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  #1  
Old Posted Nov 24, 2012, 10:43 PM
go_leafs_go02 go_leafs_go02 is offline
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What would Vancouver be if the Border wasn't at the 49th Parallel

It's an interesting concept, or conversation to be honest. If the US-Canada border was at the 48th or 50th parallel, how different would the geography of BC/Vancouver area be?

Please assume that Vancouver Island remains Canadian.

For an idea, if the border was located at 1 degree further north, Vancouver, Squamish, would all be part of the USA, although the location of Whistler would remain in Canada. Even Powell River is south of the 50th parallel. There is no real easy access to get to the Georgia Straight. Even cities like Kelowna would be located in American territory.

Flip it around to the border being at the 48th parallel, and suddenly, cities like Bellingham, Burlington, and land to just north of Everett, WA would be Canadian.

So the challenge is yours. What would Vancouver be, if the Treaty of Oregon in 1846 had decided the USA border to be located at any place 1 degree north or south of the existing 49th parallel?
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  #2  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 12:05 AM
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One Degree South :

Development up until the 1980's 1990's would be much the same. The early development was centred around Vancouver Harbour and expanded south and east so perhaps as South Surrey and Abbotsford's expansion become more and more influenced by the border, the densification of these two area will be the first major developmental influences of the border and in the years moving forward the shape of our southern suburbs will take on a linear 'border' effect not seen before. If the 48th was, therefore, our border, South Surrey, Abbotsford and Langley expansion would drift south in a more organic form and likely far less dense. The 49th will ultimately be the driving influence in the density of many of our southern areas moving forward.

It would likely also mean less cross border shopping too and less of a drain on greater Vancouver retail.

Bellingham, being a natural harbour, would likely be Metro Vancouver's second port city and have far greater importance and likely be far larger and more economically vital, there perhaps would have been no Deltaport as a result. The principal ferry terminal would likely be in the Bellingham area as well providing a more direct route to Victoria and the deep water harbour would have allowed more direct access to a north-south freeway such as present day I-5 ( 99 ).

Geographically, Greater Vancouver would have also benefitted greatly from having the complete Fraser Valley and not just the northern portion, giving us a far greater area of valuable farmland, that plus the Skagit Valley would have made coastal BC a major agriculture producer.
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Last edited by connect2source; Nov 25, 2012 at 1:01 AM.
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Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 12:39 AM
go_leafs_go02 go_leafs_go02 is offline
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If, the border was further north at the 50th parallel, I would almost guarantee that the Sea to Sky corridor would be undeveloped, and I-5, or whatever it would be, would have been constructed along Harrision Lake north towards Pemberton, and Pemberton/Whistler would be somewhat significant, although still land locked as the Lions Bay would be fully American (Squamish is south of the 50th parallel)
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Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 1:01 AM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vkDIml_Ibp...map_copy_1.jpg

Unrelated a bit, but this one always burns my ass. The San Juan Islands, including Point Roberts, should have been Canadian.
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  #5  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 7:24 AM
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Originally Posted by trofirhen View Post

http://1.bp.blogspot.com/_vkDIml_Ibp...map_copy_1.jpg

Unrelated a bit, but this one always burns my ass. The San Juan Islands, including Point Roberts, should have been Canadian.
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Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 3:38 PM
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Does anyone know, what is the general feeling among residents of Point Roberts. Would the people there prefer being part of Canada or are they enjoying their special status and the best of both countries?
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Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 4:36 PM
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The loss of the Fraser Valley would really make it difficult to see the region as one country. I would imagine Victoria would be much larger, and maybe even Vancouver Island would remain a separate British commonwealth country.

The border should be the Columbia river (current border between WA and OR) though. Then maybe the other Vancouver would be Canada's largest west coast city.

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Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
Does anyone know, what is the general feeling among residents of Point Roberts. Would the people there prefer being part of Canada or are they enjoying their special status and the best of both countries?
I believe no one was there before the border settlement and therefore the majority is fine with status quo (unless they've started hating what Vancouverites have become, like many people in Bellingham).

Last edited by Pinion; Nov 25, 2012 at 5:09 PM.
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  #8  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 5:52 PM
trofirhen trofirhen is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
Does anyone know, what is the general feeling among residents of Point Roberts. Would the people there prefer being part of Canada or are they enjoying their special status and the best of both countries?


Interestingly, this point was raised on television news many years back, when examining the plight of Pt Roberts high school students who have to be bussed to Blaine.

Despite the hassle, they, and most citizens and civic leaders in Pt Roberts said they much preferred the idea of staying American.

Last edited by trofirhen; Nov 25, 2012 at 7:16 PM.
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  #9  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 7:03 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Klazu View Post
Does anyone know, what is the general feeling among residents of Point Roberts. Would the people there prefer being part of Canada or are they enjoying their special status and the best of both countries?
Well, considering that a good chunk of the permanent population of Point Roberts is American, they'd obviously wanna remain part of the U.S.

Another good chunk of the permanent population of Point Roberts also comprise those with dual Canadian/American citizenship.

And a somewhat confidential factoid... ~5% of the permanent population of Point Roberts falls under the U.S. Marshal's Witness Protection Program. Seriously.

As an aside, poster Dave2 linked a 1952 Vancouver Sun article from another thread, which included this contemplated tidbit from the then Lower Mainland Regional Planning Board:

Quote:
Leasing of Point Roberts from the U.S. for 99 or 999 years
http://news.google.com/newspapers?id...=1073%2C130430
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  #10  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 8:01 PM
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Originally Posted by Stingray2004 View Post
...And a somewhat confidential factoid... ~5% of the permanent population of Point Roberts falls under the U.S. Marshal's Witness Protection Program. Seriously. ...
Well just about anyone that wants to go there would have to drive through two Canada/US border crossings. So it's not a bad place to put people like that. Unless someone is prepared to use a boat to go across, not too many people will be coming after you.
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  #11  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 8:08 PM
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Originally Posted by Pinion View Post
The loss of the Fraser Valley would really make it difficult to see the region as one country. I would imagine Victoria would be much larger, and maybe even Vancouver Island would remain a separate British commonwealth country.

The border should be the Columbia river (current border between WA and OR) though. Then maybe the other Vancouver would be Canada's largest west coast city.



I believe no one was there before the border settlement and therefore the majority is fine with status quo (unless they've started hating what Vancouverites have become, like many people in Bellingham).


Just curious as to how you came to this opinion.
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  #12  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 9:24 PM
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Just curious as to how you came to this opinion.
Weather, for one. The Portland area is heaven compared to anywhere in Canada, including Vancouver - which currently gets a lot of immigration due to being the most mild big city in Canada.

Also it would be near the US border while Vancouver would be looked at the same way we look at Prince Rupert currently - ok maybe not that bad, but it becomes a lot less strategically important.

A Columbia river-based western port city would be more convenient all around. It may not be an extraordinary location by US standards, but it would be the place to be for Canadians. There's a reason why 90% of us are smushed up against the border as it is.
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  #13  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 9:32 PM
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Interesting. Given your scenario, I think Vancouver, WA would be more of a border type town, similar to maybe Windsor or Niagara Falls, where it has some "significance", but not much. If anything, given it's location to the sea with abundant shipping opportunities, Seattle would be Canada's largest Western Canadian city, followed by Vancouver, BC (assuming Vancouver also used it's proximity to the sea for shipping). I don't think weather would affect that significantly.


I just couldn't see Vancouver, WA being hypothetically the largest city in Western Canada if it were right on the border with the US. Other than timber exports, there's not much in the area.
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  #14  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 9:40 PM
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I agree, I would see Seattle, BC being the largest city, with Vancouver, BC being a relatively small port like Prince Rupert or something, if the Columbia River was the border.

Under my scenario, with the 48th paralllel, Bellingham or even Mt. Vernon would be several million people. Bellingham would be a huge port and our ferry terminal to Victoria would be on Anacortes.
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Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 9:42 PM
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There are actually many interesting scenarios that could have played out.

The one I often think about it what would have happened to Canada if the US gained control over the entire Oregon Territory (BC all the way to 54 40) which is what they claimed at one point.

That would have left Canada with a tiny sliver of access to the Pacific Ocean.

The other is if the Gulf Islands and Vancouver Island became US territory, as once proposed (the US wanted to continue the 49th border through the Island). Then everything on Van island south of Nanaimo and Tofino would have been US. Victoria as an American city would honestly make me sad.

Of course, I wish the British fought a little harder and the Columbia River was the border, or at least we got 1 more degree south (as proposed on this thread).
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Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 10:25 PM
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If the border were drawn on the 48th parallel, there'd be another Point Roberts-type issue, but this time in reverse: the northern part of Everett, WA (Google Maps calls it "Northwest Everett" and "Delta") would be in Canada, though it would be accessible by way of a bridge across the estuary.

As it is, there is another such feature on the current border at 117.5W just southeast of Trail formed by the final miles of the Pend-d'Oreille River.

I believe that the British surveyors had noticed the Point Roberts issue and had proposed swapping it with the Pend-d'Oreille loop but to no avail.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pinion View Post
The loss of the Fraser Valley would really make it difficult to see the region as one country. I would imagine Victoria would be much larger, and maybe even Vancouver Island would remain a separate British commonwealth country.

The border should be the Columbia river (current border between WA and OR) though. Then maybe the other Vancouver would be Canada's largest west coast city.
I agree partly on this. East of the Rockies the original pre-War of 1812 border was the watershed between Hudson's Bay and the Mississippi. If that had remained as the border rather than the 1818 Treaty border of the 49th parallel (which was easier to survey in the eastern Prairies than the watershed), then the border would have ended in the Montana Rockies at Triple Divide Peak in what is now Glacier National Park. The logical border west of that point would have been to follow the "main channel" of the water flowing down from the west side of Triple Divide Peak to the Pacific (the notion of a "main channel" is admittedly a bit absurd on the side of a peak, but once you get down into the nearest valley and the first stream, it makes sense afterwards).

Such a border route would follow, appropriately enough, Pacific Creek off the west side of Triple Divide Peak into Nyack Creek, then along the Middle Fork of the Flathead River, naturally enough the Flathead River and across Flathead Lake, then down the Clark Fork into Lake Pend Oreille (which would probably be Lake Pend d'Oreille instead) and the aforementioned Pend-d'Oreille River and finally down the Columbia.

That would have given us some of northwestern Montana, the current border area of Idaho north of Lake Pend Oreille and all of Washington west of the Columbia. In exchange, we would not have the Pend d'Oreille loop. On the prairies we'd gain most of North Dakota, part of South Dakota, northwest Minnesota and northeast Montana while losing part of the Cypress Hills area of southeast Alberta and southwest Saskatchewan that drain into the Missouri River (e.g. the Milk River).


The way I see it, once the border across the Prairies was established as the 49th, the 49th came to have a logic all its own. In that context, making the Columbia the border from around Trail downstream would have just left the American side feeling robbed of what is now western Washington. But if the border across the Prairies has been the watershed line, then logic would strongly dictate just following the course of the water down to the Pacific, especially since this would result in the natural border of the Columbia forming a long part of the border anyway.
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  #17  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 10:54 PM
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I just couldn't see Vancouver, WA being hypothetically the largest city in Western Canada if it were right on the border with the US. Other than timber exports, there's not much in the area.
Being on the border is a bonus, not a detriment. You're our largest trading partner. Trade to asia would be easier. As it is, we have our largest port almost sticking into US territory: http://goo.gl/maps/39AEW

Vancouver WA is on the mouth of a major river much like Vancouver BC and the Fraser. Maybe a more apt comparison is Vancouver WA would be Canada's San Francisco, and Vancouver BC would be Canada's Portland. There's little reason for Vancouver BC to be as big as it is now if western Washington was our territory, and Seattle probably wouldn't have any reason for growing larger than a logging town.
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Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 11:09 PM
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I don't think having hundreds of cargo ships navigating ~90 miles/145 KMs of the Columbia each month is ideal.



Vancouver, WA is far from the coast. Sure, it's on a major river, but it's too far inland to be a practical port city.



The mouth of the Columbia is located nearly 90 miles/145 KMs to the West, in Astoria, OR.



Seattle on the other hand has incredibly easy access to the Pacific Ocean with no narrow rivers to navigate, same goes for Vancouver, BC.



Which of these 3 geographical areas looks most feasible for shipping?








The San Francisco comparison doesn't really make sense, since Vancouver, WA and Vancouver, BC are 304 miles/491 KMs apart. San Francisco and the surrounding Bay Area are huge because of their shipping facilities. The reason why those areas grew so quickly many decades ago was because of their access to the trade and immigration routes across the Pacific.
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Last edited by Derek; Nov 25, 2012 at 11:23 PM.
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  #19  
Old Posted Nov 25, 2012, 11:55 PM
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48th parallel is the most idealistic, more land, less pricey

and then u'd never know where downtown would be located, maybe in white rock?
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  #20  
Old Posted Nov 26, 2012, 12:10 AM
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48th parallel is the most idealistic, more land, less pricey

and then u'd never know where downtown would be located, maybe in white rock?
I doubt it. Downtown Vancouver would probably be in the same place due to the land treaty between John Deighton and Van Horn during construction of the CP Rail. Also, Vancouver's natural port is better than anything near to White Rock.

I bet you're right in a way though. Metro Vancouver might have a much larger population, therefore a larger footprint if we weren't hemmed in by the border.
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