transit.

[caltrane74]

They are currently building a busway, which will be very easy to up-convert to a LRT when the demand is there.

This is a serious busway

http://www.mrc.ca/mrc_news/mississauga-brt-segment-1-reaches-50-completion/





The Mississauga Busway Running alongside the highway -


Inside the BRT Stations

[caltrane74]

Originally Posted by LeftCoaster

wait a sec the streetcars are already arriving? I thought their delivery had been postponed?

I believe testing is to begin in late 2012. Should be on the rails sometime, in 2013/2014 phased in to all lines by 2018.

This picture is from the plant in Thunder Bay. - Still a while to go before they arrive here:


http://www.openfile.ca/toronto/blog/2012/photo-newsworthy-look-torontos-new-streetcars

[Dado]

Originally Posted by caltrane74

They are currently building a busway, which will be very easy to up-convert to a LRT when the demand is there.

This is a serious busway

http://www.mrc.ca/mrc_news/mississauga-brt-segment-1-reaches-50-completion/

Easy to convert... haha. We've heard that one before: in Ottawa, courtesy of the *very same consultants* who have fought tooth and nail for well over a decade to prevent conversion of their precious busways to LRT.

No, here is what will happen in Mississauga when the demand is there to convert:

1. There will be rear-guard arguments about the 'need' to convert at all.
2. There will be arguments about spending the money in another corridor instead.
3. The decision to put off converting will be left later and later, for the simple matter that the level of demand sufficient to justify LRT is well below the maximum capability of BRT (see (1) and (2)), so it is easy to just put it off for another day, with the upshot that conversion actually becomes more and more difficult and costly.

Originally Posted by caltrane74

The Mississauga Busway looks awesome. They should have just built the LRT one time.

Yep, that's the lesson from Ottawa.

Thankfully with the ROW in place all they have to do is lay the track and buy the cars when they are ready.

You might think that, and they might want you to believe that, but I'm afraid it just isn't so, at least not given the way busways are designed and built by those consultants.

Where exactly will the track go? Will it be flush with the road surface, requiring it to be all dug up? Will it be placed on top of the the road surface with ballast (or without?), but possibly creating clearance issues at underpasses?

Where will the power supply go? Will the poles be centre-aligned, requiring the busway to be dug up every 25 m or so for footings, or side-mounted, which is easier to do while buses are operating but twice as many are needed?

What will happen at stations? Will the platforms need to be raised? If so, are there shelters, stairs and elevators that will need to be adjusted?

And what will you do with the buses during conversion, especially given the fact that by the time conversion comes about, bus traffic will probably be quite heavy?


The truth of the matter is that if a busway were truly being designed for conversion to LRT, quite a few design decisions would be taken that are quite different than what we see in practice. Stations for instance would be designed so that the platforms would not need to be raised or altered; the roadway would just be given extra thickness at stations allowing for it to be removed later on, meaning buses would actually climb into stations. The stations would likely also be designed with staggered platforms and only three lanes rather than the four lane layout we typically see. You might even go so far as to operate the entire busway as contraflow, with central platforms. Footings would be poured for future catenary, or street light footings and poles would be designed to double as supports.

That we don't see anything like this kind of forethought in the design of 'convertible' busways indicates they aren't really being designed to be converted.

[caltrane74]

By the time discussion turns to upconverting the Mississauga Busway to an LRT we'll be too old to care or dead. The technicalities of the conversion process will be handled by another younger generation far more advanced than ours current.

Anyways, Mississauga's first LRT will go on Hurontario. I believe already approved and waiting for funding.

[goodthings]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

And they have no intention of making the sensible decision to connect themselves to the rest of the rapid transit system of the GTA. Instead just building an independent system.

Have you read "The Big Move" and "MoveOntario 2020"? Mississauga's and the rest of the GTA's independent transit systems are not a hindrance to the big picture in the GTA's rapid transit vision.

Just saying that they have no intention on connecting to the rest of the GTA is just plain ignorant. It's actually Toronto that doesn't want to integrate with the rest of the GTA for the following proofs:
- the TTC's antiquated transfer system do not match the time-based transfer system of the 905's, hence...
- 905ers have to pay a second fare to go the TTC, and Torontonians who take 905 systems have to pay a second fare to go to their respective 905 system, therefore to avoid confusion and unfairness...
- the TTC has duplicate routes that can otherwise be cancelled and run by the surrounding 905 systems. Presto card will definitely help solve this issue.

Mississauga's Rapid Transit system will connect with the rest of the GTA (and GGH)'s rapid transit systems:

Mississauga BRT (Segment 1 to run in 2013) will connect to the following rapid transit systems:
- Waterloo Region LRT (via GO Bus Route 25) at University of Waterloo, Wilfrid laurier university and Charles Street Terminal
- Hamilton LRT (via GO Bus Route 47) at McMaster University and Downtown Hamilton
- Halton Region's Trafalgar BRT (via GO Bus Route 46) at Sheridan College and Oakville GO Station
- Halton Region's Dundas BRT (via GO Bus Route 46) at Trafalgar Road
- TTC's Yonge-University-Spadina Subway (via GO Bus Route 19) at Yorkdale Subway Station, (via GO Bus Routes 45, 46, 47) at Highway 407 Subway Station, and (via GO Bus Route 21) at Union Station
- TTC's Bloor-Danforth Subway (via GO Bus Route 21 and MiWay Routes 100 and 109) at Kipling Station
- Hurontario LRT (at Square One)
- TTC's Eglinton Crosstown LRT (at Renforth BRT Station)
- TTC's proposed Finch West LRT (via MiWay Route 107) at Pearson Airport and/or Humber College
- Metrolinx's proposed Air-Rail Link (via MiWay Route 107) at Pearson Airport
- Dundas RT (via MiWay route 110) at UTM and Erin Mills Parkway/Dundas Street

Hurontario LRT will connect to the following rapid transit systems:
- a truncated Brampton Transit's Main Street BRT at Downtown Brampton
- Brampton Transit's Queen Street BRT at Downtown Brampton
- Brampton Transit's Steeles Aveue BRT at Shoppers World Terminal
- GO Transit's proposed Highway 407 Transitway at Highway 407 LRT Station
- Mississauga BRT at Square One
- GO Transit's Cooksville Express Rail at Cooksville GO Station (John Street)
- Dundas RT at Dundas Street
- Lakeshore RT at Lakeshore Road
- Go Transit's Electrified Lakeshore West at Port Credit GO Station

Dundas RT will connect to the following rapid transit systems:
- TTC's Kipling Subway Station
- Hurontario LRT at Hurontario Street
- Mississauga BRT (via MiWay Route 110) at UTM and Erin Mills Parkway
- Halton Region's Trafalgar BRT at Uptown Core Terminal
- Halton Region's Dundas BRT at Uptown Core Terminal

Lakeshore RT will connect to the following rapid transit systems: (will likely be a part of Waterfront West LRT)
- GO Transit's Electrified Lakeshore West at Long Branch GO Station
- TTC's Waterfront West LRT at Long Branch
- Hurontario LRT at Port Credit

Now tell me that Mississauga is not thinking about its neighbouring systems...

Originally Posted by caltrane74

They are currently building a busway, which will be very easy to up-convert to a LRT when the demand is there.

This is a serious busway

They will have to put the City Centre segment underground first before thinking of a conversion to an LRT. When 100, 107, 109 and 110 cause congestion along the "downtown" segment, which will become evident with the LRT sharing the platforms with the BRT, then they must start thinking about the western segment, as well as putting the City Centre segment underground...

And yes, this is the first dedicated busway in the GTA that is grade-separated, a very significant piece of transit infrastructure. Hopefully, they will buff the connecting routes just like what they just did to 35/35A Eglinton, 61/61A Mavis, and 66 McLaughlin this year to support the BRT.

Originally Posted by caltrane74

Anyways, Mississauga's first LRT will go on Hurontario. I believe already approved and waiting for funding.

Only the city councils of Mississauga and Brampton currently approve of the plan. They are currently in the Preliminary Design phase, and they plan on finishing the design phase by spring next year. The provincial approval will come after they have finished the Transit Projects Assessment Process, which kicks in immediately after the end of the design phases. They are projecting for a 2014 approval. Just at that point that they will start waiting for funding.

Hopefully they are on time in this project, but judging that the BRT faces a year of delay for the opening, and a minimum of three-year delay for the full opening... as well as Brampton having issues with the project and contemplating on ending the LRT at Steeles instead... this will still be a long story. But definitely by 2020, this is already running.

Originally Posted by will_g

Why not try extending something into Mississauga?

The Waterfront West LRT is planned to go to Port Credit. If the TTC wants it truncated to Long Branch, as all the non-contractual TTC routes end at the border, then Mississauga will pick up the short segment. Which is a bad decision by the TTC's part since they'll miss a direct connection to Lakeview.

[Chadillaccc]

Well hopefully all of these apparent Mississauga promises actually come to fruition.

[caltrane74]

Second Platform Construction at Uniom Station

[Wharn]

Originally Posted by goodthings

Have you read "The Big Move" and "MoveOntario 2020"? Mississauga's and the rest of the GTA's independent transit systems are not a hindrance to the big picture in the GTA's rapid transit vision.

Just saying that they have no intention on connecting to the rest of the GTA is just plain ignorant. It's actually Toronto that doesn't want to integrate with the rest of the GTA for the following proofs:
- the TTC's antiquated transfer system do not match the time-based transfer system of the 905's, hence...
- 905ers have to pay a second fare to go the TTC, and Torontonians who take 905 systems have to pay a second fare to go to their respective 905 system, therefore to avoid confusion and unfairness...
- the TTC has duplicate routes that can otherwise be cancelled and run by the surrounding 905 systems. Presto card will definitely help solve this issue.

Thank you for telling it as it is. I'm sick and tired of people blaming the suburban operators when it's really the TTC's possessive, antiquated mindset that's holding everything back. Their commitment to the Presto card has been pathetic; 12 subway stations is a start, but we should have already been at that point back in 2010. The Province should force the TTC to come up with a plan to fully implement smartcard payment across the entire system by 2015 at the absolute latest. And then, make implementation a condition of funding.

[caltrane74]

Subway Construction at Downsview Park



http://urbantoronto.ca/forum/showthread.php/4883-Spadina-Subway-Extension-Updates/page182

From reaperexpress at UT

[MTLskyline]

Image from a study on implenting an LRT in Brossard. (Hope it isn't yellow)

http://www.informationaffaires.com/Dossiers/Le-SLR-percu-comme-une-urgence-a-Brossard.html

[Nouvellecosse]

So by light rail they mean the Docklands Light Rail type of LRT in which it's actually "light metro" as demonstrated by the Skytrain stock? Or did they just use that for the illustration due to lazy graphics people?

[Doady]

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

And they have no intention of making the sensible decision to connect themselves to the rest of the rapid transit system of the GTA. Instead just building an independent system.

Mississauga Transit has around 20 routes connect to the subway.

It's the TTC that refuses to connect to the rest of GTA. The only destinations outside the boundary of Toronto that the TTC services is the airport and Elson St. in Markham. That's pathetic.

Originally Posted by Chadillaccc

Hence why they have been debt free for 30 years, they are the largest independent city in the country without rapid transit.

The largest independent city in the country without rapid transit is Calgary.

[srperrycgy]

Originally Posted by Doady

The largest independent city in the country without rapid transit is Calgary.

WTF are you taking about? We've had an ever-expanding LRT system since May 1981.

[MTLskyline]

Originally Posted by Nouvellecosse

So by light rail they mean the Docklands Light Rail type of LRT in which it's actually "light metro" as demonstrated by the Skytrain stock? Or did they just use that for the illustration due to lazy graphics people?

I'm pretty sure that it's just a generic illustration from lazy graphics people. I just realized that this picture originally came from a 2007 study on putting an LRT over the Ice-Breaker Bridge (the media apparently still uses it as a file photo for a Brossard LRT): http://www.amt.qc.ca/docs/pdf/slr/SLR_Studies_report.pdf

[Chadillaccc]

Originally Posted by Doady

The largest independent city in the country without rapid transit is Calgary.

Yeah uhhh... dude Calgary was one of the first cities in North America to build a modern Light Rail rapid transit system, pretty sure it was second only to Edmonton.

[nname]

Originally Posted by srperrycgy

WTF are you taking about? We've had an ever-expanding LRT system since May 1981.

I think most places outside of Canada and US define rapid transit as rail transit operating on exclusive right-of-way and completely separated from other modes of transportation. Try looking up the term in dictionaries or encyclopedia and you'll see what I mean... I think Wikipedia uses this definition too.

[Nouvellecosse]

Yes, Wikipedia says: "A rapid transit, underground, subway, elevated railway, metro or metropolitan railway system is an electric passenger railway in an urban area with a high capacity and frequency, and grade separation from other traffic. Rapid transit systems are typically located either in underground tunnels or on elevated rails above street level. Outside urban centers, rapid transit lines may run on grade separated ground level tracks."