Halifax Stadium Discussion

[ILoveHalifax]

Over the last few years we have watched our provincial government spend millions buying land from the Irvings in the southwest part of the province. We have seen millions more going into the mills in Liverpool and Port Hawkesbury, millions for the Daewoo plant in Trenton. All of these expenditures on industries that are struggling. To me an investment in infastructure in Halifax, the cash cow of the whole Maritime region, would be the best use of our tax dollar. A few million for a stadium in anticipation of a CFL team would go further to put Halifax on the national map, as a great place to live and do business.

[MonctonRad]

Not to quibble, but Halifax is most certainly not a "cash cow" for NB or PEI. Since we are seperate political jurisdictions, development in Halifax does nothing for our tax bases.

Halifax is a competitor for us, not much more and certainly no less. Development in Halifax can stimulate growth throughout the region, but not so much as many people in Halifax seem to think. Growth in Halifax can be good for Moncton because we are relatively close, and lie on the main transportation route to the ROC but for many others in the region, Halifax matters less than you may think......

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by MonctonRad

Not to quibble, but Halifax is most certainly not a "cash cow" for NB or PEI. Since we are seperate political jurisdictions, development in Halifax does nothing for our tax bases.

Halifax is a competitor for us, not much more and certainly no less. Development in Halifax can stimulate growth throughout the region, but not so much as many people in Halifax seem to think. Growth in Halifax can be good for Moncton because we are relatively close, and lie on the main transportation route to the ROC but for many others in the region, Halifax matters less than you may think......

Oh my god...

ILoveHalifax never said Halifax is a cash cow for NB and PEI; he said Halifax is the cash cow of the Maritimes -- which is completely accurate.

Halifax is the largest cluster of taxpayers.
Halifax is the biggest collective of industries.
Halifax is the municipality with the most educational institutions.
Halifax is the best recognised city in the Maritimes.

Investments should be happening in Halifax because the population is here.

But sure, the city may matter less than we think. Thank you so much for reminding us...

[someone123]

Originally Posted by fenwick16

It would be interesting to see a poll taken outside Halifax. There might be more support outside HRM than people think. ...

This is a question for people living outside the HRM; do you think there would be opposition to a sensibly-priced stadium being built in the Halifax-area if it were built so that it could be expanded for the CFL?

I tend to agree. It's easy for the media to find complainers, but the fact is that a CFL team would bring something new to the region, and a big percentage of the NS population (probably 2/3 and rising) can easily get to Halifax to see games.

I am not sure why we need the approval of everyone in the province to get $20M or so of provincial money anyway, when most taxes paid in NS probably come from the Halifax area to begin with. The complainers who don't want to see money spent in Halifax aren't arguing for a fair allocation of spending, they want to create a deeply unfair situation where it's okay to collect taxes in Halifax but not okay to build infrastructure there. I think those people more often than not don't even understand this. They should be ignored.

Originally Posted by Halifax Hillbilly

From a long term, growing football perspective, I think SMU's plans for a substantial upgrade to their stadium make a lot of sense.

I agree with this too. I think there has been a false sense of urgency with the stadium issue that has led to a series of bad decisions. There doesn't appear to be any rush with the CFL and sports events like the Commonwealth Games or FIFA come around every few years. The city's growing too, so the business case for the CFL is probably just going to get better and better. For now it would be good to have a nice facility for SMU and begin careful planning of a larger stadium to be built sometime down the road.

[RyeJay]

Originally Posted by someone123

The complainers who don't want to see money spent in Halifax aren't arguing for a fair allocation of spending, they want to create a deeply unfair situation where it's okay to collect taxes in Halifax but not okay to build infrastructure there. I think those people more often than not don't even understand this. They should be ignored.

I agree with you -- but a provincial politician wanting votes cannot afford to ignore those voters.

If Mike Savage begins to more frequently advocate for a stadium, some media outlets are bound to conduct some opinion polls. I think it's fair to assume most people in Halifax are supportive of a stadium, considering how long the city has been flirting with the notion. I'm really interested in what the province thinks, though...

[MonctonRad]

Originally Posted by someone123

I think there has been a false sense of urgency with the stadium issue that has led to a series of bad decisions. There doesn't appear to be any rush with the CFL and sports events like the Commonwealth Games or FIFA come around every few years. The city's growing too, so the business case for the CFL is probably just going to get better and better. For now it would be good to have a nice facility for SMU and begin careful planning of a larger stadium to be built sometime down the road.

Very good points someone. If you are going to do this thing, take your time and do it right, especially if you are not under the time constraints imposed by building the infrastructure for a specific event (like the IAAF championships in Moncton).

[halifaxboyns]

I have to agree with someone123 as well. Time is on HRM's side - Shannon Park isn't going to be developed for the near future (likely 5 to 10 years given the land claims and site reclamation) and the DC site wasn't that great to begin with (in my opinion), but it likely will sit idle while the issue looms.

Once HRM gets closer to the 500k population mark, which I suspect will be in the next 7 years, the timing will be better.

If the party atmosphere in Toronto is any indication, I know HRM could put on an amazing Grey Cup. But we need to think strategically about what we build the stadium for. Is it just for a CFL team? Do we go big? Do we start out at 25K and make it expandable? Or do we go full out 40,000 seats and look at trying to attract other events/concerts too?

I still stand by the Shannon Park site, I think a stadium would work well there as part of a mixed use area (similar to Bishops Landing) with a harbour boardwalk and a high speed ferry terminal. But that's just me...

[wespidel]

Back from the 100th Grey Cup in Toronto) Expansion talk versus reality: Mr. Cohon the commissioner of the CFL and their eight owners and Ottawa's new ownership Group all want a 10th CFL franchise team. Ottawa coming back in the CFL with a new 150 million dollar stadium which is part of a 500 million dollar project will become a reality in 2014. But a 10th CFL team only will happen if a CFL ready made model stadium is built coupled with a solid new owner or community owned, which was outlined by Mr. Cohon at the 100th Grey Cup. Mr. Cohon did say the CFL will do a study of three markets, Quebec city, Halifax, and Moncton to see if there is potential to expand in one of these markets, to make a 10 team league. Mr. Cohon made it very clear that a new stadium would have to be a 150 to a 200 million dollar CFL scale made stadium. He also indicated that Moncton would have to spend at least a hundred million to bring their current stadium up to CFL standards.

[fenwick16]

(source: http://www.theglobeandmail.com/sports/fo...o-do-in-southern-ontario/article5585408/ )

Cohon says CFL has work to do in southern Ontario

The CFL wants to expand to Moncton, Halifax or Quebec City but the league’s immediate challenge is to shore up the still-ailing business in Hamilton and Toronto – and cash in with a richer television deal.
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The hometown Argonauts were the centre of the discussion. Cohon spoke about a long-term goal to house the Argos in a more intimate venue than the cavernous Rogers Centre, pointing to Hamilton and Ottawa whose new stadiums are a good fit for the CFL with capacity of about 24,000.
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Here is an interesting construction photo of McMahon Stadium from 1960. It might be a good idea to think in terms of something that Halifax can afford. McMahon Stadium was built with 22,000 seats for $1 million dollars in 1960 - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/McMahon_Stadium.

(source: http://www.stampeders.com/photo_gallery/gallery/id/6497 )

[someone123]

I always take sports officials with a grain of salt when they talk about how many hundreds of millions "must" be spent on facilities. It doesn't seem very realistic to expect $150-200M to be spent on a stadium in Halifax.

[roccerfeller]

^ As you noted, and as much as I do like Mr Cohon, there were some press conference optics involved in that speech

I'm sure as long as a hypothetical "22kish" (hey Hamilton's getting away with it...) stadium complete with modern amenities can be built, it doesn't need to cost 150-200MM$

Thing is the stadium needs to make sense, so that positive cash flow can be generated, and it needs to be something that can hang around for at least several decades. If that is what a 150MM$ stadium brings then that might change things.

However, I'm certain that, with a smart budget, it could be made cheaper than that.

There was some serious interest in Quebec city a few years ago but that fizzled out and currently they've spent/will spend a ton of $$ on an arena to woo the NHL back.

Timescale-wise, Halifax or Moncton might be more realistic. And would certainly have more meaning, being more "coast-coast"

But it seems to me all three of those markets would be strong for football fan support. Quebec City draws some of the best CIS crowds and football is popular on a grade school and college level in Atlantic Canada not seen elsewhere in the country.


But a stadium is only part of the picture; who would own it? Community could be feasible. If Regina can do it, what's stopping Halifax?

[wespidel]

Hopefully he remains on as Mayor, to bring this to fruition. Bob Young, owner of the Tiger-cats couldn't make money in a bare boned outdated stadium. That is why a brand new stadium is being built in Hamilton. Both Ottawa's and Hamilton's are similar in what they need in a stadium, to be a successful CFL franchise, which is a minimum of 24 to 25 thousand permanent seats between the goal lines, with the ability to expand to over 40 thousand to host a Grey Cup game. This is the bare minimum capacity currently allowed by the CFL to host a Grey Cup. Mr. Cohon wants to showcase the Grey Cup in the smaller stadiums as well, in the CFL. Mr. Cohon's CFL scale model he is referring to, must also consist of 35 to 45 skyboxes, VIP lounges, Club seats, open faced concourses with permanent concessions stands and washrooms with HD monitors, HD Jumbo video screens, ribbons, restaurants, shops, modern high tech press boxes, medical and rehab facilities, a training facility, etc. All which Ottawa, Hamilton, Winnipeg, and Regina's will have and more! Halifax is too big of a potential CFL market to build a small bare boned 10 to 14 thousand permanent seat facility, with only one concourse with permanent concession stands and washrooms, and with no other amenities, and only expandable to 25 or 27 thousand total in the endzones. This is what you get for 60 or 70 million today. If Halifax can build a 160 million dollar much bigger and better convention centre than they can at least do the same for a brand new state of the art stadium. I believe and many more residents of HRM believe that Halifax should wait until they are prepared to treat a stadium project with a lot more respect than their proposed steering committee's previously stadium model that was not supported by the majority of the public. Halifax this time around should rethink this and build it right. And build a major CFL ready made model stadium, that can attract the 10th CFL franchise owner and a major naming right partner that go hand and hand, to make Halifax the sports and entertainment capital of the Atlantic Region, which Halifax should want to be!

[cormiermax]

Isn't Mayor Ford gone for good?

[wespidel]

Originally Posted by cormiermax

Isn't Mayor Ford gone for good?

Mayor Ford will appeal Dec.5th!

[cormiermax]

Originally Posted by wespidel

Mayor Ford will appeal Dec.5th!

Hopefully that'll fail.

[isaidso]

Originally Posted by someone123

I always take sports officials with a grain of salt when they talk about how many hundreds of millions "must" be spent on facilities. It doesn't seem very realistic to expect $150-200M to be spent on a stadium in Halifax.

If it's not realistic for Halifax to spend that much, the conclusion is that Halifax isn't ready for pro football. The league isn't going to go down market just to bring a 10th team on board. If a city wants in they need to attain a minimum set out by said league.

I've been longing for a CFL team in Halifax for 30 years, but Halifax isn't ready for CFL, it isn't ready.

[halifaxboyns]

Originally Posted by someone123

I always take sports officials with a grain of salt when they talk about how many hundreds of millions "must" be spent on facilities. It doesn't seem very realistic to expect $150-200M to be spent on a stadium in Halifax.

I don't know if I agree. It seems to me that if we are going to build a facility that will be multi-purpose (meaning not just for sports but say concerts, soccer and other functions) then depending on how much the 'extras' are, it could easily be $100 million. Specially if the idea is to build in the 35,000 seat range or be expandable?

[FuzzyWuz]

Originally Posted by isaidso

If it's not realistic for Halifax to spend that much, the conclusion is that Halifax isn't ready for pro football. The league isn't going to go down market just to bring a 10th team on board. If a city wants in they need to attain a minimum set out by said league.

They must have a minimum but it need not be expressed in dollars. We have seen some pretty wild differences in what can be done for a given amount of money. I keep thinking of information Fenwick has provided on Infocision stadium, for instance. Why can't we build something of that size for under $100 million if they did it for $60 million or so? At the least it shows how much can be done for a given amount of money.

[wespidel]

After Mr. Cohon made the comment that Moncton would have to spend 100 million to bring their small 8,500 permanent seat stadium up to CFL standards to have any chance to attract a CFL franchise. He also said he was concerned about potential corporate money in Moncton, and their 125,000 thousand base population, to attract season tickets holders. Mr. Cohon also said that Hamilton may not play a game in Moncton while their new stadium is being built in 2013 because of the cost of 1.5 to two million to set up and tear down a make shift temporarily structure of more than half of the 20 thousand seats that are all in the endzones. Unfortunately Halifax's small bare boned proposed stadium has a similar concept of only 10 to 14 thousand permanent seats between the goal lines but not expandable unless expanded in the endzones, but only to a total of 25 to 27 thousand. These two stadiums will never attract a CFL owner because they will never mean the CFL standards because you need a minimum of 24 to 25 thousand permanent seats between the goal lines with all the most modern necessary amenities needed in a stadium today to be viable, and the ability to expand to at least 45 thousand to host a Grey Cup which every CFL owner need have and wants!

[isaidso]

Agree. A stadium like that might cut it in the Maritimes, but it's just not going to fly in the CFL. Hopeful host cities need to look around the league to see what they need to do to attract a franchise. Vancouver spent half a billion just on a renovation, for God's sake.

Originally Posted by wespidel

Halifax this time around should rethink this and build it right. And build a major CFL ready made model stadium, that can attract the 10th CFL franchise owner and a major naming right partner that go hand and hand, to make Halifax the sports and entertainment capital of the Atlantic Region, which Halifax should want to be!

Agree. Halifax wants to be that city, but thus far hasn't been willing to invest the money required to fill that role. Being a CFL city does carry a level of cache because it requires a certain level of scale, support, infrastructure, etc. If Halifax wants to be a CFL city, it needs to step up to the plate.

The CFL might not be wealthy like the NFL, but it's still a league with billion dollar stadia, host cities with 2 million+ people, and a championship watched by 13 million people. A pitiful 14,000 seat bare bones stadium isn't going to get Halifax a darn thing.